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Holy overreactions to one bad game Batman! Lol
This is an extremely young team.
People need to check expectations.
If this is happening in late January or later I will be concerned.
Games like this happen. See Miami and the Clippers.
Mama said there would be days like this...
lmao, it's not having a projection on a player based on college/NBA games, it's completely changing your projection prematurely because the guy didn't play the way you wanted in a 27 game sample. Like c'mon, stop stretching the truth to fit your agenda, I'm sure Dae requires at least a season sample of college games to make definitive judgements on players... like we all do. Obviously players can ultimately exceed or undermine those expectations coming into the NBA... but the guy's 20 and hasn't played 30 professional games. Just stop.Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara
The real difference to me this game seemed to be 3pt and free throw shooting. It was ugly to watch. Well below expected averages. Two games in a row is a bit concerning, but I dont think we shoot 12% from 3 on the season.
Yeah, the thing that MM seems to have missed here is that I do not, nor does any competent draft person, try to say that I have the ultimate definitive reading on 30+ players every year. You watch games, sample sizes that might end up being as many as 50 games or more, and you try to construct a range of potential outcomes based on the evidence you have (always being aware that there is a limitation there) and, using examples of past players and your own subjective judgement, you try to come up with a good estimate of whereabouts a player is likely to fall in those outcomes. There are some predictions which are pretty firm, if the indicators are strong and there's a surplus of evidence, and there are some predictions which are very loose, but I don't thing that I can tell you precisely what a player definitely will be or anything. I can just tell you what I think seems likely.
And also, I think it's quite telling that MM's summary of draft scouting is ''some AAU games and a handful of college games''. In many cases it's more like AAU, FIBA, shoe circuits, and then most or all of their college play; it's not like anyone said Zion, for example, was the number 1 pick off the back of 4 college games and a highlight reel. Sorry, but it's a bit more involved than that.
Basketball.
This is where I stand as well
CAW CAW!!!
-Founder and valuable member of the Caw Caw Boyz-
Right....and I have an opinion on what I think is a LIKELY outcome for Zion but by no means did I say it is certain. But since its not positive, the pushback is "How dare you say what he will be, we only have 30 games!!!""
Do you get my point now?
I have projected what I think hundreds of players futures might look like in the past 10 years or so and never have I had so much vitriol sent my way as when I said what I think Zion is likely to be. And the response is always some form of "you cant even have an educated guess, he has only played X games!!!"
Okay, then we certainly cant have opinions on prospects moving forward, right?
@mcnamara247
I've seen very similar vitriol before. It was (some times still is) aimed at me about Anthony Davis. People can't take a different take on situations without taking it personally.
Mac, pay no heed. The reason some lash out at you is because they see exactly what you see. But, some are so invested in their 'idol worship' that they can't bring themselves to admitting the obvious truth. To date, based on all pre-draft hype, Zion has failed miserably. This is not to suggest he won't ever be serviceable (he already is serviceable at some level); it only means any sign of 'Superstardom' can't be tied only to his brute strength alone. You have to, at least, be able to play the game, in total, lest you are simply a specialist (see JJ Redick, Dennis Rodman, or Julius Randall for clarification).
This. And I think the organization is more responsible for Zion's slight disappointment more than the young man himself.
We played him when he clearly wasn't 100% last year. And he's clearly not as quick laterally @280ish as he was at 265ish.
It's better to let gifted players just dominate the ball and be gifted. Trae, Luka, Ja, are just 3 examples in the last 3 years where the franchise just turned the team over to a player and let those guys be special.
Wth are yall talking about? No dribble moves? He has consistently and successfully used both a behind-the-back and in-and-out dribble move in his first 30 ish games in this league. Are you going blind when he does this at least twice every game? During the preseason he went right and finished righty against 3 defenders and scored. We talked about that. Offensively, he is FAR FAR ahead of where AD was after just 30 NBA games.
Jesus Christ I gotta avoid this place.
Dang, he hasn't been looking great, but it's just been four games. I believe in the kid, sometimes I wonder though if the injuries really got to him mentally and physically. Defensively he's been disappointing, yet I mean AD wasn't the guy that helped dude win a ring, 20 something games in either. I'm seeing bad tendencies and inconsistencies so far, but I'll give him time to figure it out. I think he will, if not then back to the lottery. lol
His scoring has been there though so that's great imo.
R.I.P. to HunnyB/FlyGirl
Again, nobody is saying he will be a bum. Or to not give him time.
He will be good. But I dont think he has a chance to be that top level (Lebron, peak KD, Kobe, etc).... a guy who could be THE man in 4 playoff series. I dont think he can get there. I think it is a very small chance he gets to current Giannis level. Thats all I am saying -- if you would have asked me when we drafted him, I would have thought that TOP tier was possible. Now, I simply dont. Too many red flags to think that level is possible IMO
This is what happens when the pels are .500 btw.
Better hope they don't get blown out again, I'd hate to see this place during 2-3.
Interesting Read...
https://sports.yahoo.com/m/75ce3181-...A-insider.html
Remember when I used to post a dumpster on fire for every game below 500 we were? Good times.
Now we are 2-2 with a new coach and a completely different approach to the game as last years coach. With our longest tenured players being Zion and then the Lakers players. We lose a game like this and this thread has everything from blow it up to now Zion will never be more than a decent player.
You folks are worth it for the laughs!
He does the in and out dribble at least twice a game and loses the handle on it almost every time. It worked against the Spurs for the first time in a while. He also doesn't seem to have any counters if someone cuts off his initial plan which far too often results in a charge, fumbled ball, or off target pass. Again, he has so much time to develop and I still err on the side thinking that he'll harness his unfathomable potential. But I think a lot of us were hoping he'd come out of this (admittedly very weird) offseason with noticeable improvements in his game. And I can't really point to any.
again, four games. jesus christ
No he doesnt lose the handle almost every time. How can you score at the rate he does and "lose the handle on it almost every time"?
You obviously go blind the countless times he's scored with it, then can suddenly see again when he doesnt. How do you think he gets to the foul line so often?
He has proven numerous times that he can score unassisted to the point that this whole argument is beyond stupid.
And just to put a cap on it, Zion is averaging 21 points and 41% of his buckets are unassisted. Anthony Davis, over the course of a full year, has never been above 37%, which just happened last year. AD's 8th year in the league.
Last edited by luckyman; 12-30-2020 at 10:11 PM.
He's always going to be an incredibly productive offensive player because he's huge, ungodly athletic, and has a blinding first step. That's how he scores at the rate he does and gets fouled all the time. Not through advanced dribble moves. Which, for like the 4th time, is fine! There are basically no other humans on earth who can do what he does on a basketball court and if he never improves a single skill for the rest of his career, he'll still probably end up averaging 20/10. But, there are multiple higher levels for him to reach that aren't available to many players and in order to reach those, he needs to improve on a lot. That's all I'm saying.
I posted the stats yesterday and said them on my pod. When he catches the ball on the move (on a cut), he almost always finishes. However, when he iso's and drives from a triple threat or a post possession, he is awful. Like worse than Austin Rivers in those situations first two years bad. High turnover rate, and shoots under 35% in the paint. Its really, really bad.
He also scores a very high percentage of his points when the game doesnt matter and/or isnt close. These are just objective facts. And when you present objective facts that tell fans that one of the top players on their team is great, they love hearing those facts. But when you share them and they are negative, we just dont want to hear it and will attack the people presenting those facts. Or write them off as abberations, flukes, cold streaks, etc.
But go pick any game and watch it from this year -- watch him try to iso or post up when he is not on the move and doesnt have the advantage on the defender. He will either get blocked or slip or lose the handle or put up something ugly 7-8 out of 10 times. Everyone knows his one move and when he is in a triple threat position or in the post, they just overplay his left shoulder and know he is going to the rim. Wish it wasnt true, but it is. And its a shame we cant talk about it more objectively
I mean, you're trying to tell us to remove the pre-draft evaluation, but that evaluation matters, particularly for a guy that, again, as much as you don't want to hear it, hasn't played a full season's worth of games in the NBA. It has nothing to do with idol worship, I'm sure most would have the same reservations projecting a low ceiling prospect into, say a superstar, based on a 30 game sample in the NBA. I think it would be fair to say that we shouldn't jump to conclusions in that instance either, right? Not when we have a much more comprehensive data set to fall back on (entire pre-NBA career)? And cut it out with the victimhood, no one here is sending you vitriol for your views. If you want to be an edgelord and assert that your projection of a player still in his infancy in the NBA is valid, go ahead. No one cares. It's when you go on to assert that everyone who doesn't think like you is biased that you deserve to, rightfully, be clowned.
Except that's not true. He scores with advanced dribble moves about as much as you can ask a PF. Especially this early in his career. He's not a guard.
Yet he is being compared to Austin Rivers, a guard, at age 20, after only having played 1/3 of a full NBA season.
I'm done with it. I'm out of headache pills.
Last edited by luckyman; 12-30-2020 at 10:20 PM.
garbage troll take, per usual with you.
Show me anywhere I ever wrote to remove your pre-draft evaluation. I never told a single soul to do anything.
I said what my evaluation is. And for some reason that gets people fired up. My gut is because, deep down, people are afraid I am right and probably kinda know it themselves.
But I never told anybody to do anything. Unless you tell me I cant evaluate a guy after 30 games. Then, by that logic, none of us can have a prediction on a human being who has played less than 30 NBA games. And if everyone agrees to that, I am cool. I will remove my Zion prediction.
c'mon man. At least check your posts before you assert you've never said things you obviously said.
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