It's no hate it's just hard to envision Herb and TM3 both out of the starting lineupOriginally Posted by msusousaphone
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It's no hate it's just hard to envision Herb and TM3 both out of the starting lineup
Think the Paul ship has sailed, but I'd for sure be open to bringing him back as part of the roster shakeup.
Part of the appeal with Allen to me is he's another guy on an extremely favorable contract with another 20 million season after this one. So that's your core 4 players (Z, Herb, DJM, Allen) making just about 100 million combined in the 2025 offseason, that leaves you with enough room to pay Murphy and then push a CJ and picks all in type of trade for a star player and still be under the tax/hardcap potentially.
I love Trey. Absolutely love him. He'll probably never be on BI's level. His very tip top ceiling is there but he's only two years younger. Moving BI to get great C is a good argument. So is moving him because we still need to grab a C and we have to make the salary cap work. Moving him because Trey and Herb need to start is not a the one, though. That's like saying you're not going to finish your Gordan Ramsey cooked steak because you have to save room for a Big Mac.
Woj was on SC again saying "the intent of the Pelicans is to sign BI to an extension". Verbatim. Maybe it's smoke we're putting out to raise the BI market but that's not really our MO. It's more likely BI stays. It's possible they never agree to terms and a trade is made.
Last edited by msusousaphone; 06-29-2024 at 05:12 PM.
BI, Zion, and CJ had a net rating of +3 when on the court together. BI and Zion had a +13.4, BI and CJ had a +13.2, Zion and CJ was just +5.4.
BI and Zion worked. BI and CJ worked. It was CJ and Zion and all three together that didn't work.
Any team that would consider moving Ingram for JA is a team that will consistently be less than mediocre. I'm certain the front office isn't silly enough to make that kind of move. You don't trade all-star level talent for a good role player. Unless the all-star talent is a locker room cancer, or demands a trade.
Brandon Ingram is a 1x All-star. Jarrett Allen is a 1x All-star.
The idea that these players are just on vastly different levels of quality is a complete fabrication that you can only believe if you think that the best measure of how good a player is depends on how many contested middies they can hit.
They play different positions, and BI's position is generally more valuable, so that would generally put him on a higher pedestal, but we are not talking about a general trade for just any team, are we? We're specifically talking about the Pelicans, who have an absolute glut of wings, scoring wings, defending wings, et cetera, and yet have a complete dearth of functional centres. For us, yet another wing is not that valuable unless they are a true difference maker and 5 years of evidence has shown that Brandon Ingram is not that. A centre, meanwhile - especially a C who has finished top 10 in DPOY voting multiple times, is cheaper than BI and, yes, younger too - is extremely valuable to us because we cannot replace that production at that position.
Basketball.
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— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) June 29, 2024
More at @TheAthletic with @anthonyVslater: https://t.co/Akkl8cSmni
If you accuse other posters of cherry picking, then you shouldn’t be posting comments like that my dude. That is a complete oversimplification of what he brings to the table. Argue all you want about their values and whatnot. Leave that stuff out. I disagree on Allen personally but I can see the argument for him at least. We do have a glut of wings as you said. We do need to get more than just Allen in a swap (imo)
Look, I'm not saying GS are going to tear it down.
But Griff owes it to everyone to call about Steph Curry.
We couldn't outbid OKC or Utah, probably, but we could outbid anyone else.
You invalidate your entire post, and perspective on all things Ingram when you make these kind of statements. It's hard to take you serious.
With that being said, it's pointless going back and forth with you about something that will never happen. It's something only a fool would do. There isn't an organization on earth that would do it. So I guess it doesn't matter if it's something you believe is feasible. It's simply not happening.
I don't think it's cherry picking at all. That's the only thing Ingram does at an all-league level, and if you value that over rim protection or something then sure, you can call him a vastly superior player to JA but if you don't, you can't.
Yeah my bad, I forgot that BI has led us to multiple deep playoff runs solo. He's a true difference maker like Durant or Giannis
Ingram is a three level scorer and Allen is certainly not. Ingram didn’t look his best in a subpar system last year, but he showed way more dimensions in years prior and that includes playmaking ability and the ability to drive to the hoop, hit the 3 and contested midranges as you said. I think with Zion on the floor it is much harder to justify keeping him here unless one of them changes their game, and that would have to be Ingram first and most would agree. It’s hard to just change the type of player you are overnight though.
Don't be disingenuous. It bothers me when you do that. I know that you know better. I call you MVP in this forum because your analysis is astute and well reasoned. In regards to Ingram you have a major blind spot. In no way does me conveying that Ingram is impactful, suggest that he's as impactful as Durant and Giannis. Saying things like that are inconsistent with otherwise spot on basketball takes from you. It's also a dishonest way to dialogue because we both know that isn't what I meant. You're a much better poster than your commentary on Ingram indicates. Your takes on Ingram are consistently bad.Yeah my bad, I forgot that BI has led us to multiple deep playoff runs solo. He's a true difference maker like Durant or Giannis
Last edited by Nichols; 06-29-2024 at 05:42 PM.
Ingram is a good passer but he's not all-league. He's a decent finisher at the rim but on low-volume and he doesn't get there very often (when he does, he's better). He's a good 3pt shooter but he's not elite. He's a decent defender most of the time, but he's not elite. The one thing he does at an all-league level, as good as almost anyone else, is hit the midrange.
Which is cool. It's true that JA isn't a 3 level scorer, but that's not what his player-type demands of him. His player type demands short roll passing, rim protection, and rebounding, and he delivers all of that.
The fact that his player type doesn't demand that of him is what makes - as I said earlier - the scoring wing generally more valuable than the rim protection big. In a vacuum, BI is absolutely the more valuable player. That doesn't mean he's better at his role, it just means his role is more desirable in a vacuum.
But we are not in a vacuum, so I don't care which role has more value in one. We are talking about an actual team context, with known needs, and that's what I care about.
I currently think the Pels are trying to find a C while also keeping Ingram. I also think they would rather resign BI to an extension as oppose to move him. I also (this is probably controversial but shouldn't be) think that if we are a "put all the chips in/win now" mentality that TMIII is way more tradable than BI and might even have a nicer market. I definitely value BI more than Dae does....
But all that said I will defend Dae with the BI for Allen stance in that NBA trades are very rarely fair to a neutral party's eye. We have long rumored to want Allen. There's been mixed rumors of Cleveland wanting BI. If contract negotiations breakdown between the Pels and BI and we haven't found a C, I could totally see a Allen and change for Ingram trade happening and most people will feel like we lost the trade but that's how NBA trades seem to go. It's very rare I see a trade I feel like didn't have a loser.
No where on earth is anyone discussing JA for Ingram lol.. except for here.
I like BI, but I just can't understand why he's not willing (or doesn't seem to be willing) to change one aspect of his game and take more 3s. Its not like he's a terrible shooter from out there he's actually a solid shooter from range. I love the fact that BI can get his shots in mid-range but he has to take more threes. Those contested middies are beautiful when they're falling, but when they're not he has to pull when he's open from behind the line.
If not for the Pels... he'll need to make that change in his game for someone else. He's a legit threat from out there he might as well take more of them.
I don’t think it’s realistic either. But we know nothing so never say never.
I don't care if it bothers you, I'm being truthful. BI is an excellent player but he is not a difference maker on the league level. Those guys are top 20 players, and Ingram is not - and has never been - on that level. Which is what I said when I said that we have 5 years of proof that he's not a difference maker.
If you assumed that meant something else, that's your problem. I will repeat myself.
Hopefully now that I've made it very clear what I mean by that, you won't get all defensive over it. A true difference maker is a top 20 player, or someone with the real potential of being one. BI isn't that. If he was, I'd be saying to keep him regardless of the fit issues - you don't get players like that everyday and if you have them, you move heaven and earth to adjust the fit around them; you move the other pieces and get a centre from somewhere else. But he's not that kind of player. That's what I'm saying.For us, yet another wing is not that valuable unless they are a true difference maker and 5 years of evidence has shown that Brandon Ingram is not that.
No where else would have talked about us getting Murray for Nance, Dyson, EJ, and some late 1st rounders.
They rarely make sense.
I think the main issue we have is we all know BI and Zion are going to be frequently double teamed and trapped. If we don’t have scorers that can space the floor and provide good movement off the ball, they are going to catch us with our pants down more often than not. We definitely need a big man. We definitely need to move CJ to the bench now that we have Murray. BI can easily be replaced with Trey who is imo a much better fit. Zion brings something that nobody here has, so I’d bank with him over BI. BI is just very replaceable for me.
Your bolded statement is oxymoronic. In addition, you don't get to redefine what a difference maker is to suit your preferred narrative. But I suppose this only needs to make sense to you, and you'll contort whatever logic you need to, for it to do so.
I think Trey can make up for BI's stats if BI is moved. Trey Murphy III averaged 16.3 points, 6.3 rebounds and 2.6 assists in 23 games as a starter this season, but someone will need to give us TM3's production off the bench. Maybe Hawk can be that guy if he gets the minutes.
We are in dire need of a center, so whether its a BI trade or we keep BI and find a center in free agency... we need one desperately.
Exactly my point, it's not that he's a terrible player (because he's not) or that he has no value to anyone (because he does) but what he does on this team is not the best fit and there are other fits who are ready to replace him.
Let's be realistic here. Let's say BI is an 8/10 player. I don't think he is, necessarily, but just use that as the baseline.
Right now, we have no starting C. So our starting C is a 0/10 player. Let's say we're forced to start Missi, so he's maybe a 3/10 player as a rookie.
So together, the two provide us 11/20.
Now let's imagine we trade BI for Jarrett Allen. Let's say that JA is worse than BI, even when accounting for his role. He's not an 8/10 C, he's a 6.5/10.
But then you're not going to 0/10 at the wing by losing BI, you're just moving Trey Murphy in. Even if we agree that Trey is worse than BI and will never be on his level (which again, I don't necessarily agree with, but I'll grant you it for the sake of argument here) he's maybe a 6.5/10 player too. 7/10 if you're being generous.
So what's better for your Wing/C combo?
BI + Missi = 11/20
Trey + JA = 13/20
Clearly, the latter, even though BI remains the best player out of all 4.
And that's me trying to be generous because in reality, I think BI is a 7/10 player and that Trey absolutely has the potential to be better than him (at least in terms of fit on this team), which would blow the margins open even further.
It's a feasible move. The one being discussed here isn't. On occasion, lopsided trades or uneven trades happen. If a player is disgruntled, or a cancer, or the team is desperate to move a piece for other reasons, then we have the conditions for those kind of trades. We don't have that situation here.
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