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This was a game that if they don’t take something from it, no hope is the future. They have played two teams that can shoot and rebound and it cost them both of those games. Scolding should be done. Should not buddy buddy these grown as* men. They played soft and got worked. Time to make them man up. Especially the two big babies that don’t hustle.
19!!!!!Originally Posted by PaKwAn
Also, stop playing Larry Nance if he isn’t going to rebound. Jonas playing 21 minutes is appalling. This guy deserves better.
Last edited by Fedupfan; 11-04-2023 at 08:59 PM.
Also, it's been said before but I'll say it again - this starting 5 looks bad offensively in the halfcourt. Really bad. There's a dozen reasons for it, but frankly, this lineup of 5 does not work in the halfcourt.
Basketball.
And i agree that Zion at the 5 is a dumb idea. Yes he can occasionally get an advantage on the offensive end but he gets abused on the defensive end and can't grab a board to save his life.
Too many chefs in the kitchen. That is a simple fix and maybe we see it once Trey is back- maybe not. Zion in particular needs to be surrounded by shooters. Everyone and their mama is screaming at Green for that.
Your excuses for # 1 remind me of the postings McDonald's used to display on the marquees at all their restaurants:
"Over 38 Million Served"
JV can shoot a little but he's not a spacer.
BI can shoot threes, but doesn't.
Zion doesn't shoot threes.
Herb does shoot threes, but isn't very good at it.
One shooter in the starting lineup. CJ is the only guy. It's just not tenable.
Trey makes that better, but does he completely fix it? Not if there's a ton of stuff going on in the midrange still.
Early we tend to survive. Usually it takes a team til halftime to adjust to our offense. We need to be more versatile with our lineup once that happens. Green has been pretty mediocre in quite a few games in that regard. When he has a million weapons he doesn?t know what to do with them.
Green is mediocre. This team has a ton of talent and should never look this inept.
After watching LNJ's start to the season, I can fully understand why Billy H'Gomez picked up his marbles and went home.
Willie wouldn't play Billy, has a problem playing JV, and DNP - Coaches Decision's CZeller to death in favor of LNJ.
The thing is, the lessons are obvious. And we learned them already, last year. But I'll say it again, and I said it two games ago, and I said it in the summer.
Willie Green takes 25 games at the start of the year to re-learn the stuff he spent 25 games learning last year. It took him until mid-late November last year to realise that Zion shouldn't be posted up and that he should be spending more time on ball. It's going to take him until December to remember that he already learned it this year.
It may even take longer, because last year BI's injury forced his hand - BI isn't likely to get a serious injury again at the exact time point of the season, so maybe he'll just never have his hand forced this year. Which is bad.
The problem is that we brought in an offensive co-ordinator in Borrego to try and fix some of these issues but his stated philosophy runs contrary to the personal preferences of certain players on this team, and that is experiencing visible problems.
For me, just put two on ball players on the floor at a time. BI/Zion, JV/CJ, Zion/whoever etc. They are all very good. They can all run an offense. Surround them with spacers and offball players. Our offense should rarely stagnate. We should miss shots sure. It happens. But we stagnate way way too often. We can still follow Borregos philosophy either way, but Willie needs to help himself. Sometimes an embarrassment of riches is an embarrassment in the wrong hands.
One of the primary problems is that players do not want to do Borrego's philosophy - at least not all of them.
Also, while I agree that you should be able to do any pair of ballhandlers on the floor, I don't think that's actually practical.
Zion + JV only works if everyone else is shooting.
BI + JV the same
Zion + BI the same
You just can't play the shooters that many minutes. So you're basically beholden to bolting CJ to one of those three, and then the viable combinations change unless you want to be exclusively using them as trios, which becomes less flexible and much more easy to plan against from an opposing team's perspective.
I don't think anybody thought Zion would turn into Ben Simmons and refuse to shoot any 3s at all. He didn't play that way at Duke or his first few years in the league.
He's shot 1 three in five games now. He is simply not shooting anything outside of 2 feet.
Sure but even if he shot say, 2 a game, would it matter? Nobody is going to change how they defend Zion or start rushing out on him on the perimeter to defend that, even if he's shooting 38% on them. They'll live with him taking the occasional 3, that's a win for the defense. And I don't want him taking the volume that it would require for them to care, because frankly, shots at the rim are worth more and we don't have anyone else on the team better at driving and warping defenses.
I'd like to see him take them when he's open too, but as far as identifying the actual schematic problems with the team's offense, there are significantly larger fish to fry than Zion 3PAs imo
Lol. This team’s problem isn’t Zion not jacking up threes or taking more mid range shots. The problem with this team is that the pieces don’t compliment each other. After the first two games, our starters were dead last in the league in offense.
Zion’s main talent is being able to make difficult shots playing ISO ball. BI’s main talent is being able to make difficult shots playing ISO ball. Both like to catch the ball on the perimeter and then drive towards the basket. Zion likes to make take and make difficult layups. BI likes to make and take difficult midrange jumpers. Otherwise, they are the same player.
Neither player plays particularly well off the ball. Both tend to stand around while the other player does their thing. Both end up facing more congestion than they should because they don’t pose a threat while the other has the ball.
Now add a JV, Herb and or Dyson to the mix and you see why the lane gets really congested.
It’s one of the reasons why I suggested that this team would be better suited bringing Zion off the bench. (Even though realistically I know this would never happen). They should try to minimize Zion and BI being on the court together, but the team should have one of the two on the court at all times.
As for this game, it’s almost the exact same game as the Golden State game. We got clobbered because we couldn’t rebound their misses, they both had a point guard go unconscious against us (Herb is a very good defender against wings, but against guys like Trae or Steph not so much), and we gave up too many lobs and pick and rolls. The only way we can win games like that is to match our opponent in scoring, and the way our team is put together, does not maximize our offense.
If Zion is shooting 38% from 2 - 3 threes per game, that makes a difference and team will respect it. That's not small fish. Teams will not leave 5 feet of space like they are now and completely disregard that area of the court around him. Which also affects his teammates.
Jokic does just enough to make teams pay when they leave him open behind that line and it makes a difference. There is no reason Zion can't do the same.
He does one thing very, very good; maybe like no other in today's game. But that one thing isn't worth a max contract that hamstrings his team for the next five years. I might look the other way if he 'attempted' to play defense or even contributed 'minimally' as a PF with regards to defensive rebounding. But, alas, neither seems to interest him. How this team (or any team) could think that # 1 could be the cornerstone for a perennial winner is absurd if not outright stupidity.
This coddled, self-aggrandizing man-child (mostly child) needs to grow up quickly because right now he is teetering on the 'Bust Line'.
BI and Zion resemble each other almost zero as a player. Generalising it as ''they both like to take shots in different areas but are otherwise the same'' is relentless oversimplification.
If teams have zero respect for Zion outside of 5 ft, there's not much anyone else can do when he has the ball away from the basket. There's no space to cut.
BI attracts 2. If they don't-- he makes them pay. He's shooting 53% from the field so far, which is higher than Zion oddly enough. You do WANT that on the floor with Zion to take pressure off him. You especially want it right next to Zion and make teams choose. That part of the offense is not being utilized to its fullest. The few times they've worked a 2 man game on the same side of the floor, it's worked. Everybody was talking about it game 1 against Memphis. Haven't seen it much since then because BI had to take his customary in season vacation. So I think people just need to give it time.
Having dynamic players on the floor at the same time will never be a problem for any team and it's not the Pelicans problem now. That will always be more effective than relying on Zion barreling into the lane to find 3 pt catch and shoot targets. Because shot making like that comes and goes. It's one reason even during that December run they could not win a road game.
Meanwhile
Zion absolutely needs to expand his offensive game and take wide open 3s.
Agree to disagree. Volume is often far more important than percentage in terms of impacting a defensive scheme. If Zion took 2 threes a game, every game, and shot even 50% on them, he would garner less defensive attention than someone taking 5 of them and shooting 35%. Even Jokic usually shoots significantly more than 2 a game. And I believe it wouldn't help the rest of the team as much as him driving would, because when he drives he takes 3 or 4 defenders with him, guys get open, and he passes. You end up then with guys like Hawkins or Trey Murphy shooting with 8 feet of space. If Zion just stays at home and throws up his one make a game, everyone stays home.
I'd like to say that I cannot believe that the takeaway from tonight is ''Zion's offense needs work'', but given some of the stuff I see on this board and elsewhere, I actually can't be surprised.
That's probability because most watch the game without a pre-ordained agenda. Try it you might like it.
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