Pelicans finalizing trade for Asik

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

I'm telling you, Rivers can get you around 25-30, just trust me :)

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I'll take your word for it lol. Question is do we just buy 1 and possibly get a higher pick that 25?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Can you be more specific? is there a starting point for reference? Just in general I would have taken my time and build the team via the draft.

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Going back to 2012 offseason. I'm curious to how you would have done this, and whether or not you think we'd be further along than we are now. And I assume, given hindsight, you can make all the correct picks and signings.

I'm just saying... of the teams that were in similar positions to us in 2012, I'm not sure if any of them are closer than we are to being a playoff team, have a better outlook going forward, and are closer to being a contending team.

And what about that rumor of the Pels trying to acquire a first rounder?? Would it be the missing thing to complete another deal and get the Asik deal done?

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

I'm guessing 3.2mil is the going rate for 1st rounders?? I saw the tweet but just didn't get the 3.2 number.

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That's the maximum amount of money a team can use in trades.

How the Pelicans are aiming high with Omer Asik
http://www.thescore.com/news/527601

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Originally Posted by RekeHavoc

That's the maximum amount of money a team can use in trades.

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I get that. I guess I'm wondering if it will take the whole 3.2 to get a 1st rounder.

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

I get that. I guess I'm wondering if it will take the whole 3.2 to get a 1st rounder.

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Not sure what the going rate is, but I think the main point was that we have the full 3.2 to use. I could see us buying a pick.

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Originally Posted by RekeHavoc

Not sure what the going rate is, but I think the main point was that we have the full 3.2 to use. I could see us buying a pick.

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Since there are supposedly quite a few teams looking to get rid of theirs I can see that as well.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Going back to 2012 offseason. I'm curious to how you would have done this, and whether or not you think we'd be further along than we are now. And I assume, given hindsight, you can make all the correct picks and signings.

I'm just saying... of the teams that were in similar positions to us in 2012, I'm not sure if any of them are closer than we are to being a playoff team, have a better outlook going forward, and are closer to being a contending team.

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Yea I'm on the same page as you.

Also @da ThRONe, the reason you build from the draft is to try and obtain your cornerstone player. We got that with our very first draft in Anthony Davis. After that most of those picks are going to end up being pretty useless if you truly did get a great player. The reason teams like Cleveland and Milwakee have been stuck building through the draft is because they keep getting bad players and are stuck drafting high and getting low return. Once you have your cornerstone you move forward considering yourself a contender and building around that.

Only team where this isn't the case is OKC where they had a series of phenomenal picks. Most teams don't get so lucky.

If you get a 1st round pick, that comes with a cap hold for 100% of its slotted amount. This is why I was keen on getting a 2nd round pick - no cap hold.

Couldn't just do Rivers for a 1st and then slid Asik -would still be short, unless you also got rid of Ajinca's guaranteed deal. But you can do Austin for a high 2nd this year and a future 2nd and be fine. And with Ford tweeting that a lot of guys taken between 20 and 30 will be draft and stash guys, you might be able to get the same player at 33 as 23

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Going back to 2012 offseason. I'm curious to how you would have done this, and whether or not you think we'd be further along than we are now. And I assume, given hindsight, you can make all the correct picks and signings.

I'm just saying... of the teams that were in similar positions to us in 2012, I'm not sure if any of them are closer than we are to being a playoff team, have a better outlook going forward, and are closer to being a contending team.

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I think anybody that is familiar with my post the last 3 years or so will tell you I'm equally as opinionate before. I have laid out at each stage what it is I would have done differently starting with the Eric Gordon situation. If you truly interested you can go back and check if you really think I'm using the power of hindsight. I even made a thread assuming the role of GM last offseason. Dig it up if you like.

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Originally Posted by Schmide234

Yea I'm on the same page as you.

Also @da ThRONe, the reason you build from the draft is to try and obtain your cornerstone player. We got that with our very first draft in Anthony Davis. After that most of those picks are going to end up being pretty useless if you truly did get a great player. The reason teams like Cleveland and Milwakee have been stuck building through the draft is because they keep getting bad players and are stuck drafting high and getting low return. Once you have your cornerstone you move forward considering yourself a contender and building around that.

Only team where this isn't the case is OKC where they had a series of phenomenal picks. Most teams don't get so lucky.

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Same as I've told MVP if you are really interested into my take on things they are well documented here.

edit: Also I don't see Davis as the best player on a title team so there's that.

Hi,
As a Turkish NBA Fan, i’ve watched almost all games of Omer in last 2 years, i can say few things about him:

Lets start with negatives:
- He is one of the worst offensive center (in starters) in the league.
- He doesn’t have any go-to moves.
- His hands are terrible.
- His post up game is very bad.

Positives:
- I’m not joking, i think he is the best defensive center in the league. Yes, he is not atlethic but he is so smart on positioning.
- He is hard worker.
- He knows he is limited offensively so doesn’t demand the ball.
- He is great one-on-one defender. I haven’t seen anyone dominating him in 2 years.
- He loves the game and wants to play so bad.

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Originally Posted by lowlife

Hi,
As a Turkish NBA Fan, i’ve watched almost all games of Omer in last 2 years, i can say few things about him:

Lets start with negatives:
- He is one of the worst offensive center (in starters) in the league.
- He doesn’t have any go-to moves.
- His hands are terrible.
- His post up game is very bad.

Positives:
- I’m not joking, i think he is the best defensive center in the league. Yes, he is not atlethic but he is so smart on positioning.
- He is hard worker.
- He knows he is limited offensively so doesn’t demand the ball.
- He is great one-on-one defender. I haven’t seen anyone dominating him in 2 years.
- He loves the game and wants to play so bad.

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Thanks for your insight, it is well appreciated!

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Originally Posted by lowlife

Hi,
As a Turkish NBA Fan, i’ve watched almost all games of Omer in last 2 years, i can say few things about him:

Lets start with negatives:
- He is one of the worst offensive center (in starters) in the league.
- He doesn’t have any go-to moves.
- His hands are terrible.
- His post up game is very bad.

Positives:
- I’m not joking, i think he is the best defensive center in the league. Yes, he is not atlethic but he is so smart on positioning.
- He is hard worker.
- He knows he is limited offensively so doesn’t demand the ball.
- He is great one-on-one defender. I haven’t seen anyone dominating him in 2 years.
- He loves the game and wants to play so bad.

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I agree with this. Wouldn't call him one of the worst offensive starters in league. There are a lot of starting centers with no offensive game, and we just had maybe the worst of all time. But you are right - no go to move, which is fine for us. Very good at running the P&R however. Again, way better than what we had last few years.

The defense and the intangibles will win everyone over here.

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Originally Posted by Schmide234

Yea I'm on the same page as you.

Also @da ThRONe, the reason you build from the draft is to try and obtain your cornerstone player. We got that with our very first draft in Anthony Davis. After that most of those picks are going to end up being pretty useless if you truly did get a great player. The reason teams like Cleveland and Milwakee have been stuck building through the draft is because they keep getting bad players and are stuck drafting high and getting low return. Once you have your cornerstone you move forward considering yourself a contender and building around that.

Only team where this isn't the case is OKC where they had a series of phenomenal picks. Most teams don't get so lucky.

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You need more then one cornerstone to be competitive. Dallas is a rare example where they only had one legit superstar and even then Chandler was playing like the best defensive player in the league those playoffs and the rest of them team had career games at key times, all led by a top 5 coach.

This isn't to say our method won't be successful but giving away draft picks like candy can be disastrous. Go look at that Bill Simmons article revisiting the previous drafts. Lots of great talent is found in the draft outside of the top ten and even into the second round. A pick is an asset. For instance look at the pick we gave up for Jerryd Bayless. It turned into number 18 in that draft. At 18 guys like Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons were still on the board. The later of which we talk about on here constantly as being the perfect SF for our team. We gave that opportunity up for a temporary rental.

Don't just try and arrogantly dismiss others who put a value on draft picks and other means of building their roster, because there is good reasoning behind a lot of what people are saying. The spurs wouldn't be where they are today if they dumped their draft picks for role players to put around Duncan instead of taking a risk on guys like Parker, Leonard and Ginoboli.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Can you be more specific? is there a starting point for reference? Just in general I would have taken my time and build the team via the draft.

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I gotcha, so no signing Ryno, no trade for Jrue and no sign and trade for 'Reke? The OKC or Spurs model?

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

You need more then one cornerstone to be competitive. Dallas is a rare example where they only had one legit superstar and even then Chandler was playing like the best defensive player in the league those playoffs and the rest of them team had career games at key times, all led by a top 5 coach.

This isn't to say our method won't be successful but giving away draft picks like candy can be disastrous. Go look at that Bill Simmons article revisiting the previous drafts. Lots of great talent is found in the draft outside of the top ten and even into the second round. A pick is an asset. For instance look at the pick we gave up for Jerryd Bayless. It turned into number 18 in that draft. At 18 guys like Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons were still on the board. The later of which we talk about on here ad nauseous as being the perfect SF for our team. We have that opportunity up for a temporary rental.

Don't just try and arrogantly dismiss others who put a value on draft picks and other means of building their roster, because there is good reasoning behind a lot of what people are saying.

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Of the final four teams 3 of their core's were at least 75% drafted players by their respective team.

OKC-Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka 100%
IND- Hibbert/George/West/Stevenson 75%
SAS-Duncan/Ginobili/Parker/Leonard 100%
MIA- Wade/Bosh/James 33%

It is physically impossible to be worse than Steimsma. Maybe he's as bad, but you don't get worse than him. Right in that Brenden Haywood sweet spot.



I mean, sweat spot.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Same as I've told MVP if you are really interested into my take on things they are well documented here.

edit: Also I don't see Davis as the cornerstone player so there's that.

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please explain why you don't.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Of the final four teams 3 of their core's were at least 75% drafted players by their respective team.

OKC-Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka 100%
IND- Hibbert/George/West/Stevenson 75%
SAS-Duncan/Ginobili/Parker/Leonard 100%
MIA- Wade/Bosh/James 33%

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Why just the final 4, Because it proves your point? What about the past 5 champions? What about the last years playoff teams?

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Originally Posted by kclaboy504

please explain why you don't.

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Don't ask, will get us no where.

I don't know why some of you guys worry so much about DaThrone's opinion. Why continue to waste so much time trying to change or argue what he thinks when clearly it's not working. Just breathe and recite this(if you're a believer):

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

Woosahh...Can we get back to the draft now? Lol

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Of the final four teams 3 of their core's were at least 75% drafted players by their respective team.

OKC-Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka 100%
IND- Hibbert/George/West/Stevenson 75%
SAS-Duncan/Ginobili/Parker/Leonard 100%
MIA- Wade/Bosh/James 33%

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of the 16 playoff teams how many teams "cores' were all drafted by that team?

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Originally Posted by Sujaguar00

I gotcha, so no signing Ryno, no trade for Jrue and no sign and trade for 'Reke? The OKC or Spurs model?

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Not necessary any teams model. You can't realistically think it can be done the same exact way as any other team. However I would start with the draft for our core players then fill in on any misses through FA and trade with the cap space having a core of rookie contracts allow.

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

Why just the final 4, Because it proves your point? What about the past 5 champions? What about the last years playoff teams?

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exactly lol

Indeed. Throne was one of most well known critics of Davis predraft.

Gotta hand it to him. He's been consistent.

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBar

Why just the final 4, Because it proves your point? What about the past 5 champions? What about the last years playoff teams?

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Because as a GM that is my goal. To be a title contender not just a playoff team.

Let's look at the champions. I'll bold which one's fit the drafted core model:

Spurs
Heat
Heat
Mavs
Lakers
Lakers
Celtics
Spurs

The past decade very few teams were able to be successful via the OKC/Spurs model with all the stars wanting to join up.

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Originally Posted by kclaboy504

please explain why you don't.

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I miss interpreted what he was saying and edited my comment already.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I think anybody that is familiar with my post the last 3 years or so will tell you I'm equally as opinionate before. I have laid out at each stage what it is I would have done differently starting with the Eric Gordon situation. If you truly interested you can go back and check if you really think I'm using the power of hindsight. I even made a thread assuming the role of GM last offseason. Dig it up if you like.

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I'm more so interested in which teams in similar situations as the Pelicans in 2012, you feel are further along?

I guess my point is, we started with pretty much a RFA Eric Gordon, Pick #1, and Pick #10 in 2012. Now we have a team two years later that will be competing for a playoff spot while being one of the youngest teams in the league.

Would you trade our roster and situation for any non playoff teams that's currently in the lottery? What about playoff teams... Would you trade our roster for Hornets, Mavs, Grizzlies, Hawks, Nets, or Wizards?

Point being, we're in year 3 of a complete rebuild. What Dell has accomplished, especially considering he screwed up by matching Gordon, is very impressive.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

I'm more so interested in which teams in similar situations as the Pelicans in 2012, you feel are further along?

I guess my point is, we started with pretty much a RFA Eric Gordon, Pick #1, and Pick #10 in 2012. Now we have a team two years later that will be competing for a playoff spot while being one of the youngest teams in the league.

Would you trade our roster and situation for any non playoff teams that's currently in the lottery? What about playoff teams... Would you trade our roster for Hornets, Mavs, Grizzlies, Hawks, Nets, or Wizards?

Point being, we're in year 3 of a complete rebuild. What Dell has accomplished, especially considering he screwed up by matching Gordon, is very impressive.

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Here's my problem I don't think this roster is sustainable and it still isn't a guaranteed playoff team let alone a title contender. If you think we can afford to re-sign all of Asik/Anderson/Holiday/Evans all in the next 1-3 years while adding necessary depth and doing it without having a deep playoff run then I can see why people are more on the positive side. I on the other hand see this as a tiny chance of happening.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Same as I've told MVP if you are really interested into my take on things they are well documented here.

edit: Also I don't see Davis as the best player on a title team so there's that.

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So I could understand more that you never previously answered. What does Davis have to do to prove that he's on pace to be a number one option in a championship team? He's ahead of his time and getting better yearly, donyounreally think he wont? Do you fell Drummond will be a number one option on a championship.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Because as a GM that is my goal. To be a title contender not just a playoff team.

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Two of those four have the two best players in the league. Another has one of the best players of all time.

If Davis becomes one of the 2 or 3 best players in the league, it doesn't matter how the rest of the team was built around him as long as there are some good players... they'll still make the conference finals worst case scenario at some point.

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Originally Posted by Trell

So I could understand more that you never previously answered. What does Davis have to do to prove that he's on pace to be a number one option in a championship team? He's ahead of his time and getting better yearly, donyounreally think he wont? Do you fell Drummond will be a number one option on a championship.

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Davis isn't really that go to guy. The majority of his production is in PNR and as a cutter. He has to be able to dominate with the ball. When he does that consistently I'll think he could be the best player on a championship team.

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Originally Posted by bradael

Two of those four have the two best players in the league. Another has one of the best players of all time.

If Davis becomes one of the 2 or 3 best players in the league, it doesn't matter how the rest of the team was built around him as long as there are some good players... they'll still make the conference finals worst case scenario at some point.

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I don't agree with Davis not being a cornerstone but I also don't buy into just add good players around AD and we'll be champions either. There needs to be at least one other game changing type player on this team. We have reached our quota on specialists and role players. It's time to get a dynamic player on this roster to help out AD. We can do this if we select the right SF.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Here's my problem I don't think this roster is sustainable and it still isn't a guaranteed playoff team let alone a title contender. If you think we can afford to re-sign all of Asik/Anderson/Holiday/Evans all in the next 1-3 years while adding necessary depth and doing it without having a deep playoff run then I can see why people are more on the positive side. I on the other hand see this as a tiny chance of happening.

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Those are legit concerns, but 3 yrs is a long time in the NBA. Our roster from 2011 to now is drastically different.

Duncan/Ginobili/Parker is becoming the exception, not the rule. The NBA is changing and waiting for teams to develop into contenders takes time and patience that GM's and coaches simply don't have. Injuries, bad luck, poor coaching, misses in the draft all lead to major changes and starting from scratch.

I understand the "build through the draft" approach, I just don't know how viable it is today when free agents wanting to team up and the short leash teams have.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

You need more then one cornerstone to be competitive. Dallas is a rare example where they only had one legit superstar and even then Chandler was playing like the best defensive player in the league those playoffs and the rest of them team had career games at key times, all led by a top 5 coach.

This isn't to say our method won't be successful but giving away draft picks like candy can be disastrous. Go look at that Bill Simmons article revisiting the previous drafts. Lots of great talent is found in the draft outside of the top ten and even into the second round. A pick is an asset. For instance look at the pick we gave up for Jerryd Bayless. It turned into number 18 in that draft. At 18 guys like Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons were still on the board. The later of which we talk about on here constantly as being the perfect SF for our team. We gave that opportunity up for a temporary rental.

Don't just try and arrogantly dismiss others who put a value on draft picks and other means of building their roster, because there is good reasoning behind a lot of what people are saying. The spurs wouldn't be where they are today if they dumped their draft picks for role players to put around Duncan instead of taking a risk on guys like Parker, Leonard and Ginoboli.

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I get what you are trying to say, but hindsight is 20/20. Of course those guys were on the board at 18, but what is the likelihood that you actually pick that guy? You GM and coach have to be truly brilliant to pick a guy late in the draft, or you have to get lucky.

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Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

I don't agree with Davis not being a cornerstone but I also don't buy into just add good players around AD and we'll be champions either. There needs to be at least one other game changing type player on this team. We have reached our quota on specialists and role players. It's time to get a dynamic player on this roster to help out AD. We can do this if we select the right SF.

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Arent Jrue and Tyreke better than anyone LBJ ever had in Cleveland? Possible to argue Ryno and Asik are as good as anyone he ever had?

Jrue/Tyreke/Asik/Anderson or the next four guys after Durant in OKC?

Multiple ways to skin a cat. If Davis becomes that good, this team has more than enough talent around him. The question is: Will he become THAT good? I bet on yes.

Not only are the Spurs the only Champion in the past decade to have a drafted core Big 3/Big 4, but you cant even really count Ginobli. He's a Marques Colston level stroke of luck - he didnt even play in the US for the next 3 years after being drafted 58th. And you wouldnt tell teams "You cant win the Superbowl unless you turn your 7th rounder into a starter".

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Arent Jrue and Tyreke better than anyone LBJ ever had in Cleveland? Possible to argue Ryno and Asik are as good as anyone he ever had?

Jrue/Tyreke/Asik/Anderson or the next four guys after Durant in OKC?

Multiple ways to skin a cat. If Davis becomes that good, this team has more than enough talent around him. The question is: Will he become THAT good? I bet on yes.

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Point taken but none of those teams won anything which was my point.

Also, I stand firmly in the Reke is vastly overrated by everyone on PelsReport bucket. He's a shooting guard that needs to play point but not actually good enough to play point. Not that appealing to me personally.

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Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

Point taken but none of those teams won anything which was my point.

Also, I stand firmly in the Reke is vastly overrated by everyone on PelsReport bucket. He's a shooting guard that needs to play point but not actually good enough to play point. Not that appealing to me personally.

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They didnt win ANYTHING?

If the goal is title or bust, and everything else is a failure, odds say prepare to be disappointed. Best you can do is make yourself a contender and put yourself in position to have a chance. Those teams did that with inferior supporting casts.

Isn't next year's draft supposed to be pretty bad anyways? Looks that way based on current mocks

Which goes back to the Memphis team people say needs to be deconstructed. If they can move Prince and net Salmons, and a 2nd rounder...they wont need to take it apart, they will just need to figure out to do with all the extra cash once they wave Salmons. Go grab a few extra pieces, allow Q-Pon to come back healthy, locked and loaded for another WCF run.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Here's my problem I don't think this roster is sustainable and it still isn't a guaranteed playoff team let alone a title contender. If you think we can afford to re-sign all of Asik/Anderson/Holiday/Evans all in the next 1-3 years while adding necessary depth and doing it without having a deep playoff run then I can see why people are more on the positive side. I on the other hand see this as a tiny chance of happening.

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But dude, we're entering year 3 of a complete gut job and rebuild. Again, who in the bottom 20 of the league would you trade circumstances with? You're comparing what we've done to a perfect scenario of what we could have done in your view, and that's not really all that fair. Given the circumstances, Dell has done a hell of a job. No one in this city, from fans to ownership, would be happy (except for maybe you) if we were pursuing the Magic/76ers/Bucks/Bobcats/Jazz model. That arena would be empty and AD would be counting the days til he can bounce.

Whether or not this team is sustainable, without having any idea where the cap will be in 2 or 3 years, is a conversation for another day. But it's the same conversation you eventually have if you're successful whether you're the Celtics/Heat or Spurs/Thunder.

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Originally Posted by Bee-Fense

Isn't next year's draft supposed to be pretty bad anyways? Looks that way based on current mocks

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Amen. This is why I don't get why people are flipping out about this trade. The only problem is, next year we will be in the sellers spot unless we can move Gordon, meaning we will be moving heaven and earth to unload that contract if we want to stay competitive with the rest of the market in terms of slashing salary.

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Originally Posted by DroopyDawg

LOL @ some folks in here... this is supposed to be the deepest draft in years and you see damm near every team in the top 10 trying to trade the pick.

Next year's draft won't be half as good as this one and people are whining about giving up a pick for a guy that just might put us over the top (and get us in the playoffs). Asik is one of the better defensive bigs in the league that rebounds like crazy.

But nah we don't need him let's keep our draft pick that we might want to trade anyway lol!

I love this trade. Him and AD are gonna be sick on our front line, and we FINALLY get a big that can board. Good job Dell.

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That's some fantastic posting right there ladies and gentlemen!

I think again I'm being blamed for having a differing opinion and expressing it. Therefore a lot of people here are asking what I would do differently than proceed to attack me because my way isn't fool proof.

People are making the assumption that I'm saying we can't do it Demps ' way. I would never say things as definitive because I can't predict the future. However I see the problems with his way and think another way is better. If you agree cool, if you want me to explain cool, if you disagree cool, but stop making it seem like I'm trying to steal Christmas because I don't think it's the best way for us to compete for titles.

What is the best way to compete for rings da ThRONe

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

They didnt win ANYTHING?

If the goal is title or bust, and everything else is a failure, odds say prepare to be disappointed. Best you can do is make yourself a contender and put yourself in position to have a chance. Those teams did that with inferior supporting casts.

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My bad. I thought we were discussing championships. I agree that a superior player and a decent/good supporting cast can get you close to where you're trying to go.