Kenrich is on a full contract
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Kenrich is on a full contract
Are they going to add some good.players to that, at all?Originally Posted by P_B_&_G
Basketball.
I think the reason some people, including me, value Frank and Kenrich about Ball and Ingram is simple.
We have a very small sample size of Frank and Kenrich, in which they have been quite good and very promising.
We have a massive sample size of Ball and Ingram, in which they have been very poor and disappointing.
Take Kenrich and Ingram, for example. Kenrich averages only 3.5 points and 2.8 rebounds per game, but he's also only been allowed to play in 17 games, only 11 minutes a game, with very little consistency. He's been in and out of the lineup whenever it suits Gentry, and has been far from a priority.
Ingram, in comparison, has been in 42 games this year, started all of them, and is averaging 34 minutes per game with regularity. So if you want to make any kind of practical comparison, you can only really do so in the eye test, and in the advanced stats which adjust for minutes and possessions.
I'm going to do a fun little game, and list two player's stats per 100 possessions, plus their advanced stats:
Player A: 24pts, 6.8 rebounds, 4.2 assists. 48% from the floor and 32% from three. Net rating of -9, usage rating of 23%, 0.048 win shares per 48 minutes, -2.7 OBPM, -0.3 DBPM, -0.3 VORP.
Player B: 15 points, 11.7 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 49% from the floor and 40% from three. Net rating of -5, usage rating of 13.4%, 0.056 win shares per 48 minutes, -2.3 OBPM, -1.5DBPM, -0.1 VORP.
Now it's actually not very clear who's the better player. Like, player A averages more points and assists, sure, but he's way less efficient and has a much higher usage rating. Player B has the worse defensive box plus minus, but the better net rating and his value over replacement player is higher. There are arguments to be made for both, based on stats when adjusted to take the volume of play out of the equation.
Player A is Ingram, player B is Kenrich. It's actually not clear, when you totally remove name-recognition and adjust for minutes which player is better. And I would go further to say that actually, because of his fractured minutes and irregular opportunities, this measure is still somewhat unkind to Kenrich, as he's had games where he's come in and tallied 0 points in 1 minute and 30 seconds or whatever, which adds games to his total but no real statistical benefit.
I mentioned it because there are new reports that claim "sauces" say the Pels are going to counter the Lakers offers with all of their young guys, except Hart wasn't mentioned, plus 2 firsts and they would have to take back another player which I assume would be Solo. But another team would need to be involved for it to work since the Lakers can't take back all of that salary.
The Knicks offer actually gets better without Porzingis. Porzingis is a big risk because of his injury, whereas DSJ + Dallas picks is actually money in the bank
Big ''if'' there, to start off your point. Anyway, sure, if Lonzo develops a shot then perspectives change, but his shot right now is absolutely broken. He's shooting 32% from three, and that's being considered a bright spot for him. That's a real worry, especially when a lot of his value coming out of college was based on the fact that ''it looks weird, but it goes in''. Well, it doesn't go in. Maybe one day it will go on, but you can't base an Anthony Davis trade around the hopes that maybe one day, one of the players involved will learn how to play the other half of basketball. He's a solid defender with a lot of promise on that end, but ''lockdown'' is going a little bit far. I agree he would learn from Jrue on that end pretty well.
He's not the PG version of simmons. Simmons is the PG version of Simmons, and is a better player by a factor of about 10.
I thought we weren't doing the 1 game comparison thing? The fact is, we have over 140 Ingram games to look at at an NBA level. Sure, he's young, but so are a lot of other rookies and young players who are just blatantly better. Ingram could improve, sure, but just assuming that one day he'll be a PG13 level player requires so much assumption that it's bordering on the absurd. This is a player who has been a net negative on the court all three years of his career, is lauded as a potential shooter but shoots 32% from three on his career, can't and won't defend anyone unlike those two players you listed, and appears to have very little IQ.
He is not on pace to be an allstar, at all. Not even close. If he continues to ''improve'' at this rate, in two years he'll be averaging 19 points a game and shooting sub -30% from three yet again (he's already done that once in his career and is on pace to do so again this year).
Such an ideal stretch 4 that he's shooting 30% from three as well. Also, not sure if you've noticed this, but Kuzma is strictly a one way player. He cannot defend anyone, hasn't showed much interest in defending anyone, doesn't play team defense either. Klay Thompson is an electric shooter, but a large amount of his value comes from the fact that he is willing, and very able, to defend anyone from 6'9 and downwards. He's a very talented two way player, with a huge amount of value. Kuzma might end up being that good, sure, but he's about to turn 24 so he doesn't have the youth excuse that someone like Ingram does. If he doesn't care about defense today, and didn't care for his last 126 games, I don't see why we're supposed to hang an AD trade on the idea that maybe one day he will.
There is one thing we can agree on though: Bol Bol is the future. We can still be friends because of that.
Any way we can pry Phoenix's first from them in a three way? Maybe send them Ball, Ingram and Solo? They would be dumb to do it but hey, you never know. AD to the Lakers and maybe filler from the Suns. Kuzma, Hart, Zubac, and the Lakers first plus the Phoenix first to the Pels.
It doesn't really make sense for the Suns unless they covet one of the Lakers players.
I love that. The Lakers players are so whatever that in order to deal with them, we've have to get a third team to supply the most attractive part of the deal, and still somehow that third team is supposed to want those same players we aren't willing to take on their own.
What about Phoenix's 1st and Booker for AD? Again, doubtful they would do it because it would certainly be a rental. But again, you never know. I'm not sure if its enough for AD with what other teams are possibly offering.
I think unless you get back an all star level player it either needs to be a sure fire top 3 pick and some young talent or young talent and multiple firsts. That's why I like the Knicks and Celts assets more than the Lakers.
What other teams might have some talent to throw in with a possible top 3 pick?
Chicago for their pick and Markkanen, and Levine
Cleveland doesn't have anything but the pick
The best option surely is to wait and see where the picks fall.
Zion and some other youngsters would be sweet!
See that's the thing. All the people talking about Ingram and Bell over Frank and Kendrich have to back it up with, "If this happens then this player is superior."
Yes if the guy shooting 40% from the FT becomes a 40% 3pt shooter instead he's better.
The entire point of it was let's look at specifically with what we see ON THE COURT and take names and all that stuff out of it. None of our young guys were getting run while we were trying to compete but now we can actually see them with extended minutes.
A lot of people are unable to pull the name away from the players and just evaluate what they see. The point of the exercise was to show a lot of the value of these Laker players are wrapped up in a name because they've failed so drastically that a 2nd round pick and an undrafted guy can even be CLOSE to them in conversation.
I’d take that today , I like the young guys that organization has been in turmoil since they got there in a big market with all the pressure on them and they’re young if you think that those players won’t improve then you don’t know basketball . Look we’re not going to get equal value for AD it’s about building a solid team and depth and get rid of some of these G league scrubs we got on this roster not everything you do is going be based on getting all stars .
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You know, Dell Demps may not be the ideal GM, but seeing the kinds of trades people propose, the kinds of moves they prefer, the speed with which they're willing to cave to subpar offers, he looks better and better every day.
the lakers need to offer ball,,ingram,,hart,,kuzma,,zubac,,,a third or 4th team involved,,a 1st...for AD and hill right now......as much as i like the lakers players over boston,,,i still would wait until after the top 6 free agents sign to teams to trade AD...
it has gone so deep to where posters are saying frank and williams are better than ball and ingram lol.......frank has caved under the pressure in both games against GS....i dont think ball or ingram caved against them...before he got hurt,,ball played good defense against curry because of his length......ingram has length to guard SF...both can be good 2 way players...
You make the Lakers trade and then you have a ton of Eric Gordons again.
Lonzo has already stated he wants no part of us. Why in GODS NAME do we want to go through that again?
People keep forgetting this. We’ll have to trade him off and teams will lowball the crap out of us because he hasn’t set the world alight at all. I said it before, it was his comments that hurt the Lakers the most from the getgo
Hahahaha. No, fellas. You guys have just been on the anti-Lakers stance so long you are starting to see mirages.
Again, I'd still go Boston or NY over the Laker trade. I'd probably even prefer a mystery team over the LAL deal. I don't think anyone prefers the Lakers trade as tops. We're just pointing out how ridiculous and radical people are getting against it.
EXACTLY!
No trading for Lonzo. In fact, have Jrue suffocate Lonzo next time we play just to make a point.
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Don’t be like that. Did you forget how hard everyone was pushing the narrative that we had to trade to the Lakers before the deadline? No need to be contrarian for the sake of it.
From Lonzo's track record, the best way to suffocate him is just to let him shoot uncontested threes. He'll go 3 of 11 and people will call him the next Magic Johnson some more.
I don't think some of you actually watch other teams play. I know it's hard to do, but there is no way you could actually watch other teams play and walk away with the same impression of all these players. I concede that if I had to chose today, I'd take Tatum, but only because he seems safer. It's actually close between him and Ingram. Ingram's ceiling is higher, but Tatum seems steadier. Ball is a better PG than Smart or Rozier, and actually a perfect fit next to Jrue.
You all seem to dismiss how much Brad Stevens and his coaching and system impacts what we think we're seeing with the Celtics players. Jae Crowder looked like a great player while he was in Boston, but he didn't really look that before, and hasn't looked like that since. Be forewarned on Celtics players. What you think you see could be a byproduct of Brad.
You are not taking into account the picks mate. The Memphis one could be very valuable down the line. The Lakers don’t have any picks worth our consideration.
This is how phony some of you are.
AD's dad said he doesn't want any part of Boston. Very publicly and clearly on the record. Yet we say that shouldn't impact Boston, AD didn't say it himself, and Ainge will still give up that farm even if AD's people continue to loudly say he won't resign in Boston.
Lonzo's dad said he would prefer to be rerouted to another team where there isn't an established PG. And we flip out thinking that should have some impact on whether or not Dell/Loomis consider a trade with the Lakers! A trade where Ingram, who hasn't said anything, would be the primary player piece coming back - not even Lonzo!
If Memphis doesn't trade Conley and/or Gasol and wins more games than Orlando/Washington/Pelicans/Detroit down the stretch (and all these teams are trying to tank), good chance the Memphis pick conveys this year. It's top 8 protected. It could also convey next year, when it's top 6 protected. Best case scenario is you wouldn't get that pick until 2021, when it's unprotected, but a lot can happen in that time, and Memphis will be trying to win games if that's the case in 2021. It'll be similar to Kings scenario this year where everyone assumed that pick would be great, and it's then projected to be the last pick in lottery.
I’ll admit that the Lonzo comments don’t really amass to much as he probably will be the starting PG if we go that route, but I am absolutely not sold on him whatsoever. I’d rather some picks, Tatum and Brown. You can toot the “super fan” horn all you want, but you won’t sway many minds that way.This is how phony some of you are.
AD's dad said he doesn't want any part of Boston. Very publicly and clearly on the record. Yet we say that shouldn't impact Boston, AD didn't say it himself, and Ainge will still give up that farm even if AD's people continue to loudly say he won't resign in Boston.
Lonzo's dad said he would prefer to be rerouted to another team where there isn't an established PG. And we flip out thinking that should have some impact on whether or not Dell/Loomis consider a trade with the Lakers! A trade where Ingram, who hasn't said anything, would be the primary player piece coming back - not even Lonzo!
I think you are factoring in that Frank and Kendrich play for the Pelicans. If you watch all of them play, it is clear that Ball and Ingram are superior, at this point. Now, that could change as Frank and Kendrich get more playing time and look more comfortable.
So, it is does not raise a flag to you that the "text" went from AD's dad to Ramona Shelbourne (LA reporter)? Why not Woj or Shams? Could it be that she is shilling for Lebron/Klutch. Ainge is no newbie. He can see through that crap. It is all for the media.AD's dad said he doesn't want any part of Boston. Very publicly and clearly on the record. Yet we say that shouldn't impact Boston, AD didn't say it himself, and Ainge will still give up that farm even if AD's people continue to loudly say he won't resign in Boston.
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