2024 Offseason Thread

[djrnno]

Griff's been fairly vocal about becoming a more dynamic offensive team, and has mentioned more shooting in each of the past few off-seasons, and clearly has drafted shooters both this year and last with Hawkins, as well as picking up Matt Ryan to add even more shooting. Green clearly does not really feel the heat or pressure to follow through on those acquisitions and desires, though.

I think that WG is on a lot thinner ice because of last yr despite the 49 wins. We should have won more , we lost every game when trailing at the start of the 4th. Blew mulitipule 25+ leads. Not to mention that horrid playoff performance. I see Griff putting much more pressure on WG to adapt to this century's NBA

[djrnno]

Potentially, though I think that would be a fairly extreme case.

Green picks favourites and once he likes you it doesn't really matter how poorly you play, you will get minutes. Nance is the perfect example of that. He's been a hit or miss player, unfortunately with his misses lasting a lot longer than his hits, but Green loves him so whenever he's healthy, he plays. Green will close games with him over JV regardless of the match-up. It's rough.

And generally speaking, I get the vibe that he likes players who remind him of himself when he played. Defense first, gritty, ''get after it'' types, who may or may not have offensive utility.

There are pros to that, for sure. We've put out an elite defense the last three years regardless of who has been on the team. We've had BI, Zion, and CJ all play bad defense at times across those three years, and the overall team defense has been solid anyway. We've started Jonas, who is not an elite defender, for multiple seasons and still put out good defenses. If Green can do anything, it's get a team to buy in defensively and pull their weight as a unit.

But if all you've got is offense and you can't provide the defense, you are in the doghouse instantly.

I guess a simple way of putting it is this:

If you have defense, but no offense, he will give you the benefit of the doubt and hope your offense comes along, even if it is having actively negative consequences.
If you have offense but no defense, he will bench you until he feels you're ready defensively, and then as soon as you make a mistake, you get benched again. No leeway.

It's rough, but it's what he does. Hopefully he changes his mind as he continues to get more experience as a head coach.

Edit: it's also why some people, including me, have started arguing that you just need to take his toys away. If he'll put out a decent enough defense regardless of who you give him, give him offensive players and make him figure it out.

I completely agree , Griff needs to do a Moneyball on WG and just trade away players so WG has to play the ones Griff wants. Save him from himself Griff

[RaisingTheBar]

Completely disagree, and nobody says you ''give every rookie you draft 30mpg''. That's an absurd mischaracterisation of the critique.

Green routinely has put out lineups containing no primary ballhandler and, in many cases, 4 non-shooters at a time in his career as Pelicans coach. That improved somewhat this year but only because Naji and Herb both suddenly became good shooters, not because Green actually did anything differently with his rotations or preferences.

If you want Green to play shooters you have to hope that either someone gets injured and he's forced into giving them minutes and they stick, or that defenders figure out how to shoot on their own. We've been quite lucky that Herb and Naji have done that, but Naji's about to walk and we just lost Vinson so good luck having it happen again. It was unlikely enough the first time.

It?s not absurd at all bc all I see on this site 10x a day is that Willie won?t play rookies or younger guys. Look at Trey?s minutes every year his career. Who got injured year 1 to year 2 for him that was the only reason he got significantly more playing time? If hawks stays at 17mpg this season you?d have a point. But I have a feeling it?s going to take a nice uptick and no one will remember this convo.

[Pelicanidae]

It?s not absurd at all bc all I see on this site 10x a day is that Willie won?t play rookies or younger guys.

I said it's an absurd mischaracterisation and it is. Nobody is angry that Willie isn't giving every rookie we draft 30mpg.

In any case, I can literally point to specific instances of Green turning to old, washed nobodies over young promising talent in key moments. Garrett Temple, who should have been retired played several hundred more minutes in Trey Murphy's rookie season than Trey did despite him being objectively worse in every tangible measure and having no future. The idea that this doesn't happen and everyone's just pretending Green picks favourites is what's absurd.

Or does he have to pull Tony Snell off the bench again to remind you?

[RaisingTheBar]

You’re ignoring the development peice. I’ll again point to Trey’s minutes, every year of his career. Trey has turned out well wouldn’t you agree? Maybe something was done right? No couldn’t be.

[Pelicanidae]

You’re ignoring the development peice. I’ll again point to Trey’s minutes, every year of his career. Trey has turned out well wouldn’t you agree? Maybe something was done right? No couldn’t be.

I would say that Trey has turned out well, sure. But I'm also curious how much further along he might be if he hadn't been forced to come off the bench for the first three years of his career, including behind people like Garrett Temple, when it was clear from his rookie season that he had something.

Look, I'm fairly willing to give credit to Willie Green for a lot of things. I have not been nearly as harsh on him as some other people have (there have been some people calling for his job since his first year here). But I'm not about to relitigate his issues with rotations and his weird tendency to pick favourites. Even people who generally like him tend to admit that he does that. If you can't see it, then I'm not fighting you about it anymore than I'd argue with someone the colour of the sky.

[RaisingTheBar]

I would say that Trey has turned out well, sure. But I'm also curious how much further along he might be if he hadn't been forced to come off the bench for the first three years of his career, including behind people like Garrett Temple, when it was clear from his rookie season that he had something.

Look, I'm fairly willing to give credit to Willie Green for a lot of things. I have not been nearly as harsh on him as some other people have (there have been some people calling for his job since his first year here). But I'm not about to relitigate his issues with rotations and his weird tendency to pick favourites. Even people who generally like him tend to admit that he does that. If you can't see it, then I'm not fighting you about it anymore than I'd argue with someone the colour of the sky.

First 3 years of his career? The last 2 seasons he’s started in 65% of the games he’s played in. Also, I’m one that thinks “starts” can be a bit overrated. Minutes is what matters and Trey has averaged 30mpg over the last 2 seasons compared to what 14-15 his rookie year. If BI is sent out Trey will have a bigger role and his minutes will be further increased. If it’s the rotations you hate, fine, bash who is played when and what situation? Fine. But fans can’t knock him for development of younger players when during his tenure we’ve arguably had the most success with our non #1 overall draft picks/undrafted free agents over any span for this org in a long time. And I’m not saying you do this, but we’ve reached a point with our fan base where anything negative is immediately attributed to Willie/Griff where all of the positives are attributed elsewhere or in spite of. And I’m not a big fan of either one.

[Pelicanidae]

First 3 years of his career? The last 2 seasons he’s started in 65% of the games he’s played in. Also, I’m one that thinks “starts” can be a bit overrated. Minutes is what matters and Trey has averaged 30mpg over the last 2 seasons compared to what 14-15 his rookie year. If BI is sent out Trey will have a bigger role and his minutes will be further increased. If it’s the rotations you hate, fine, bash who is played when and what situation? Fine. But fans can’t knock him for development of younger players when during his tenure we’ve arguably had the most success with our non #1 overall draft picks/undrafted free agents over any span for this org in a long time. And I’m not saying you do this, but we’ve reached a point with our fan base where anything negative is immediately attributed to Willie/Griff where all of the positives are attributed elsewhere or in spite of. And I’m not a big fan of either one.

First 3 years, yes, because his default position has been off the bench. Yes he's started when there's been injuries and we've had a lot of injuries, that does not change the fact that when the team is healthy he has been the odd man out.

You can say that you don't care about starts all you like, I promise you that the players do.

I'm sure that some people are overly critical about Willie and Griff. Frankly, there's a lot to be critical of. There are some things they've done well and I've consistently praised that (how many times have I said that Willie seems to be able to get good defense out of basically any lineup? How many times has it been said by me and others that he seems to get great player buy-in?) but they have done a lot of things poorly and they have lost games because of it, and squandered a ''war-chest'' because of it.

We lost every single game we entered this year in which we trailed going into the 4th. That's not just bad shooting luck, that's not just players shrinking from the moment every single time. Over two dozen distinct occurrences of it. That represents a systematic failure and while not all of that is Willie's fault, a good portion of it is. We've seen it over and over. His rotations are dodgy, he plays random unmotivated lineups that don't fit, he picks his favourites and then will play them regardless of context, and because he's a defense-first coach, he will forgive defensive players for making offensive mistakes but will bench offensive players for defensive mistakes. None of this is even contentious.

And don't get me started on Griff squandering the ''war-chest''. How many picks has he spent now just in the process of cleaning up his own mistakes?

[msusousaphone]

I'm with RaisingTheBar. I honestly thought the talk about 'Green and Griffin not being on the same page because Green isn't playing Hawkins as much' was typical forum hyperbole. Surprised to see it was actual thinking.

Good teams don't play rookies. They come in so young and are absolutely dreadful at switching, positioning, and overall D. Herb Jones is an anomaly so don't look at him as a good example. Like RTB, look at Trey. If Hawkins puts in the off-season work, and I bet he is, he'll be more up to NBA speed and will get more minutes this season. I expect Dyson to take a huge jump, too.

We tend to forget how young these players are coming out (except for Reeves lol). Guys....Brandon Ingram is just 26. In the NBA, the prime is considered 27 to 31. Dude hasn't even come close to peaking yet. And yes, most people on this forum (who are no longer here) did the same with Jrue. It's a tale as old as time. They expect draftees picked outside the lottery to get played year one and it's more likely for them to start getting meaningful minutes in year 3 to 5 and then they are ready to say a player is at their ceiling at age 24 to 26.

Despite all the pessimism and aside from the unfilled Jonas hole, this is a good team that would compete for top 3 or 4 in the West if we ran it back. Our FO and coaching staff underlings are moving up to better positions with other teams (which is a great sign), our FAs like Naji will probably leave to bigger and better contracts we can't afford to match (another good sign, our entire core outside of CJ and Nance are below the age of 27 and will keep improving as the years go on.....like when you start comparing our prospects to other teams in the league, we're in the upper echelon, fam.

I mean, how are we going to watch our assistants get promoted for lead positions in other franchises, see our backup rotational guys like Naji poised to get bigger and better roles, have most of our draft picks looking promising in a league where most draft picks flame out fast and half this board talks like we're perennial lottery drafters?

[msusousaphone]

I mean lawd.

We're hearing news that a bonafide All-Star has us on his short list of places he wants to be traded.

We have that happening and people are down on this team.

[Pelicanidae]

Despite all the pessimism and aside from the unfilled Jonas hole, this is a good team that would compete for top 3 or 4 in the West if we ran it back.

I just cannot understand this position. You keep saying it, but I think as long as this is your foundation, we're never going to agree on this topic.

''Ignoring the fact that we just lost one of our best and most impactful players for absolutely zilch (and also one of our most important bench pieces), I think this team that just made the play-in despite pretty good injury luck would compete for the top 3 if we changed nothing''.

Boggles the mind.

[JJackisangry]

I'm with RaisingTheBar. I honestly thought the talk about 'Green and Griffin not being on the same page because Green isn't playing Hawkins as much' was typical forum hyperbole. Surprised to see it was actual thinking.

Good teams don't play rookies. They come in so young and are absolutely dreadful at switching, positioning, and overall D. Herb Jones is an anomaly so don't look at him as a good example. Like RTB, look at Trey. If Hawkins puts in the off-season work, and I bet he is, he'll be more up to NBA speed and will get more minutes this season. I expect Dyson to take a huge jump, too.

We tend to forget how young these players are coming out (except for Reeves lol). Guys....Brandon Ingram is just 26. In the NBA, the prime is considered 27 to 31. Dude hasn't even come close to peaking yet. And yes, most people on this forum (who are no longer here) did the same with Jrue. It's a tale as old as time. They expect draftees picked outside the lottery to get played year one and it's more likely for them to start getting meaningful minutes in year 3 to 5 and then they are ready to say a player is at their ceiling at age 24 to 26.

Despite all the pessimism and aside from the unfilled Jonas hole, this is a good team that would compete for top 3 or 4 in the West if we ran it back. Our FO and coaching staff underlings are moving up to better positions with other teams (which is a great sign), our FAs like Naji will probably leave to bigger and better contracts we can't afford to match (another good sign, our entire core outside of CJ and Nance are below the age of 27 and will keep improving as the years go on.....like when you start comparing our prospects to other teams in the league, we're in the upper echelon, fam.

I mean, how are we going to watch our assistants get promoted for lead positions in other franchises, see our backup rotational guys like Naji poised to get bigger and better roles, have most of our draft picks looking promising in a league where most draft picks flame out fast and half this board talks like we're perennial lottery drafters?

You have taken things out of context again. I will be civil. I said he brought in a guy that doesn’t fit Willie’s preference of player. I questioned why he traded up to get a pick that Willie likely won’t favor. You don’t just build a team. The coach and the GM have to get the guys that fit the system. It is a fair question and you have absolutely gone off on a tangent here.

[JJackisangry]

Again, you could argue that Griffin has built a talented roster, but has he built a talented roster to fit the system that Willie wants to run? I think Griff corrected some of his mistakes with the help of Langdon and we were finally back in a good spot talent wise. BUT AGAIN- Griff hired Willie Green who doesn’t seem to favor the players Griff brings in. Jonas was a great example. He rectified it with Larry, but Larry took a massive nosedive and he still favored him over Jonas regardless of the situation. Instead of using the shooters at our disposal, he preferred to run with hard nosed defensive players that weren’t known for being shooters. Our offense stagnated frequently because of Willie’s lineups.

[JJackisangry]

I’m not saying Willie is a bad coach. Based on the evidence so far, I don’t think he was the right hire. That has more to do with Griff not being the most competent than anything. Willie didn’t hire himself and build the roster.

[stevemadden504]

Does EJ have a future with this team?

[Pelicanidae]

Does EJ have a future with this team?

Doubtful. Second rounders rarely get a look in on any team and after his injury cost him a whole year, I feel like any chance he had to break that trend kind of got shoved out of the window. Green's got used to not playing him and it's hard to break that pattern for any coach.

It's a shame, I was optimistic for him on draft night but is what it is. Doesn't work out for everyone.

[RaisingTheBar]

First 3 years, yes, because his default position has been off the bench. Yes he's started when there's been injuries and we've had a lot of injuries, that does not change the fact that when the team is healthy he has been the odd man out.

You can say that you don't care about starts all you like, I promise you that the players do.

These are the only points I’ll make. Trey has been “the odd man out” simply because of Herb/BI being on the roster. That is a good problem to have. And the reason Herb is starting is bc he can guard elite level offensive players that Trey can’t. That’s it. Trey isn’t not starting bc he’s not good or not developed or coaches have a vendetta against him. It’s bc he had BI and Herb in front of him. If BI is gone watch how many starts Trey gets.


Also I didn’t say that I didn’t care about starts but that they’re overrated. I bet you a player would rather come off the bench averaging 30+ mpg and play EOG than be a starter playing 24mpg not on the floor when it matters most. Ask Jonas.

[RaisingTheBar]

Does EJ have a future with this team?

I would be extremely surprised if he is on the roster after this season.

[PELICANSFAN]

I would be extremely surprised if he is on the roster after this season.

Agree. He may be a throw in for salary purposes in a trade, but that is likely the best option.

[fullcourtpress]

We have won more games each season under Coach Green. As long as this continues, I'm good with him. And despite wishing some players got more minutes I seldomly complain about it because we don't know everything that goes into a decision like that. trust me

[13 - 3]

We have won more games each season under Coach Green. As long as this continues, I'm good with him. And despite wishing some players got more minutes I seldomly complain about it because we don't know everything that goes into a decision like that. trust me

Now imagine how many more game Pelicans would have won and how deep in the playoffs if Willie were a smart coach.

[13 - 3]

James Wiseman is available

https://www.si.com/nba/pistons-james-wiseman-free-agent

[JJackisangry]

We have won more games each season under Coach Green. As long as this continues, I'm good with him. And despite wishing some players got more minutes I seldomly complain about it because we don't know everything that goes into a decision like that. trust me

In fairness, we really don’t know the relationship between let’s say Jonas and Green. All we can do is speculate. Maybe he has a valid reason behind the scenes- we don’t know. As for winning more games, well we have been healthier. That makes sense. He had an excuse in the first two years. In his third year he saw his team drop a massive amount of leads and blew quite a few games. He also had very peculiar lineups on the floor and didn’t really have a consistently functional offense. Maybe you can blame Griff for building the team the way he has, but I have no doubts a better or more seasoned coach would have gotten way more. Again, Green isn’t the finished product either.

[Pelicanidae]

Can confirm the Pelicans are picking up the team options on Jose Alvarado ($1.99m) and Jeremiah Robinson-Earl ($2.2m) for the 2024-25 season.

Alvarado becomes extension eligible on July 6.@cclark_13 first reported.

— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) June 28, 2024

[Pelicanidae]

Dallas has traded Tim Hardaway Jr. and three second-round picks to Detroit for Quentin Grimes, sources tell ESPN.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) June 28, 2024