Yes, NolaNight. That stat is a bit misleading because we beat the Spurs consecutively in Game 1 & 2 in the Western Conf. Semis in '08.Originally Posted by iNolaNightmare
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Yes, NolaNight. That stat is a bit misleading because we beat the Spurs consecutively in Game 1 & 2 in the Western Conf. Semis in '08.
HANGIN' IN THE PELICANS ROOST!!
For accuracy purposes, remember Rick Carlisle won a championship with Dallas in 2011.
I don't admonish you for having that opinion at all. You may be right. But for perspective on that view I'll reference Mac's stance. He wasn't the biggest Monty fan either but was never really on the fire Monty train because honestly, who out there is a sure fire upgrade that also doesn't have current coaching employment? And before anyone says George Karl, you have to acknowledge his old age and health issues and the risk involved there. Other than that and perhaps prying some happy college coaches, you'd either have to commit to a retread that has failed somewhere before or yet another unknown quantity with no coaching experience.
A Phil type would be awesome, but coaches like that don't just grow on trees.
Oh! Is that all? Simply asking for one of the 5 best coaches ever? Well then, if that's all it is going to take to make you happy let's blow it up and start searching.
Luke Babbitt ! DUH
We don't need an established top 5 coach, but you do need to move on from Monty.
If you Jimmer it, they will come.
I will note you didn't answer any of the core questions in my post and clearly didn't read everything I wrote. Other then that, you go to prove my point, you aren't making any sort of verifiable case for Monty's coaching abilities. Instead you are attempting to assert it as a fact through one-sided arguments trying to drag down his competition(which says something in and of itself that your argument tries to drag down others skills instead of arguing up Monty's skills). Then trying to claim that he has shown marked improvement(without ever listing and qualifying just what that improvement is) or providing how that improvement elevates him to the level of a longterm answer at coach or why this improvement that you failed to list indicates he will be elite in the future. The things I listed in the common critiques are still very real problems and the improvements I have seen aren't nullifying those things.
As for AD, player morale is important. But it isn't the be all end all. If we subscribed to your way of running an organization through the desires of the star player, then GS would still be employing Mark Jackson, LAL would have fired Phil Jackson during the numerous kobe/phil eruptions and Spoelstra would have been dumped after the Mavs loss. Players are a factor, but they tend to make decisions based more on emotion and not logic. Chris Paul loved Monty Williams, that wasn't enough to keep him here now was it? The fact is that for true superstar competitors they want to win.
Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 12-27-2014 at 12:09 PM.
I'm always in tune with your opinions bro, but this one. A coaching change at this juncture isn't going to yield some magic result.
He, whatever anyone says, brought AD along with care and class and they remain tight. Coach K can't be choosing bums for his assistants huh? I feel the sentiment, but we have improved. As long as that is the case, I say stay with him
I wouldn't fire him mid season unless his name was PJ Carlisimo. Fire him at the end of the year, and go hunting for the next Phil.
Then why do we have threads like this? If no one wants Monty as a coach then why are we seeing so many posts trying to preserve his honor and make the case to retain his tenure?
If no one on this board actually wants him to be the coach any longer then they are completely irrational in defending keeping him beyond the season. Making a case for a sunk cost that they know in their heart needs to be replaced for the long term good. I understand the argument of "is it players or coach?" "GM or coach?" But there are A LOT of AD likes him so lets keep him posts and Monty just needs more time/better players/more trust/is better then X, Y, Z,/I'd rather Monty over anyone else available. To me that is hard not to inference as meaning they want to retain Monty long term.
Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 12-27-2014 at 12:10 PM.
Monty will not be fired midseason, you guys just need to relax and enjoy THIS season because this is the team we have right now.
Mark Jackson is still out there...I think he'd put some much needed fire in this team
Marc Jackson will still be available in June.
You all need to stop arguing ghosts. They don't exist. I mean that is the only conclusion I can come to considering that we have a couple of posters in here arguing against Monty being fired mid-season, because no one has posted that in here.
uhm okay? pretty sure I didn't say hire him now just making a statement lol
Then we need to reconvene this discussion after the season when the full body of work can be judged. Heads will be much clearer by then.
No we don't. Your argument is like saying a parent can't have a clear head and shouldn't acknowledge the problems or discuss the possible solutions of a child until he finishes the semester, even if he currently has C's, D's and F's in some of his classes.
When speaking about a man's livelihood i try to show a little respect.
What? haha. Criticism and Respect are not mutually exclusive.
No one is arguing because it's a tiring argument. After every game people make all kinds of insane comments about how Monty can't coach and then people write books PROVING how his play calling directly lead to us scoring the points needed to win the game, or how him going with a big line-up late was the reason we were able to shut down the other team and win.
But you and numerous others just ignore all of this and keep spewing how Monty is a bad coach and has shown no improvement and every loss is directly on him. You don't want real answers. You just want everyone to suck each other off and hate on Monty. You and others have a clear agenda to **** on Monty ever chance you get without realistically looking at the NUMEROUS things he does well.
I'm not even the biggest Monty fan but no one can take a balanced view of him, or really any player here, and so it leaves it to me and a few others to try and bring reason to these asinine topics. But no, Don't assume just because no one has answered your questions that there are no answers. We simply don't feel the need to rehash this again for the 1000th time.
Also, might as well get it out there now and say "Cool Story Bro" too.
Last edited by Mythrol; 12-27-2014 at 01:21 PM.
OK. Here are my direct answers to your post:
Yes, he can be a championship caliber coach if he has the same caliber of players as most other championship coaches were when they won their chanmpionships.
No, I don't see anyone available that would be an overall upgrade over Monty. Unavailable or unable to handle the grind: Karl, Sloan, Phil, Pops, CArlisle, Thibs, Coach K, Izzo. Not an upgrade: Van Gundies, Karl, Spoelstra, Marc JAckson, any players who haven't coached, any other college coach, any foreign coach. This is the only point which really matters, and therefore the only one I addressed.
No, he probably can't outcoach Pops or Carlisle on his first try. Nor does he have the caliber of players that a fully healthy GSW, HOU, OKC, or LAC team will have, so he probably won't beat them either. Our players might be on par with POR, MEM, and Phoenix, and I think he can hold his own against their coaches if we draw one of those teams.
So, I don't think we can significantly upgrade over Monty, so if AD is happy with him then I would stay the course. I don't care if you or other fans are happy with him, as long as the players work hard for him and we are competitive. They do, we are, and so I say quit pining for a mythical coaching upgrade.
Quoting my ghost comment is pretty apt considering you are doing that here.
This is the common attack that keeps propping up. Asserting some sort of unqualified agenda and associating all posters that can be labeled supporting some sort of position as being irrational based on the acts of a minority few. I could take all the irrational and idiotic things Monty apologists say and try and conflate them to representing your viewpoint but I don't do that? Know why? Because its a sign of intellectual dishonestly.
Now, to move on from the personal attacks.....
To simplify lets look at coaching as a sliding scale of 0-10.
The truth is no NBA coach is making 0 decisions, ever. The talent is too high.
But what separates the great coaches from the good coaches and the good coaches from the average and the average from the bad is the matter of degrees in their decision making and the cumulative effect of those decisions. Every decision a coach makes, from lineups, to playcalling, to drills in practice, to defensive system, to points of emphasis, to matchups, to player morale, has opportunity costs and alternatives.
You are making the assertion that people like me are claiming that Monty are making a bunch of 0 ranked decisions when that isn't what I or anyone else that I have read has argued. Instead what is being argued is that Monty makes a bunch of decisions that would rank as a 5 or 6, when there are clearly 7, 8 or 9 decisions available to him. Or where Monty has consistently proven to make overall 6 decisions in area X, he is trending below his peers who generally make better quality decisions in area X or have other areas that make up for falling below Mont'y area.
The argument is ultimately that Monty is an overall 5 or 6 - with no real 9's or 10's - in a league that has a lot of 8's, 9's and maybe one almost 10(Pop). That to succeed with Monty ultimately requires a talent level that can overcome his coaching inefficiencies.
So no one is arguing Monty can't call good plays. Or that he hasn't done positive things. Or that he hasn't experienced growth. Or that he hasn't had spurts of 9 or 10 level decision making in some area.
The problem is that a number of posters, you included, want to try and mis-frame the arguments being made on here to skirt addressing actual arguments. The argument is ultimately a bunch of people arguing that Monty is a 4, 5, or 6(a few probably think he is less then that, but ultimately that he is around average or slightly above or below it) and that we can't win with him in the long run. Arguing mostly with a bunch of people that either A.) Claim he is better then that(a few much better then that, SEE NoEngineer.) B.) Even if he is a 4, 5 or 6 we can win with him or C.) that he may or may not be better then that but he deserves more time.
As for the so-called need to rehash for the 1000th time, perhaps you could point me to these well delivered, well written defenses of Monty that are supposedly so abundant? Because I have seen very little from the A, B or C posters that count as a legitimate, well-constructed defense of Monty.
Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 12-27-2014 at 01:59 PM.
Can you substantiate this with more then assertions and hunches?
That is the meat of what I am asking for. A compelling argument in defense of retaining Monty.
I go around these threads and around the web and hear a lot of specific examples of Monty's failures in coaching - many not warranted or are overstated - but some have value. And none have given a strong case that Monty is a championship caliber coach. So the onus is on you to prove your case. Your are making the thesis statement that he can outcoach most in the league and is a championship caliber coach. Now is the time you provide your body paragraphs and give us the supporting evidence.
Last edited by N.O.Bronco; 12-27-2014 at 01:51 PM.
Bronco what the hell.
First of all, recognize the context of his claim. His claim is basically that most championship coaches have high caliber rosters to go along with whatever coaching abilities they may have. Despite whatever pros and cons MW may have, he's good ENOUGH to get a great roster there, so he says. That's just his opinion...there may be nothing specific and deep behind it. You're strawmanning the premise of his claim by making him construct a 15 point thesis of Month's coaching pros when he clearly is of the stance that talent has more weight than coaching.
Secondly, you are the pot calling the kettle black with your "GIVE ME DETAILS NOT GENERALITIES!!" schtick. All your claim is that Monty has bad rotations (how?), loses close games (what coach doesn't? And in such cases who's to say that the coach is the sole blame?), doesn't adjust well (your opinion, and honestly can't be quantified either way), etc.
Thirdly, as other posters have already stated, none of the "Monty defenders" claim that he is the greatest coach ever. They're all basically of the stance of be reasonable, balanced, patient, and consider the big picture and likely consider MW to at least be an average coach who has decent knowledge of the game but flaws. You're constructing your own narrative to suit your point better. We're not claiming to be smarter than an NBA coach and micro-analyzing each coaching decision as blatantly cut and dry dumb or smart. You're the one with all these sharp hot takes that Monty isn't good enough for us, so it should be on YOU the prosecutor here to back yourself up.
By the way, you don't have to do that last part. It was more hypothetical than anything. I also don't care that much to argue. Like I told UNO, if you don't think MW is the right coach, that's cool. You might be right, maybe he's not. Some of us are in evaluate, wait and see, and be fair mode, while I guess your mind is made up.
Last edited by djpaul89; 12-27-2014 at 02:55 PM.
Cool story bro.
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