Jrue return!!!!!

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

Girl in colorful socks is Kari sweets

Thank you.

I need some alone time now.

[Eman5805]

More hints of the narrative that we shouldn't have traded Noel for Holiday, as if that was the actual way it happened.

[Mythrol]

I'm in a dark dark place right now. Will we ever get good news?

I honestly think this spells the end for Dell no matter what he was told by Benson and no matter how out of control injuries are. Striking out horribly on Gordon and then losing 2 first round picks for a player who has played in 25% of possible games in 2 years is too much to overcome.

I wish him well but it might be time for a fresh start over the entire staff. Dell, Monty. We need a new beginning for the new franchise. Burn it to the ground.

[IamQuailman]

I will replace it. No Marvin though, but open to other options.

???

[Bongzilla]

LOL what have any of the players done since they have been here? Gordon? Tyreke? Asik? Name it? NO SUCCESS AT ALL.

But the one thing that those players have had (other than Gordon, except this year) is more time to play with eachother. You cant just say we have a losing record with him, with out considering who else was out while he was playing. How many times was AD, Gordon, or Anderson out when he was playing? But I guess that doesnt matter because its all on Jrue right? Its not a team game..... And we are basically .500 when Jrue is in the lineup

And so it is a "fact" that he is not elite because he hasnt won or been voted as a Def player of the year? The last guard to win a DPY award was 19 years ago LOL. Frontcourt players are almost a lock every year to be the DPY. You accuse my statements as opinion, but then your entire post is basically your opinion hahaha.

Also, I would like to see the stats of Jrue's "slow pace". Not team stats, Jrue. Everyone should want players to hustle on every play. I am assuming that you would be okay with Tyreke running the point if Jrue wasnt here. Lotta hustle/high energy out of him.....

Finally, go ahead and read the first sentence from my last post again..... ill wait.... I said to post it first so i can just by-pass your post because it is an obvious troll and extremely biased. You clearly dont like Jrue, i get it. But the only "fact" that you present when you judge him is our W-L. Which I have pointed out has many flaws because you are not taking into account many variables.

This is post is simply incorrect. Ill just rebut in the same order as you posted I suppose.

To start with, for success:

Asik = I'm of the mindset that Asik is doing what he was brought in to do. I am not saying he has been great. But who expected him to be? Yes he can be a below the rim, stone handed buffoon, getting his shot blocked by Muggsy Bouges. He is what he is, and if he can clean up the dropped passes and getting his shot stuffed on the glass, I would have zero problems with him. What exactly has he done to under perform? He is besting his career averages in almost every single category. Has AD played better next to him? Success!

EG = who is the #1 3pt % over the last half of the season??? Does anyone remember EG playing next to Jrue earlier in the year? Shooting in the low 30s? Is there a correlation? a causation? Any relationship at all? Impossible to prove one way or the other so why try? The fact is simple, the why is irrelevant. He is playing better next to Reke. Success!

Tyreke has a better winning percentage as the starting PG than Jrue. This is not an opinion. This year only, we were 18-19 with Jrue .486 win%. Since then, we are 23 and 19.. .547 win%. .486 would place us 11th in the West. While .547 would have us barely in the 8th seed. You can use any stat or variable you like, but Ill just use the only one that actually matters. Simple math shows that we have won at a higher percentage without him. You don't get in to the playoffs based on variables. Success!

You mentioned Jrue not playing with AD as an excuse for his record. Well, AD has missed 14 games this year. Guess how many were while Jrue was playing......wait for it.........1 game. (1) uno. Jrue played OVER 97% of his games with AD....whoops. So, over the last 42 games we have a better winning percentage, but AD has literally missed 31% (13/42) of those games, yet we still have a better winning percentage? So to recap:

Our best player, the jewel of the basketball world right now, has missed all of his games while Reke has been the PG, yet we STILL have a better winning percentage. Jrue started and played 97% of his games with our best player, and led us to a worse record than the guy who started only 69% with our best player. Allow this to marinate for a second.

It is obviously a lot more complex than this simple illustration, HOWEVER, anyone would be a fool to deny the validity.

Some people love to play the what if game, which IMO is a worthless endeavor. What if your girlfriend had a penis? Then she would be a man right? Whoop ti do. What ifs don't matter. Facts matter. Being available to play matters. Winning games matters. NOTHING ELSE DOES.

For the record, I have never been really against the Jrue trade, until he got re-injured this year. I now believe he is Brandon Roy 2.0 (I know it is a different condition) and want to trade him for value while we still can. There are many, like most on this forum for example, who do not believe Jrue is injury prone. So I don't believe his trade value is destroyed yet. Yes it is obviously diminished, and we would be buying high and and selling low. But sometimes you simply have to stop throwing good money after bad. IF, he comes back next year and this happens again, then his trade value will be DESTROYED. Trade him now while you can still get a QUALITY back up PG (great defender) and a QUALITY back up SG. Reke and EG seem to work well to me, why not let them gel? Is it because MM from BSS says so? (MM -not a shot at you, I just feel the crowd tends to follow you versus making their own opinions - I appreciate your time and effort, while I sometimes disagree with it.)

Back on track -- Jrue's elite Defense.

Um, yes, you said it correctly. Because Jrue has not received any actual accolades he is not an elite defender. You conveniently only focused on the DPOY when I clearly mentioned all accolades. (Rank - Amateur move) Perhaps I just have higher standards than you? Who knows. In the NFL there are Pro-bowlers and All-pros. In the NBA there are all-stars and all-NBA. These are NOT the same. If Jrue was INDEED an elite defender, then he would have at least won a 3rd team all defense by now. He would be mentioned throughout the NATIONAL media as such - an elite defender. Jrue is without question our best - VERY BEST perimeter defender (maybe douglas is close?) but that does not make him elite. Elite compared to you or I? of course, compared to his peers....not so much. His defense is so elite, that the team wins at a higher rate when he is not there.

Again, I used to like Jrue a lot. I thought he was up and coming. But he is still just a slightly above average point guard in this league. All of his "perceived" strengths has not led to victories..... so what are they actually worth?

Slow pace:

I don't know. Try watching some games? Jrue does not push the ball like Reke does. He certainly has the ability to run the court, but he is always playing "in control." Strange to have a known turnover problem (2.25 career Assit/TO %) (would currently rank him 38th place in the league), yet be considered "in control." Hustle? I said I expect and demand all players to hustle, your comment just does not make sense.


Come on man, if the competition is not equal than I just look like a bully. Get it together over there.

[Mythrol]

What's the team record of teams we played while Jrue was playing vs. The team records when Jrue was out.

I think that will answer a lot of the discrepancy in Win %.

[ILLHornetsFan]

During the Portland Phoenix game last week the Portland announcers who I think are one of the better tandems in the league, made a good point that all of the Western Conference Playoff teams have a dynamic pg. We have a good pg, just not dynamic. I still think we would have won more games if he was healthy!!

[ILLHornetsFan]

If you count the games Gordon, Jrue, and Evans have all 3 played in together the last 2 years I bet it is under 60 to 70 out of what 158 games played. Jrue having the injuries has hurt, but i thought our record would be worse if you had told me we would have the injuries that we have had.

[PhilJFry]

During the Portland Phoenix game last week the Portland announcers who I think are one of the better tandems in the league, made a good point that all of the Western Conference Playoff teams have a dynamic pg. We have a good pg, just not dynamic. I still think we would have won more games if he was healthy!!

I mean Houston basically doesn't have a point guard, but they have Harden so who cares I guess. Memphis has Mike Conley; idk if I would call him dynamic. He's very good but I wouldn't put him that far ahead of Holiday. Even Rondo and Tony Parker have been pretty mediocre this year.

[GuardianAngel25]

This is post is simply incorrect. Ill just rebut in the same order as you posted I suppose.

To start with, for success:

Asik = I'm of the mindset that Asik is doing what he was brought in to do. I am not saying he has been great. But who expected him to be? Yes he can be a below the rim, stone handed buffoon, getting his shot blocked by Muggsy Bouges. He is what he is, and if he can clean up the dropped passes and getting his shot stuffed on the glass, I would have zero problems with him. What exactly has he done to under perform? He is besting his career averages in almost every single category. Has AD played better next to him? Success!

EG = who is the #1 3pt % over the last half of the season??? Does anyone remember EG playing next to Jrue earlier in the year? Shooting in the low 30s? Is there a correlation? a causation? Any relationship at all? Impossible to prove one way or the other so why try? The fact is simple, the why is irrelevant. He is playing better next to Reke. Success!

Tyreke has a better winning percentage as the starting PG than Jrue. This is not an opinion. This year only, we were 18-19 with Jrue .486 win%. Since then, we are 23 and 19.. .547 win%. .486 would place us 11th in the West. While .547 would have us barely in the 8th seed. You can use any stat or variable you like, but Ill just use the only one that actually matters. Simple math shows that we have won at a higher percentage without him. You don't get in to the playoffs based on variables. Success!

You mentioned Jrue not playing with AD as an excuse for his record. Well, AD has missed 14 games this year. Guess how many were while Jrue was playing......wait for it.........1 game. (1) uno. Jrue played OVER 97% of his games with AD....whoops. So, over the last 42 games we have a better winning percentage, but AD has literally missed 31% (13/42) of those games, yet we still have a better winning percentage? So to recap:

Our best player, the jewel of the basketball world right now, has missed all of his games while Reke has been the PG, yet we STILL have a better winning percentage. Jrue started and played 97% of his games with our best player, and led us to a worse record than the guy who started only 69% with our best player. Allow this to marinate for a second.

It is obviously a lot more complex than this simple illustration, HOWEVER, anyone would be a fool to deny the validity.

Some people love to play the what if game, which IMO is a worthless endeavor. What if your girlfriend had a penis? Then she would be a man right? Whoop ti do. What ifs don't matter. Facts matter. Being available to play matters. Winning games matters. NOTHING ELSE DOES.

For the record, I have never been really against the Jrue trade, until he got re-injured this year. I now believe he is Brandon Roy 2.0 (I know it is a different condition) and want to trade him for value while we still can. There are many, like most on this forum for example, who do not believe Jrue is injury prone. So I don't believe his trade value is destroyed yet. Yes it is obviously diminished, and we would be buying high and and selling low. But sometimes you simply have to stop throwing good money after bad. IF, he comes back next year and this happens again, then his trade value will be DESTROYED. Trade him now while you can still get a QUALITY back up PG (great defender) and a QUALITY back up SG. Reke and EG seem to work well to me, why not let them gel? Is it because MM from BSS says so? (MM -not a shot at you, I just feel the crowd tends to follow you versus making their own opinions - I appreciate your time and effort, while I sometimes disagree with it.)

Back on track -- Jrue's elite Defense.

Um, yes, you said it correctly. Because Jrue has not received any actual accolades he is not an elite defender. You conveniently only focused on the DPOY when I clearly mentioned all accolades. (Rank - Amateur move) Perhaps I just have higher standards than you? Who knows. In the NFL there are Pro-bowlers and All-pros. In the NBA there are all-stars and all-NBA. These are NOT the same. If Jrue was INDEED an elite defender, then he would have at least won a 3rd team all defense by now. He would be mentioned throughout the NATIONAL media as such - an elite defender. Jrue is without question our best - VERY BEST perimeter defender (maybe douglas is close?) but that does not make him elite. Elite compared to you or I? of course, compared to his peers....not so much. His defense is so elite, that the team wins at a higher rate when he is not there.

Again, I used to like Jrue a lot. I thought he was up and coming. But he is still just a slightly above average point guard in this league. All of his "perceived" strengths has not led to victories..... so what are they actually worth?

Slow pace:

I don't know. Try watching some games? Jrue does not push the ball like Reke does. He certainly has the ability to run the court, but he is always playing "in control." Strange to have a known turnover problem (2.25 career Assit/TO %) (would currently rank him 38th place in the league), yet be considered "in control." Hustle? I said I expect and demand all players to hustle, your comment just does not make sense.


Come on man, if the competition is not equal than I just look like a bully. Get it together over there.

You are ridiculous and I will never get back the time I spent reading this garbage. Try taking away some of the bias you have towards a player because obviously you hate Jrue and most likely team Noel.

[Mythrol]

I don't think people are making a big enough deal about Loomis having the last call on if Jrue plays or not.

Dell can't even make that call. Honestly it feels like he is almost just a figure head at this point. I remember when the news first broke of the saints purchase and how they were structuring the organization Loomis said he was going to focus more on football and let Dell handle basketball. This news seems like a clear shift of that.

[GuardianAngel25]

I don't think people are making a big enough deal about Loomis having the last call on if Jrue plays or not.

Dell can't even make that call. Honestly it feels like he is almost just a figure head at this point. I remember when the news first broke of the saints purchase and how they were structuring the organization Loomis said he was going to focus more on football and let Dell handle basketball. This news seems like a clear shift of that.

I don't see how this is a big deal at all. Loomis is very experienced when dealing with injured players and makes the calls along with Coach Payton for the Saints. Loomis is the boss and the information he is getting to make he call is coming from Dell, Monty, and the medical staff along with how Jrue feels. I wouldn't expect it any other way when dealing with such an important piece of the franchise along with such a crucial part of the season.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I don't think people are making a big enough deal about Loomis having the last call on if Jrue plays or not.

Dell can't even make that call. Honestly it feels like he is almost just a figure head at this point. I remember when the news first broke of the saints purchase and how they were structuring the organization Loomis said he was going to focus more on football and let Dell handle basketball. This news seems like a clear shift of that.

I have been trying to tell people for a while that Dell doesn't have real power and its a shame. People scream for Dell to fire Monty, and I scream back that he can't even if he wants to.

Our structure is messed up. Owner didn't hire the GM. GM didn't hire the coach. It's unlike any other team in the league. It needs to get settled eventually one way or the other.

[GuardianAngel25]

I have been trying to tell people for a while that Dell doesn't have real power and its a shame. People scream for Dell to fire Monty, and I scream back that he can't even if he wants to.

Our structure is messed up. Owner didn't hire the GM. GM didn't hire the coach. It's unlike any other team in the league. It needs to get settled eventually one way or the other.

I agree that it kinda sucks they didn't hire them and were handed the staff instead. But plenty of organizations are set where the GM doesn't have full power. Ours is much different but I don't think Loomis having the final say so on Jrue is a big deal at all.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I agree that it kinda sucks they didn't hire them and were handed the staff instead. But plenty of organizations are set where the GM doesn't have full power. Ours is much different but I don't think Loomis having the final say so on Jrue is a big deal at all.

As fans, it behooves us to look at everything in the best possible light. But the truth is that the great organizations are not set up like this. It might not be a "big deal", but its not ideal either. You would never plan to set up your structure this way, for instance.

It needs to get fixed.

[pelicanblaze]

let jrue stay were he at if he comes back and hurt himself again in the last six games
then the talk will turn too the two first round pick we gave up for another EG so let him
come back next year and then see how he doing this team only has six game to play anyway

[MichaelMcNamara]

let jrue stay were he at if he comes back and hurt himself again in the last six games
then the talk will turn too the two first round pick we gave up for another EG so let him
come back next year and then see how he doing this team only has six game to play anyway

And what if he comes back and helps us get into the playoffs? The 'What if ' game can go both ways.

The thing that is weird to me is that nobody seems to have a problem with Paul George or Derrick Rose coming back with just a few games to go.

If a guy can play and he is no more likely to get re-injured than anybody else, then he should play. Obviously they aren't letting him on the court until he gets cleared by multiple people and feels no pain. It's not like they are trying to put him out there early. If he is cleared, play him. 1 game left, 3 games left, Game 2 of the playoffs, whatever.

[GuardianAngel25]

As fans, it behooves us to look at everything in the best possible light. But the truth is that the great organizations are not set up like this. It might not be a "big deal", but its not ideal either. You would never plan to set up your structure this way, for instance.

It needs to get fixed.

Yea I know it sucks but I don't think Loomis making the final decision on Jrue is a big deal at all. Unfortunately the only thing that can fix this problem is for us to start winning which isn't so unfortunate. The only way Loomis will start to really trust them and for us to be like other teams is to turn into real contenders next season with Dells moves showing big pay offs and Montys coaching progressing with the team. I just hope no matter what happens with the playoffs they get a fair chance for next season. If they can't prove it by then I have no problem getting his guys in place. If we can be a top 6 seed next season I think they earn it and gain a lot of trust by Loomis and company. I would like to believe they aren't just sitting hoping for failure to make a move a get their guys in place. I think if he didn't have confidence in them though they woudlnt have made it to this season and his guys would already be in place.

[Mythrol]

I don't see how this is a big deal at all. Loomis is very experienced when dealing with injured players and makes the calls along with Coach Payton for the Saints. Loomis is the boss and the information he is getting to make he call is coming from Dell, Monty, and the medical staff along with how Jrue feels. I wouldn't expect it any other way when dealing with such an important piece of the franchise along with such a crucial part of the season.

It's a big deal for a couple of reasons. First Loomis is in Dell's position for the Saints so it makes perfect sense for him to make that call. For basketball he is more in the position of an "owner". That would be like Steve Balmer saying whether Blake should play or not.

Also, it is a clear shift from the past where he should he would basically, "let the basketball guys handle basketball".

You have a Head Coach and you have a GM who is suppose to run the team. When interviewed by the news the HC basically saying who makes the call and it's not the GM that's kind of a big deal. Why wouldn't Loomis leave that decision to Dell?

I understand possibly having to get approval to spend a ton of money on a FA or some bigger trades but not allowing a GM to make the call on shutting down an injured player?

To me that says a lot about how marginalized Dell is in our current setup.

[GuardianAngel25]

It's a big deal for a couple of reasons. First Loomis is in Dell's position for the Saints so it makes perfect sense for him to make that call. For basketball he is more in the position of an "owner". That would be like Steve Balmer saying whether Blake should play or not.

Also, it is a clear shift from the past where he should he would basically, "let the basketball guys handle basketball".

You have a Head Coach and you have a GM who is suppose to run the team. When interviewed by the news the HC basically saying who makes the call and it's not the GM that's kind of a big deal. Why wouldn't Loomis leave that decision to Dell?

I understand possibly having to get approval to spend a ton of money on a FA or some bigger trades but not allowing a GM to make the call on shutting down an injured player?

To me that says a lot about how marginalized Dell is in our current setup.

I don't see how Loomis making the final decision on an inury is any showing of a shift in power. He is part of basketball operations for a reason and it isn't in a owner role. I don't think he had anything to do with trading for Jrue and Asik or singing Evans as a FA. Along with the many other moves we have made this season I believe it is all Dell making the decision and Loomis signing off on it as most all teams do. GMs have a lot of power but not as much as the guy above. Loomis has shown nothing to me than giving Dell the power to do what he wants and him helping in deciding on something he is very experienced with and making the final call means nothing to me.

What he does with the Saints is no comparison because he is Bensons right hand man and decides on who his president and other positions in the organization for everyone to do their job. Our situation has been different from the start. They would have never got an extension if he didn't believe so.

[Mythrol]

I don't see how Loomis making the final decision on an inury is any showing of a shift in power. He is part of basketball operations for a reason and it isn't in a owner role. I don't think he had anhtning to do with trading for Jrue and Asik or singing Evans as a FA. Along with the many other moves we have made this season I believe it is all Dell making the decision and Loomis signing off on it as most all teams do. GMs have a lot of power but not as much as the guy above. Loomis has shown nothing to me than giving Dell the power to do what he wants and him helping in deciding on something he is very experienced with and making the final call means nothing to me.

I think that's the point. It shows a clear shift if he allowed Dell to make the call on Jrue, Evans, Asik trades but now suddenly won't allow Dell to make a call on an injured player.

[Primetime]

Dell shouldn't be allowed to make the decision because he doesn't have job security. Ultimately, isn't it doubltful Loomis or Dell will be making the call on this? This would seemingly be the medical staff + Jrue's call? Any type of vague "well, there's a chance he makes it worse" should be met with a quick "he is out til next year."

[4Real]

Hey guy,

You have been drinking too much Kool-aid.

Honest question, What has Jrue done since he has been here? Name it? NO SUCCESS AT ALL.

The definition of ignorant is a lack of knowledge... try to keep up.

First of all, he is a highly over-rated defender on this board. He is a GOOD DEFENDER - but far from elite. How many defensive accolades has he received? Has he received a SINGLE VOTE in any defensive player of the year awards? People from every fan base will tell you that Avery Bradley and Patrick Beverly are ELITE on ball defenders, but no one outside of this forum would put him in that company. How many 1st team all defense? What about 2nd?? What about 3rd?? GET MY POINT - NOT ELITE. Fact. Unless you somehow believe that being the (at best) 4th+ best defender out of 30 is elite. If so,,,, please raise your standards, it will serve you well in life. A maximum of 86% is a B in any and every grading scale I have ever seen. A "B" is obviously not elite on any planet.

Hustles on every play? Here is some more help for you, don't call someone's statements ignorant, and then put forth your OPINIONS as fact. One of the things I dislike most about Jrue's game is the slow, monotonous pace he plays at. Slow pace != hustle, IMO. Additionally, I EXPECT AND DEMAND all players to hustle on every play. You don't get kudos for doing what you are paid to do. Has anyone ever heard Jrue described as a high energy, hustler? Me either.

To say things like we wouldn't sniff the playoffs, is once again far from ignorant, but actually projected off of facts. FACT - we have a better record without Jrue than with him. I will concede that I should have put IMO before that sentence.

Lastly, you lack the ability to comprehend how someone can be the 2nd most talented player on the team, yet still not be a good fit? People in this position should not call others ignorant. You claim that he can mesh with any line-up, BUT FACTS DISAGREE WITH YOU.

When Jrue Holiday touches the court, we lose more games than when he is hurt. This is not my opinion. This is an indisputable fact. If we want to "IMAGINE" what may happen, well please do.

In closing, anytime I see someone WASTE their time, to reply on a forum that you did not want to read their posts. It reeks of desperation. Think about it. You are actually admitting that you did not want to read my post, but sadly, have nothing better to do than to comment on it.


YIKES!!

Is this a term paper?

[4Real]

And what if he comes back and helps us get into the playoffs? The 'What if ' game can go both ways.

The thing that is weird to me is that nobody seems to have a problem with Paul George or Derrick Rose coming back with just a few games to go.

If a guy can play and he is no more likely to get re-injured than anybody else, then he should play. Obviously they aren't letting him on the court until he gets cleared by multiple people and feels no pain. It's not like they are trying to put him out there early. If he is cleared, play him. 1 game left, 3 games left, Game 2 of the playoffs, whatever.

I don't recall Paul George or Derrick Rose geting 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th....opinions on their injury. The injury timeline for George and Rose was CONCRETE! What does it tell you when Monty don't even know when Jrue is coming back? Sound concrete to you? I saw him walking around the court before the game with a very noticeable limp from the 300 level. Just sayin.

[Mythrol]

I don't recall Paul George or Derrick Rose geting 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th....opinions on their injury. The injury timeline for George and Rose was CONCRETE! What does it tell you when Monty don't even know when Jrue is coming back? Sound concrete to you? I saw him walking around the court before the game with a very noticeable limp from the 300 level. Just sayin.

I don't think you are remembering either of their injuries correctly. George was originally suppose to miss the entire year. Rose the very day the Bulls gave a time table was interviewed and said he wasn't sure when he'd return and he didn't want to put a time table on it.