He would be a great fit to take on the Larry Nance role.Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
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He would be a great fit to take on the Larry Nance role.
At this point, any big who is alive would be a great help.
Basketball.
Y'all are romanticizing AD. We found out over and over again the guy couldn't get anything done on his own and got erased when it mattered.
The board has been hijacked with the hyperbole that "he's definitely getting traded" and ridiculously undervaluing BI like he's just some role player for weeks. You guys don't have to respond to every single post. It's ok to let the people who want to talk about BI in a positive light or what this Big 3 and team will look like with him on it without trying to bury it under a lot of negativity.
BI, Zion, and CJ had a net rating of +3 when on the court together. BI and Zion had a +13.4, BI and CJ had a +13.2, Zion and CJ was just +5.4.
BI and Zion worked. BI and CJ worked. It was CJ and Zion and all three together that didn't work.
Contributor
I feel the same could be said about Willie/Griff
The problem is Brandon's game isn't conducive to being a #2. He won't play off ball, and he won't shoot 3s. His game requires the usage rate of a #1, but he's not good enough. It's not a matter of money and quality of player anymore - we need to be better as a basketball team and he hinders us from doing that.
It’s looking like a BI 2024-25. If I am Willie, Griffin, whoever, I am emphasizing that BI work on his off ball game. That has to be his mission for this season. It’s up to him really. It solves a ton of issues if he can successfully convert into a guy that can defer more effectively.
True.
Brandon's issues, IMO, are all mental. His game style is often like a #1 alpha dog but the results fall flat.
And I think we need to back up some times and remember this team looked really great when healthy. Top three in the West only separated by a few games. The offense was humming. BI and Zion did fit together and the stats show it...but that's not the crunch.
When Zion was out, BI fell flat. Because he's not a big dog. Similar to CJ playing amazing during the regular season but as soon as he had to step up to be the #2, his play fell apart just like Ingram's. So we do know what BI is a solid #2 and CJ is a solid #3 but when injuries force them to move up, we're not winning.
BI's miserable season goes back further than that, though....it goes back to the Team USA issues. Team USA decided to build around ANT and make everyone else role players. Hindsight has proven this to be an awful decision since the team failed miserably but BI failed to integrate into that system. It was a giant shot to his ego. IMO, he's never looked the same since. He looked like a different person all season. He wasn't able to mentally recover from that with a short break. This contract issue is bigger than I think most people realize in that BI has two futures in front of him......1) accept that he's the #2 guy...the sidekick to Zion....accept that money and accept that role or 2) go be the top dog on a non-contending team. If he accepts the sidekick contract and continues to settle in and accept the sidekick role, he really would become the perfect player. Keep in mind he's only 26. That's about the age we start to accept that the universe doesn't revolve around us. It's the age Lebron adopted baby AD. If he continues to demand a max, we're definitely not going to sign that. We're also not going to let him walk. A trade will happen eventually. We're letting him see how other teams value him. He's probably seeing that only losing teams see him as a #1 and want to max him out while the winning teams value him the way NOLA does. So the deciding factor isn't "what trades do we get offered" it's "does Brandon accept his sidekick role?"
On paper, looking at just their strengths, Zion +BI + Murray is a damn good trio of mixed strengths. A really nice balance. It looks like the idea was for BI to be in there. The mentality needs to be right to have it fit together, though.
Last edited by msusousaphone; 07-06-2024 at 10:44 AM.
When you start saying BI is the equivalent of AD, the hyperbole is a bit much. That may generate a statement or 2 in a fan forum. AD has been top 10 in the league, even top 5, at various points in his career. BI has been nowhere near that.
Yes. Taking it out of context like that you absolutely right. But what I was talking about is fit in a Big 3. When AD was the Big guy in the Big 3, his personality and game didn't fit that role. Just like BI's personality and game doesn't fit the role of being the big franchise player. Davis learned that he had to find his Batman and make his game fit around that player. Ingram can come to that same decision or try to go to a lesser team and play hero there. The Pelicans want him to make the 1st choice and that's why a trade didn't happen right away. They're hoping he sees his choices and realizes he would fit nicely behind Zion.
A potential problem though is if BI comes back with a chip on his shoulder determined to prove all the doubters wrong about his ability to be an alpha dog. That could turn into a real headache. It's a lot. He'd have to fundamentally change his game and mindset. He'd have to take less money than he think's he's worth. He'd have to demonstrate he could thrive as a player in that role, something that he failed epically to do on team USA. If I was laying odds, I'd say he'd opt to be the number 1 on a bad team, convinced they could build around him into a winner...
Miles Bridges has agreed a three-year, $75 million deal to return to the Hornets, per Klutch Sports CEO Rich Paul and agent Brandon Cavanaugh. https://t.co/gScH43oIgH
— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) July 6, 2024
Disgusting
The problem is that BI has never fit nicely behind Zion and that has limited Zion who clearly should be the primary option on this team. I just don?t see how you can continue to justify paying BI a ridiculous contract to do something he has never done and continuing this injury prone inconsistent offense the Pelicans continue to have. BI apparently has a far larger ego than people realize.
This, basically.
People say they games don?t work together I call bs
You need 3 pt shooting yeah ok I agree but to point out bi as the problem I can?t get with when all 3 of the main guys have their own flaws and not doing what needs to be done to make it work
Zion damn near refuses to shoot just as much as Brandon and I know somebody gone say look at his paint percentages but that?s where all his injuries come from and he has ample space and opportunities to take some shots
Cj dribble dribble dribbling and sometimes just turns into a chucker
Brandon don?t shoot 3s enough and makes occasional lazy passes
But only one guy is getting put on the spot and he?s the only one I?ve seen perform in a playoff series for us since this thing came together imagine that
He?s a big part of naji and Jose playing so well he?s a leader on this team he actually played hurt for us while one did 360 dunks pregame lol
Now for the shooting 3s
How did Lebron who did not shoot 3s and Dwayne wade who did not shoot 3s work so well if it?s so impossible ?
They both were ball dominant and played inside the paint they had actual pgs and their role players knew their roles oh and coaching was to par , I?m not a Ingram Stan but ima ride for the players I feel ride for the team /city and I don?t like the bias and how everyone is afforded an excuse except for one guy
while we wait:
https://dai.ly/kIsbyn7r9Uk9daB105u
I'm so tired of hearing you go on about Zion refusing to shoot. Zion isn't a good shooter, and his efficiency at the rim is elite on it's own, not to mention the opportunity it creates for others (and he's a willing passer and good playmaker to pair with that)
Why do we want him taking shots he isn't good at? Ingram CAN shoot 3s, both off the dribble and on catch and shoot opportunities, but just refuses to. It's just not a good fit with this roster construction. In order for Ingram to get his, it basically requires ISO ball leading to a mid-range shot. It kills ball movement, and it's easily stopped. What Zion creates cannot be stopped, so as long as we have willing shooters on the floor.
This, and further - you can't complain about CJ being ''dribble dribble dribble'' and ''turns into a chucker'' when he played the vast majority of last season off-ball. He was asked to spent more time off ball, as a catch and shoot guy, and he did exactly what was asked of him. He modified his game, taking career high volumes from 3 rather than his own preferred midrange game because that's what fits the team better. He didn't spend last year dribbling the air out of the ball at all. That's just not what happened.
As for Lebron and Wade in Miami, first of all, that was nearly 15 years ago when that started so yes, the league has changed and there is more of a requirement to shoot 3s now than there was then. That's not shocking, there's a reason people were talking about a ''3 point revolution'' around 2015/16 (note, even Lebron has now massively increased his volume of 3s, and shot more 3s in Miami than he had ever done prior).
That said, the reason that worked better than Zion/BI was because they were both willing to work off-ball. Lebron spent more time in Miami cutting and relocating off ball than he has anywhere else in his career, and that's because that's what the fit demanded of him - same was as Chris Bosh shot more 3s than he did in Toronto. Because that's what the team demanded of him. These players worked together well despite the fit not being completely natural because the players were willing to change how they played the game to make it work.
Zion can't do what Lebron did in Miami, where he just decides to become a 3pt shooter. He doesn't have that skill set. He can play off-ball, and actually does so a lot. Many of his shot attempts have come at cleaning up, or catching lay-downs at the rim, and when we had Lonzo even more of his shots came that way. He's able and willing to play off-ball, it's just off-ball like a big man, not like a wing.
Brandon Ingram is not. That's why he gets the critique more than anyone else. He's the one who refuses to adapt his game. He wants to be on-ball 90% of the time despite an Ingram-led offense producing poor results, and when he's forced off ball he refuses to take the shots the offense wants from him.
Basically, why can't BI and Zion replicated Wade and Lebron? Because Zion isn't Lebron, and BI damn sure isn't Wade.
He’s not a good shooter but in his first game ever came out a shot 4 straight 3s
The end of the season was shooting fadeaway middys lol and I’m sure shot the free throw around atleast 70 % which I’m sure will go up and used as a barometer on how well shooting in general can translate
I’m sure you are tired of hearing it obviously it’s some stuff I’m tired of hearing too so what .
Who avg the most asst on the team ?
You could say the same for Ingram why do you want him shooting a shot that he’s not good at ? He’s a decent catch and shoot 3pt shooter but off the dribble no and besides Zion he had no one to get him those opportunities
really think about what your saying ,
How many of those injuries Zion got came from relentless attacking the rack whether over 1 or 3 players I mean it’s nice and once again I wonderful highlight but common sense would say he needs to elevate other facets of his game
If you don’t think I have any kind of point we can just agree to disagree my man
I watched almost every game last year so I have to disagree he had plenty of times he dribbled the ball out the air
Just because he shot a lot of 3s I think about 8 a game doesn’t mean he wasn’t dribbling that ball a lot too
The offense has changed what has changed about the defense less big physical players ?
Lebron really wasn’t a 3pt shooter when he first got to Miami and I agree Zion can’t because he refuses to try what’s going to happen if he shoot it Willie gone sub him out ?
They aren’t Lebron and wade but it’s not because talent it’s the mentality of both guys not just one but Zion is the greatest thing since sliced bread to some
I love z but on the real he’s not doing all he can to be the best he can Kobe mj Lebron and all the greats would not let another player on the team stop them from being who they need to be point blank period he has his moments but that’s all he hasn’t decided to be great yet and until he does it don’t matter who on the court y’all could have a young peja out there and it wouldn’t be a difference if he don’t decide to lock in but we can continue to ignore that until he ask to get traded
Ain’t it funny how David griffin said he didn’t think we needed a point guard then went an traded for one and Brandon said we need one and he’s probably going to get traded now we have one
So Jonas Valanciunas to the Wizards is a sign-and-trade deal. Pelicans create a $9.9 million exception. They also get a 2027 second-round pick, which originally belonged to Chicago. Top 50-protected, per source.
— Christian Clark (@cclark_13) July 6, 2024
Trade complete, we have a TPE of a decent size that Griff probably won't use.
Yet another example of the media having no idea what's actually going on with the team. They play everything so close to the vest it's mind boggling.
At this point I expect Ingram to be signed to something that is hopefully team friendly. I would really like to see what the team can do as currently set up with the addition of a starting big that can just rebound and protect the rim a bit as well as a decent backup for Zion at the 4.
It's been a long time coming for this team to have a legit starting point. He is going to make everyone else's life so much easier.
Last edited by P_B_&_G; 07-06-2024 at 03:50 PM.
The fact that you have used this same point multiple times as evidence, while completely ignoring that that was 5 years ago and he has since shot 25/81 (30%) from 3 over 4 years, is part of why this discussion is so difficult with you. You've latched on to this idea that Zion should be getting the same critique as BI despite them being completely different types of players. Of course BI, the shot-creating wing who works on the perimeter, gets different criticism from the slashing heavy driving PF. It's not that complicated.
I want Ingram shooting the catch and shoot 3s he gets, which he is good at. If he would take some more off-the-dribbles, that would be cool, but I'm not begging for it. What I want is for him to SHOOT. THE. BALL. When he catches it at 24 feet wide open, instead of dribbling into a contested 18 footer. If he would do that, there would be so much less frustration for everyone involved. He doesn't want to. That's different from not being able to do something.
Nobody is saying that Zion doesn't need to work on any other facet of his game. Everyone was happy when he started shooting those 8-10 foot jumpers. Nobody wants him to do it all the time, because it's a less efficient shot, but more tools in the bag for when you need them is good. What people are arguing against is the idea that he needs to start jacking up 3s all the time. Sometimes, maybe, would be nice. Try to at least pretend to be a threat from there. But nobody wants him taking 5 a game, because it's just bad offense. It kills the offense when someone who is a non-shooter decides to brick when there's a better shot they could easily get to instead.
That's very different to BI, because (again, as everyone has been saying for years) he can shoot. He can already do it! We're just asking him to actually do the thing he is perfectly capable of doing, and which is a better shot choice than the one he prefers!
It's not a contradiction. Shots at the rim are the most valuable shots. Zion can get them better than anyone but Giannis, so he should keep getting them instead of choosing worse shots. Other than shots at the rim, 3s are the best shots. BI can get them, so he should get them. Zion gets the most efficient shot, and takes it, BI doesn't. That's why Zion isn't getting the same criticism. This is not rocket science.
Lebron wasn't a 3pt shooter when he got to Miami but he became one very quickly, neverthless, the point is that Lebron has an off-ball skill set and he used it. Zion also has an off-ball skill set, and he uses it. He has used it before, he still uses it now.
And who cares if ''Willie gone sub him out ?'' - what happens is the offense becomes terrible. Who cares if Willie leaves him on the court, if him doing it makes the offense garbage? The entire point of Zion is that he supercharges your offense. If he's out there and he's wasting possessions shooting 3s just for the sake of it, trying to make up for the fact that the guy who can actually hit them refuses to do so, then your offense sucks and there's no point of having him out there. Might as well sit him, because you aren't using him right and it's ruining the on-court result.
It absolutely is a talent issue. Zion is great - he is not prime Lebron, and BI is good but he is for damn sure not Wade. Not even close. Not in the same universe.
Yeah, we're going to have to. I don't know how many times I can take ''but he shot 4/4 in his first game'' before my head explodes.
I've said it a million times, I still believe it. This is what is the most likely outcome, to me:
- BI is going to re-sign for a number that functionally breaks the team because Griff cannot bear to let him go ($50m a year area)
- With no money and no options, we sign some centre off the trash heap to take up space - maybe it's Zeller, Theis, whoever
- We start next year with Trey glued to the bench, and because BI's still here and CJ won't go to the bench, Herb will too
- Starting lineup of DJM/CJ/BI/Zion/Whoever will be hot garbage but Willie will refuse to ever change it
- We will nevertheless win 45-ish games purely on talent level plus a great bench because Herb and Trey will carry it
- People will use that as ''proof'' that BI getting that money was the right choice
- Team gets smashed in the playoffs because the fit is garbage
- Team slowly falls apart over the next few years as the BI contract forces us to sell guys off to avoid paying them, or not retain them in FA (like Naji and Jonas) due to price
- Zion requests trade in year 7 or 8 due to failure to ever get out of the first round
Could something else happen? Sure. I hope so. Maybe BI suddenly gets his head screwed on straight and starts gunning from 3. Maybe Griff someone gets BI to take $37m a year. Maybe CJ volunteers to go to the bench so Trey can start. Maybe maybe maybe. Doubt all of it.
That’s cool bro and on the Zion at 30 percent
Herb jones who’s not the star of this team was at about 33 percent his first two years and now he’s at 41 or 42
So why can’t out max player develop that part of his game does that not make him and the team better ?
Luka doncic shot 31 32 his first two years and 34 the year before last 38 last year does that not make them better
Y’all bring up everybody shooting 3s except Z
Embiid shoots em jokic shoots them
But Zion can’t or he’s unwilling ?
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