The myth that the Pels are bad at developing players

[msusousaphone]

So I've heard/read people casually throwing around how bad the Pels are at drafting and developing players. I didn't think much of it at first....but then I was watching a BKM episode yesterday and they were really laying into it. Even saying it should be something we should consider when evaluating players in this draft since we wouldn't be able to develop any player that isn't completely polished before we get our inept hands on them. That segment was followed up with the same guys talking up Herb and TMIII in trade scenarios. When one of the guys mentioned that Trey comes back every season with a new skill added to his game it really had me going down a rabbit hole of Pelicans player development.

This isn't to bash BKM. I'm still listening to them. Liked and subscribed. Same thing with Jake Madison at Locked on Pels. I am loving that we actually have Pels content to listen to and want them here to stay....but they also deleted my comment pointing out this contradiction which really got my brain going so now you all have to read this thread here.

Anyways. Let's analyze how well we develop players. Here's who we've drafted since 2020 (I only included guys we drafted who didn't get traded prior to that season they were drafted, also I'll throw in Naji and Jose):

Kira Lewis #13 2020
Naji Marshall undrafted 2020
Trey Murphy III #17 2021
Herb Jones #35 2021
Jose Alvarado undrafted 2021
Dyson Daniels #8 2022
EJ Lidell #41 2022
Karlo Matkovic #52 2022
Jordan Hawkins #14 2023
Yves Missi #21 2024

The NBA is hard to keep up with since players get drafted and then traded to other teams so fast.....did I miss any young players drafted by another team and then sent to us? Check my work.

Anyways. Let's start with the bad and Kira Lewis Jr. I had to go back five years ago to find our biggest whiff. I could make excuses for the guy since the poor dude was more a victim of the #pelslife injury curse than an actual development bust. He was coming along fine before he tore his ACL and sprained his MCL in 2021. He never looked the same since. But the haters don't have much going for them so I'll give 'em this....he did not live up to the expectations of a 13th pick.

Jordan Hawkins. The jury is still out for Hawkins. The kid is only 23 entering his third year. I'll also point out that if we look at NBA 2K ratings for 14th overall picks (yeah, I'm embarassed to pull out this stat), the other teams in the league haven't exactly lit it up there either. But I think we can all agree that his current trajectory is disappointing so we'll let the negatives have him, too.

And that's it for the bad. In five years we have one guy who was derailed by injuries and another who is trending not so good but still has time to suprise us.

Let's get EJ Liddell out of the way. I mean....he's still in the league. That's kind of good for the 41st overall pick (outside of Jokic) but we still won't claim him on the positive side.

The first four positives are pretty obvious. Jose and Naji went undrafted. That's not unheard of in the NBA but it's pretty stellar for guys to go undrafted and to be playing at the level GTAlvarado Naji do. Herb Jones. Enough said. Way outplaying the pick 35 slot. And Trey.....the best 17th pick still active in the NBA. Very much outplaying his pick.

To continue the positives, Missi is very early to be claiming victory but this thread is about development and he clearly outplayed his expectations last season which is a major sign of good development.

Haters will be mad I'm claiming Dyson Daniels as a sign the Pelicans develop players well but it's not like the guy went to ATL and took three years to explode. The kid was traded July of 2024. We clearly had more to do with his development than ATL did.

And last is Matkovich. He's not blowing up the league but only Camara for Portland is doing better at pick 52. He is absolutely outplaying expectations.

THAT IS DEVELOPMENT. These players didn't just magically all do better than their expectations on their own. If it were one or three guys, maybe that's a coincidence...but this many successes and so few failures is irrefutable.

In conclusion. In the past five years we've had two disappointments in Kira and Hawkins (so far).....unless I've missed someone.

We've also developed seven players into vastly outplaying their expectations. I haven't done a deep dive into the other teams around the league but I'm fairly certain that puts us as one of the top teams at developing players. Yes, we lost Vinson and some scouting guys with the new regime coming in so we'll see if we continue this pretty great streak but we should definitely put the "New Orleans can't develop players" myth to rest.

Jeremiah Robinson-Earl was 2021 but I'm not really sure how to rate his development with us since he started in NY. I think it's positive...

[ml wave]

A large part of development is putting guys in an environment where they can succeed. Having Dyson on the floor with 2-3 other players who can't stretch the floor (take your pick, Jonas, Zion, Herb, Naji, etc.) was not very conducive to his development. To give us credit for his development is a little silly...he won Most Improved Player, not Best Developed By His Previous Team. I'm not sure Matkovic is "blowing up the league" but, sure, good enough result for a late 2nd rounder...wasn't he pretty clearly developed in Europe though? Basically all of the development successes you listed are guys that played 3-4 years of college (and thus required less development? Has Jose, or Herb for that matter, really developed his game since we've had them?)--the top 3 draft assets were all misses.

[msusousaphone]

If the development of the players happened at college or in Europe they would have been drafted higher.

The argument that the Pels are bad at developing players and the Hawks are mostly responsible for Dyson's development doesn't hold water because it would mean that he just sat here not developing for two years and then BOOM the Hawks performed a miracle in three months.

[JJackisangry]

I think Willie is great at getting individual performances out of players and getting them to do the basics. Probably one of the biggest weaknesses I have seen from New Orleans players is a lack of individual skill in the past and Willie has clearly helped improve a lot of player's handles and some of the basics.

What I have seen the Willie era struggle with immensely is team play. There is often a complete lack of cohesion and things can fall apart real quick if the defense makes an adjustment. His lineups and adjustments have been the problem more than his player development. A bad environment is created when players start losing or unperforming perinnieally and that is what I think has happened. You have to get the confidence back and that starts with winning.

[msusousaphone]

Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

I think our development has been great. Maybe even league best. Our utilization has been questionable and free agency/trades have been abysmal.

[ml wave]

If the development of the players happened at college or in Europe they would have been drafted higher.

The argument that the Pels are bad at developing players and the Hawks are mostly responsible for Dyson's development doesn't hold water because it would mean that he just sat here not developing for two years and then BOOM the Hawks performed a miracle in three months.

Matkovic played in Europe for years after he was drafted. And if Daniels was developed under us, why wasn't he this good for us? I think the point that you're trying to make is that we've been really good not at developing but at drafting.

[msusousaphone]

Yeah. I think people making comments saying the Pels are bad at developing players are just going off of feelings because seasons have been disappointing. They'll never be able to back it up with facts when pushed aside from weak arguments.

[RobertM320]

Matkovic played in Europe for years after he was drafted. And if Daniels was developed under us, why wasn't he this good for us? I think the point that you're trying to make is that we've been really good not at developing but at drafting.

To be fair, was Daniels ever really given the chance here that he got in Atlanta? Putting him on the floor with the wrong players, limiting his opportunities on offense, those kinds of things aren't his fault. We knew right away he was developing into an elite defender.

[ml wave]

To be fair, was Daniels ever really given the chance here that he got in Atlanta? Putting him on the floor with the wrong players, limiting his opportunities on offense, those kinds of things aren't his fault. We knew right away he was developing into an elite defender.

That's development!!!! Putting them in the right places surrounded by the right people, etc. That's the whole point!

[msusousaphone]

It's not, though. People conflate development with utilization. Those are two completely different things with completely different staff.

I'm sorry. There isn't a logical argument for anyone saying the Pelicans are bad at developing players. The leading so far is "ok ok, they have had way above the league average in drafted players who became good but it was despite the staff, they just did it on their own. Jose, TMIII, Herb, Dyson, Missi..they all exceeded expectations on their own but that one Hawkins guy that didn't....yeah that one guy is the only guy the staff worked with". It's just bad.

But don't take my word for it. Check out these actual statistics and then see how incredible it is we've been so successful....oh wait..sorry. I mean how incredible it is that we've had so many players coincidentally develop on their own.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...tent=post_body

[ml wave]

It's not, though. People conflate development with utilization. Those are two completely different things with completely different staff.

I'm sorry. There isn't a logical argument for anyone saying the Pelicans are bad at developing players. The leading so far is "ok ok, they have had way above the league average in drafted players who became good but it was despite the staff, they just did it on their own. Jose, TMIII, Herb, Dyson, Missi..they all exceeded expectations on their own but that one Hawkins guy that didn't....yeah that one guy is the only guy the staff worked with". It's just bad.

But don't take my word for it. Check out these actual statistics and then see how incredible it is we've been so successful....oh wait..sorry. I mean how incredible it is that we've had so many players coincidentally develop on their own.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...tent=post_body

Putting players in the proper roles and surrounding them with things they need to succeed is the most important thing a team can do to develop players. It's not adding a step-back 3 or something (which is what they do in the offseason with their trainers anyway). Setting aside the hilarity of crediting the Pels for "developing" Dyson (don't worry, I know you're trolling), I'm curious how you think Jose and Herb have "developed"? They are basically the same players now as they were in summer league. And maybe we should have used some of our magical development powers on the most important player in the organization the last 5 years...you know, the one who's added nothing to his game and if anything has gone developmentally backwards (career high in 3 pointers was in his first game).

[msusousaphone]

So....you really believe that Dyson Daniels got drafted, came here for two season. TWO SEASONS. Didn't develop at all. Like he got here as a 19 year old, left here at 21. We didn't do jack with him. He left at 21 the same as he was at 19. Then he went to ATL in July and in those three months ATL had him, he just, boom, blossomed that much. In three months? Because you think that highly of the ATL training staff. That's why they win all them chips. They're Just known for churning players out left and right over there.

They must have gotten one of them hyperbolic time chambers from Goku. He was probably training in there for 4 years to make up for all that time he just sat around in NOLA and it just felt like three months.

And man. It's like you're blind to players developing and entering into their prime. Herb and Jose are better than they were their first summer league.

Lawd.

See this hill is such a bad one to stand on because the only way to defend it is to pretend Jose, Missi, TMIII, Herb and the like are just as good or bad as when we drafted them.

[ml wave]

So....you really believe that Dyson Daniels got drafted, came here for two season. TWO SEASONS. Didn't develop at all. Like he got here as a 19 year old, left here at 21. We didn't do jack with him. He left at 21 the same as he was at 19. Then he went to ATL in July and in those three months ATL had him, he just, boom, blossomed that much. In three months? Because you think that highly of the ATL training staff. That's why they win all them chips. They're Just known for churning players out left and right over there.

They must have gotten one of them hyperbolic time chambers from Goku. He was probably training in there for 4 years to make up for all that time he just sat around in NOLA and it just felt like three months.

And man. It's like you're blind to players developing and entering into their prime. Herb and Jose are better than they were their first summer league.

Lawd.

See this hill is such a bad one to stand on because the only way to defend it is to pretend Jose, Missi, TMIII, Herb and the like are just as good or bad as when we drafted them.

We didn't just keep Dyson hidden in a lab somewhere for two years and then he emerged in Atlanta as a great player. We actually put him on the court and he struggled. If we were so great at developing him, why did it not show when he was here? I think Trey has developed wonderfully and that's about it for our development success. Again, if we're so amazing at developing players, why haven't we developed Zion at all?