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Thread: Stan Van Gundy Out {merged}

  1. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by WildlifeAirGrp View Post
    Sadly, we are here again and this is my broken record...she is a proven winner at every level, including coaching NBA players. It might not mean much to this board, but we need to be relevant because I am willing to bet ticket renewals have tanked and new season tickets are non-existent and that matters.



    Although at this point, my guess she is just waiting for Pop to retire, but what do I know?
    Hammon has credentials similar to many men who will get jobs. We are discussing Spoon.

    Also, ticket sales shouldnt even be a .0000001 percent factor for this decision. Because if you blow this hire and lose Zion, you arent selling any tickets at the end of this decade because this team will be in another city. You dont make a hire this year for some ticket sales. And this is a common mistake people make when they debate - they think more points are better than less. Its the opposite. Only list your strongest points, never list one that weak just to have more because your opponent will tear that one down and by proxy make the others appear weaker. Quality, not quantity young man
    @mcnamara247

  2. #277
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    To play the other side (because I know the argument against this): What were Steve Nash's credentials?

    So, before anyone says that, Brooklyn had guys who already knew the game. If we had hardened, experienced guys who already knew the fundamentals, had been through wars and didnt need to still build a foundation for their game, I would be totally fine with a coach with little experience. Making Nash coach of the Nets was fun. Giving him the Memphis job two years ago, by contrast, would have been insane.

    So, please dont bring up the Nash argument fellow poster, because that roster and ours is not apples to apples with regard to what it needs from its HC
    Nash brings familiarity with men's basketball and the knowledge of what it takes to be successful in the NBA.

    I'll pass on hiring a PR gimmick in favor of hiring a coach. I'm not interested in being Beloved (apologies to Toni Morrison), I'm interested in winning basketball games.
    Disclaimer: I would never denigrate or defame Zion Williamson as a man or as a basketball player; he will go down as an NBA great and perhaps a Top 10+ player of all time. Any inference derived from any of my posts to the contrary is your mischaracterization of my words, or a sign of insecurity on your part (perhaps both).

    Respectfully,

    AISI

  3. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    Nash brings familiarity with men's basketball and the knowledge of what it takes to be successful in the NBA.

    I'll pass on hiring a PR gimmick in favor of hiring a coach. I'm not interested in being Beloved (apologies to Toni Morrison), I'm interested in winning basketball games.
    I think you are going too far by labeling her a PR gimmick and nothing more. A person doesnt have to be an F to be worse than and A or B. To me, there are simply people with better resumes for what this organization needs at this moment. Dont have to totally discredit one human being to choose another. That is done far too much on message boards and twitter when people talk basketball. No need for it

  4. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    I think you are going too far by labeling her a PR gimmick and nothing more. A person doesnt have to be an F to be worse than and A or B. To me, there are simply people with better resumes for what this organization needs at this moment. Dont have to totally discredit one human being to choose another. That is done far too much on message boards and twitter when people talk basketball. No need for it
    Oh, no Mac, I'm not discrediting her. In her field she was quite successful...maybe even Springfield successful. But let's not be so naive as to conflate women's basketball with men's basketball. They are two distinct games that require two different skill sets and coaching styles to be played successfully. Two years as a "Developmental Coach" doesn't bridge that chasm.

  5. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    Oh, no Mac, I'm not discrediting her. In her field she was quite successful...maybe even Springfield successful. But let's not be so naive as to conflate women's basketball with men's basketball. They are two distinct games that require two different skill sets and coaching styles to be played successfully. Two years as a "Developmental Coach" doesn't bridge that chasm.
    Then how come men can be great womens basketball coaches?

    I would let this one go, the arguments you are making are not solid. That one was easy to disable. A woman can coach mens sports, just as a man can coach womans. Unless you want to make some kind of argument that men are superior and can do both and woman can only do one, and I would advise against that

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    Then how come men can be great womens basketball coaches?

    I would let this one go, the arguments you are making are not solid. That one was easy to disable. A woman can coach mens sports, just as a man can coach womans. Unless you want to make some kind of argument that men are superior and can do both and woman can only do one, and I would advise against that
    I've coached both (albeit on a high school level) and I assure you it's considerably easier to coach the women's game where X's and O's are the blueprint for success because woman are a lot more open to instruction. Testosterone, on the other hand, has a hard code to crack
    Last edited by As I See It; 06-20-2021 at 08:25 PM.

  7. #282
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    Because if you blow this hire and lose Zion, you arent selling any tickets at the end of this decade because this team will be in another city.
    You just say these things, bruh...

  8. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    You just say these things, bruh...
    So, if we lose a 3rd generational guy, in a market that cares about football 100x more than basketball, you would bet on the Pels staying?

    C'mon, imagine you were a fan of another team and didnt have a bias towards the Pels and some dude offered a million dollars if you could guess the next team to relocate. Pels wouldnt be in your top 5?

  9. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    I've coached both (albeit on a high school level) and I assure you it's considerably easier to coach the women's game where X's and O's are the blueprint for success because woman are a lot more open to instruction. Testosterone, on the other hand, has a hard code to crack
    So, now the argument is that men are better than women at getting young black men to fall in line? You sure you want to go with that one???

    You are welcome towards your opinion. I just dont think your arguments are based in anything factual. Writing off an entire sex for a job is not something that I think is wise to do. I fully expect a few women to be successful mens basketball and football coaches in my lifetime

  10. #285
    There's no way in hell Griff would hire the first female head coach in history given what's at stake. It's not even fathomable

  11. #286
    Hall of Famer WildlifeAirGrp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    Hammon has credentials similar to many men who will get jobs. We are discussing Spoon.

    Also, ticket sales shouldnt even be a .0000001 percent factor for this decision. Because if you blow this hire and lose Zion, you arent selling any tickets at the end of this decade because this team will be in another city. You dont make a hire this year for some ticket sales. And this is a common mistake people make when they debate - they think more points are better than less. Its the opposite. Only list your strongest points, never list one that weak just to have more because your opponent will tear that one down and by proxy make the others appear weaker. Quality, not quantity young man
    I get it...but this franchise is teetering on the brink. It's a Catch-22, but with the Hawks and Suns making a splash, it only exacerbates our situation. At this point, only the people on this board seem to care about the Pels. I'm the guy they should be concerned about. I went to one game last year and left early. And I do appreciate your candor on my post and others.
    Thanks Pelicans Report - I get a laugh or three every day reading this thing. Hoping the magic returns to the SKC soon.
    Wildlife Aviation Group

  12. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by WildlifeAirGrp View Post
    I get it...but this franchise is teetering on the brink. It's a Catch-22, but with the Hawks and Suns making a splash, it only exacerbates our situation. At this point, only the people on this board seem to care about the Pels. I'm the guy they should be concerned about. I went to one game last year and left early. And I do appreciate your candor on my post and others.
    The tickets get sold if Zion is here and if the team wins. Griff has one more shot at this. He is gone if this hire doesnt work. I promise, he is not thinking about next years season tickets. Not even a tiny bit

  13. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    So, now the argument is that men are better than women at getting young black men to fall in line? You sure you want to go with that one???

    You are welcome towards your opinion. I just dont think your arguments are based in anything factual. Writing off an entire sex for a job is not something that I think is wise to do. I fully expect a few women to be successful mens basketball and football coaches in my lifetime
    Please, I've said nothing about "black men" or "falling in line". Please don't turn this into a racial commentary.

    I only pointed out that coaching women (black white, brown, pink with gray polka dots) requires a different skillset than coaching men (black, white, brown or blue). A women, inexperienced in the men's game, who has had a distinguished career in the woman's game is not prepared to coach a game beyond her familiarity nor the psyches she will likely encounter.

    Can she do it and be successful? Perhaps. But is "perhaps" the basis you want to rely on for your next coach?

  14. #289
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    So, if we lose a 3rd generational guy, in a market that cares about football 100x more than basketball, you would bet on the Pels staying?

    C'mon, imagine you were a fan of another team and didnt have a bias towards the Pels and some dude offered a million dollars if you could guess the next team to relocate. Pels wouldnt be in your top 5?
    I'd put them there right now. Doesn't mean I like the thought. It's my only connection to the sport. If there's no product I can go to arenas and watch, I'm not going to care much more than I do about baseball.

    It all depends on Gayle. She's 74. She could live to be 90. But she might not. If succession passes the team on to a person more concerned with cashing in than keeping the NBA in NOLA...yeah. Not a thought I wanna entertain.

  15. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    I'd put them there right now. Doesn't mean I like the thought. It's my only connection to the sport. If there's no product I can go to arenas and watch, I'm not going to care much more than I do about baseball.

    It all depends on Gayle. She's 74. She could live to be 90. But she might not. If succession passes the team on to a person more concerned with cashing in than keeping the NBA in NOLA...yeah. Not a thought I wanna entertain.
    I say things I believe to be true, not things I want to believe.

    I think fans are fooling themselves if they dont think its a real possibility. And this offseason might be the one we look back at as the thing that kept them here or it was their final chance to save it and they blew it. Not saying it to make waves. Saying it because I believe it is an objective truth

  16. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    Please, I've said nothing about "black men" or "falling in line". Please don't turn this into a racial commentary.

    I only pointed out that coaching women (black white, brown, pink with gray polka dots) requires a different skillset than coaching men (black, white, brown or blue). A women, inexperienced in the men's game, who has had a distinguished career in the woman's game is not prepared to coach a game beyond her familiarity nor the psyches she will likely encounter.

    Can she do it and be successful? Perhaps. But is "perhaps" the basis you want to rely on for your next coach?
    I think every candidate available is a "perhaps" -- if there was a definite, they would be hired.

    On a long enough timeline, almost every coach fails. And yes, mens basketball and womens are different, yet men have figured out how to be successful in both. I still fail to see your reasoning why women can only be successful in one

  17. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    Please, I've said nothing about "black men" or "falling in line". Please don't turn this into a racial commentary.

    I only pointed out that coaching women (black white, brown, pink with gray polka dots) requires a different skillset than coaching men (black, white, brown or blue). A women, inexperienced in the men's game, who has had a distinguished career in the woman's game is not prepared to coach a game beyond her familiarity nor the psyches she will likely encounter.

    Can she do it and be successful? Perhaps. But is "perhaps" the basis you want to rely on for your next coach?
    We know Spoon can handle the psyche of Zion and Kiara at the very least , and from the sounds of it BI and the other young players. If anything this argument strengthens her position IMO. I agree Becky Hammon has a clear advantage on any other team and possibly this one as well despite any connections Spoon has made. Since we have recently failed with a Players coach and an old hard school disciplinarian I do not trust our ability to chose a coach , male or not, that our young core can connect with. Once again , I am not saying we need to make a splash with a female head coach, but if I see an argument for another coach I want to see how they will relate to our young core and be able to get them to grow in a way that at least matches Hammon on the Spurs or Spoon here. Winning a championship in previous years as an assistant didn't work, being a supposedly culture oriented , hard working, defensive specialist hasn't. It is just seeming more and more it is about getting that core of players to listen and be engaged.

  18. #293
    Just answering the question -Developmental coach whatever the hell that means - since it is her performance in this job, not that she is liked, that people bring her name up

    that position focuses on the development of recently drafted players. so the improvements we saw in Hayes, Zion, Kira, NAW etc were her responsibility, what she worked on. If you think those players got significantly better and are an important part of the team then consider that she was assigned to work directly with them to teach them how to be an NBA professional and how to work on their game to make it more NBA ready. She would be responsible for film breakdown, skill set evaluation, set skill goals with players etc

    Most likely she would not interact with BI, Ball, Addams, Bledsoe etc because after a number of years in the NBA players seem to move towards specialists

  19. #294
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    I would love if people did all those things. Like I said, I have nothing against her. Wont claim to know if she would be a good coach or bad. Or if coaching really matters that much. I am only commenting on how I have been a fan of this team for decades, covered them, wrote about them, read hundreds of thousands of message board posts, etc and I have never seen people advocate for a coach based on only being liked and respected by the players. It is almost always scheme talk, past win-loss record, pointing to specific development of specific players, etc

    And now, all of a sudden it changes. Thats the part I find weird. But I would LOVE if someone researched and found me ideas about schemes she would use, coaching principles, etc. like they usually do for every other candidate
    I am not an advocate for hiring Spoon, but if I had to guess, it may just be fans hoping for anything that keeps Zion happy in hopes of not losing him. Not saying it is right or wrong. Just speculating on why the reasoning is different now for some.

  20. #295
    Spoon has had more NBA coaching experience than Steve Nash did. So why not? It’s kind of a figurehead position anyway. Get your assistants to handle the practices and even a lot of the in game stuff, and you take the credit and put on a good show, to make the team you’re coaching look like an attractive place for players to go.

    If nothing else Spoon will give us a lot of positive press for a while, and if it keeps your stars happy go for it. And who knows, she might even be a good head coach as an added bonus.

  21. #296

  22. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by AusPel View Post
    There's no way in hell Griff would hire the first female head coach in history given what's at stake. It's not even fathomable
    um, wat?

  23. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni View Post
    Spoon has had more NBA coaching experience than Steve Nash did. So why not? It?s kind of a figurehead position anyway. Get your assistants to handle the practices and even a lot of the in game stuff, and you take the credit and put on a good show, to make the team you?re coaching look like an attractive place for players to go.

    If nothing else Spoon will give us a lot of positive press for a while, and if it keeps your stars happy go for it. And who knows, she might even be a good head coach as an added bonus.
    Make or break year for Zion, and ultimately for the future of the franchise in New Orleans...... and you're cool with hiring a figurehead coach as a PR stunt to try and improve one of the youngest teams in the league?

    All to get you some positive press? ... oh and there's the 'added bonus' of her actually being a 'good head coach'. Since Steve Nash, a hall of fame NBA player, had less coaching experience and he did well coaching a team with 3 all-stars on it, it can't be THAT hard for Spoon, right?

  24. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    I say things I believe to be true, not things I want to believe.

    I think fans are fooling themselves if they dont think its a real possibility. And this offseason might be the one we look back at as the thing that kept them here or it was their final chance to save it and they blew it. Not saying it to make waves. Saying it because I believe it is an objective truth
    Well, there's a 0% chance that Gayle moves the team. So the team moving would be predicated on her selling...and I don't know why she would sell. Probably a moot point, as one of Hollinger's justifications for a move was the lease expiring...and I'd bet big money that the lease is extended before Zion could leave anyway.

    I get the view from the outside...no fan support, no corporate base, stars keep leaving. I'm sure I'd see it the same way if I lived in Seattle. But we heard all the same stuff about losing AD would mean the team would move, etc. What's the historical evidence for losing players leading to franchises moving? Not Seattle to OKC, Not Charlotte to NO, not Vancouver to Memphis...

  25. #300
    I wouldnt look at it as: Losing Zion will make them move.... as much as - due to fan support, overall community apathy, the market, etc, this was a franchise that would have been a major candidate to move but having a Zion makes a lot of those things go away, and no longer having him brings them right back into the spotlight.

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