BI or Zion: Who do you want the Pelicans to trade for Scoot?

[Algiersraised]

Well he’s by his self for the most part did you see the mavs last year luka is a mvp candidate hasn’t done squat by himself

[Pelicanidae]

Trade Zion before BI. He is the closest thing we have to a generational player, but there are so many negatives. His availability is obviously the biggest concern. The whole thing about him not playing during the most important moments last year despite being healthy is the opposite of the mamba mentality that you want in your team leader. Plus his off the court distractions, plus he is our biggest contract and will likely prevent us from having the room to resign Trey and Herb. That being said I am still not convinced about moving on from him because he is that much of a difference maker if everything works out for the best.

The bolded section is the only bit I take quarrel with here.

If you want to trade Zion because of health, that's a legitimate thing - he's been injured every single year he's played. It's a real problem, nobody can deny that.

If you want to trade him because of ''off court distractions'', that's absurd. His ''off court distractions'' have been stuff that nearly every NBA player does. As mentioned in the past, Paul George knocked up a stripper while he was in a relationship to a coaches daughter and nobody cared. Trading Zion for having consensual sex with grown adults is insane.

Plus, the stuff about Zion being the biggest contract - one of the biggest arguments in favour of trading Ingram is his GIANT incoming contract under the new CBA, a deal which may well be larger than Zion's all things included, and which will kick in alongside Trey and Herb, making the impact even larger.

If you're trading Zion, you're doing it on health, as far as I'm concerned that's the best argument for it. His contract situation is better than Ingram's, his ''off court distractions'' are run of the mill NBA player stuff, and his on-court performance is on another tier to Ingram.

Edit: actually correction, I also take quarrel with ''mamba mentality'', one of the biggest pieces of hogwash NBA mythmaking in my lifetime.

[luckyman]

I regret to inform you that other teams already ''whip us all day long'' with Ingram on the team. Have been doing for the last 4 years.

This team, which has been quite rag tag at moments, still somehow has a winning record when Ingram plays no matter who else is injured.

So no, they haven't "whipped us all day" when he's on the court by any metric.

[Pelicanidae]

If you have to go and clarify what a person meant, then it's safe to say you didn't really know.

They typed what they meant the first time.

And saying all you'd lose in that scenario is BI's playmaking is not surprising.

You downplaying BI's total skillset has been consistent these last 3/4 years I'll give you that. It at least isn't at the levels of absurdity it was before. so there's been some improvement.

It's true what when BI was first proposed as coming here, I was against it because I was thoroughly unimpressed by his time in LA and I was sceptical of how much he would improve.

I've since admitted that I was wrong a thousand times - BI has far exceeded my expectations and has grown from someone I thought of as replacement level, to someone who I consider a top 40 player in the league.

That's because I changed my mind when I was confronted with new information.

Unfortunately, given that you seem to still be arguing with my opinions from 2018-19, I'm not sure that you're able to make the same adjustment.

[Darkhorse985]

Brandon is a better passer and you will have to pay players regardless why not pay a top guy who wants to be apart of something you building

Doesn?t change the fact that he is injury prone and due for a super max in 2 years. We are a small market team. Money ball factors into the equation. Personally, I don?t think BI will ever be a top 10 player in this league and is a lower tier all star caliber player which is his ceiling.

[Pelicanidae]

This team, which has been quite rag tag at moments, still somehow has a winning record when Ingram plays no matter who else is injured.

So no, they haven't "whipped us all day" when he's on the court by any metric.

The team actually doesn't have a winning record when Ingram plays regardless of who else is injured.

This team has a record of 60-70 in games played with Ingram but without Zion. That is to say, a losing record.

[Darkhorse985]

This is a guard driven league. Having 2 injury prone forwards lead the team will continue to yield mediocre results. See LA Clippers.

[Algiersraised]

Zion is like the prettiest girl you ever had but she don’t even like you like that she just want the money and thangs that come with being with you
Brandon is that solid 8 that holds down the house through all the bs

Only a fool chooses to get rid of the latter for the first

Jimmy butler should show you that you just need hood coaching with players who wanna win and be apart of something bigger than thyself to be a champ and jokic just got amazing ain’t like he been that way Brandon is just 25

[Algiersraised]

Neither will Zion if he can’t play more than 40 games logging 35 minutes

[Fedupfan]

This team, which has been quite rag tag at moments, still has a winning record when Ingram plays.

So no, they haven't "whipped us all day" when he's on the court by any metric.

The truth is that both of them are great players. Zion can single handedly win a game on most nights. BI can win a game here and there but his impact is not nearly as felt as Zion?s. The issue is how the Pelicans feel Scoot would fit better with either player and in my opinion, it?s probably a hugely tough decision. Both players have equal reasons why they fit better next to scoot. With Zion, the way that scoot attacks, the rim will be an open buffet all day in the PNR. With BI, it gives them another all around scoring threat that can handle the ball and close games. The real difference is how they plan to design the offense under Borrego and who they think fits that role more. If I had to guess it would be BI that fits better in a Borrego system. I?m actually nervous that the Pels would try their hardest to keep both of them and get rid of someone else like Herb. Then that starts a whole different scenario where the Pels have to decide how much they value Dyson as that perimeter lock down.

[luckyman]

The team actually doesn't have a winning record when Ingram plays regardless of who else is injured.

This team has a record of 60-70 in games played with Ingram but without Zion. That is to say, a losing record.

I'm talking the last 2 years when Ingram has basically taken over as face of the franchise, no Jrue, roster overhauls, rookies all over the starting lineup, and Zion in street clothes basically the entire time.

That is to say, a winning record and a playoff appearance despite ALL of that.


If you can find a way to downplay that one, it will truly be remarkable and your best yet.

Go.

[Freyfamilyreuni]

I’m worried about Zion’s long term viability in the league. His size/speed/acceleration/vertical may be contributing to his constant injury issues. I’m not sure the human body is meant to do the things he’s doing. I’m also not sure that you can trust him to rehabilitate responsibly.

It sucks because when he does play he’s one of the most super-efficient offensively players the game has ever seen. It also looked like he was starting to make strides on the defensive side of the ball.

I like Ingram’s game, I just don’t always love it. I don’t think his style of play is always as efficient as it needs to be. But, I think he’s probably going to have a long productive NBA career and will be a borderline all-star for quite a while.

If one of them has to be traded, I think trading Zion is probably the safer route.

From what I’ve heard, Charlotte would want more additional assets than just BI in a trade. And it seems that they may be valuing Zion higher, because supposedly they would be willing to take Zion by himself for the second.

Personally, I think Charlotte needs to give up more than just the 2nd pick for either BI or Zion. If they’re willing to give up more for Zion than BI, then I think that makes Zion my choice for the trade.

[Fedupfan]

This is a guard driven league. Having 2 injury prone forwards lead the team will continue to yield mediocre results. See LA Clippers.

Facts! You have to have a PG, without a PG, it doesn’t matter who the forwards are.

[Darkhorse985]

The truth is that both of them are great players. Zion can single handedly win a game on most nights. BI can win a game here and there but his impact is not nearly as felt as Zion?s. The issue is how the Pelicans feel Scoot would fit better with either player and in my opinion, it?s probably a hugely tough decision. Both players have equal reasons why they fit better next to scoot. With Zion, the way that scoot attacks, the rim will be an open buffet all day in the PNR. With BI, it gives them another all around scoring threat that can handle the ball and close games. The real difference is how they plan to design the offense under Borrego and who they think fits that role more. If I had to guess it would be BI that fits better in a Borrego system. I?m actually nervous that the Pels would try their hardest to keep both of them and get rid of someone else like Herb. Then that starts a whole different scenario where the Pels have to decide how much they value Dyson as that perimeter lock down.

I’d trade Dyson and Herb all day for Scoot. That’s not even a question. Dyson is fools gold imo. Raw, inconsistent offense, and not on the timeline of this current team.

[Algiersraised]

Still was close to taking the suns out and Brandon has been healthier than both Paul and Kawhi for the most part

[Darkhorse985]

Facts! You have to have a PG, without a PG, it doesn’t matter who the forwards are.

Look at Jokic without Murray. He essentially becomes a stat stuffer on a 2nd round of playoffs team at best.

[luckyman]

The truth is that both of them are great players. Zion can single handedly win a game on most nights. BI can win a game here and there but his impact is not nearly as felt as Zion?s. The issue is how the Pelicans feel Scoot would fit better with either player and in my opinion, it?s probably a hugely tough decision. Both players have equal reasons why they fit better next to scoot. With Zion, the way that scoot attacks, the rim will be an open buffet all day in the PNR. With BI, it gives them another all around scoring threat that can handle the ball and close games. The real difference is how they plan to design the offense under Borrego and who they think fits that role more. If I had to guess it would be BI that fits better in a Borrego system. I?m actually nervous that the Pels would try their hardest to keep both of them and get rid of someone else like Herb. Then that starts a whole different scenario where the Pels have to decide how much they value Dyson as that perimeter lock down.

Zion can single handedly win a game on most nights? When did that actually happen?

That simply has not even been close to true. Especially when they play on the road and especially against teams with active length.

I like Zion. I don't want either of them traded.

But it seems Zion is still living off of legend and fantasy while people continue to downplay what BI has actually done on the court, under any and many circumstances.

[Pelicanidae]

I'm talking the last 2 years when Ingram has basically taken over as face of the franchise, no Jrue, roster overhauls, rookies all over the starting lineup, and Zion in street clothes basically the entire time.

That is to say, a winning record and a playoff appearance despite ALL of that.


If you can find a way to downplay that one, it will truly be remarkable and your best yet.

Go.

You made a claim that was pretty general. I showed you were wrong, so you've moved the goalposts. Yes, if you define yourself into a very small corner, you can be 100% correct within the confines of your own small box.

The point is, if you think the BI > Zion argument is so open and shut, why do you keep having to make stuff up to prove it?

Yesterday it was BI is attacking the rim more and taking fewer middies - something that's completely incorrect. Today, it's that we have a winning record when he plays regardless of who else is on the team - also incorrect. So you move the goalposts; ironically enough, in the same thread you complained about someone else being unclear about their own points regarding Ingram.

[Pelicanidae]

I’m worried about Zion’s long term viability in the league. His size/speed/acceleration/vertical may be contributing to his constant injury issues. I’m not sure the human body is meant to do the things he’s doing. I’m also not sure that you can trust him to rehabilitate responsibly.

It sucks because when he does play he’s one of the most super-efficient offensively players the game has ever seen. It also looked like he was starting to make strides on the defensive side of the ball.

I like Ingram’s game, I just don’t always love it. I don’t think his style of play is always as efficient as it needs to be. But, I think he’s probably going to have a long productive NBA career and will be a borderline all-star for quite a while.

If one of them has to be traded, I think trading Zion is probably the safer route.

From what I’ve heard, Charlotte would want more additional assets than just BI in a trade. And it seems that they may be valuing Zion higher, because supposedly they would be willing to take Zion by himself for the second.

Personally, I think Charlotte needs to give up more than just the 2nd pick for either BI or Zion. If they’re willing to give up more for Zion than BI, then I think that makes Zion my choice for the trade.

Hey look, a reasonable argument for trading Zion over BI that doesn't require you to talk about ''distractions'' or ''mamba mentality'' or ''culture'' or anything like that.

It can be done!

[Algiersraised]

You have to corner Zion just for him to talk he has not made it clear he’s dedicated and as a number one pick that’s sad no argument for that

He hasn’t shown he’s team first it seems he cares more about the image of being a good guy

[Algiersraised]

One shows he’s still dedicated to basketball

[As I See It]

Zion can single handedly win a game on most nights? When did that actually happen?

That simply has not even been close to true. Especially when they play on the road and especially against teams with active length.

I like Zion. I don't want either of them traded.

But it seems Zion is still living off of legend and fantasy while people continue to downplay what BI has actually done on the court, under any and many circumstances.

Lucky, totally agree!!

He was pre-ordained as a generational player and has proven to be anything but, to date. How his minions still drink the Kool-Aid is exceedingly disheartening. Never mind that he has played in only 37% of his team's games, in four years, he has yet to step on a playoff court (except as a spectator). Is it totally his fault? No!!! But, does he share in the blame?

ABSOLUTELY!!!

[Darkhorse985]

Zion’s stats when he plays are exceptional. He also won’t be a super max player for 5 YEARS! Zion is maddeningly immature and injury prone sure, but I have already stated why you keep him for at least another year. BI is also injury prone.

[Algiersraised]

How often has he played

[luckyman]

You made a claim that was pretty general. I showed you were wrong, so you've moved the goalposts. Yes, if you define yourself into a very small corner, you can be 100% correct within the confines of your own small box.

The point is, if you think the BI > Zion argument is so open and shut, why do you keep having to make stuff up to prove it?

Yesterday it was BI is attacking the rim more and taking fewer middies - something that's completely incorrect. Today, it's that we have a winning record when he plays regardless of who else is on the team - also incorrect. So you move the goalposts; ironically enough, in the same thread you complained about someone else being unclear about their own points regarding Ingram.

No goal posts moved. When it's obvious for your argument, it's "I feel people are taking your posts too literally...what I think you mean is"

But when it doesn't, it's goal post moving.

I posted BI's record on this same site yesterday. That's what I meant again today. And it's true.

As for the middies, I posted the stats to prove it was not incorrect yesterday. You are the one playing with the stats minimizing mid range into "short mid range" as if I didn't see that BS the first time. But that's what you do besides hide behind these black box stats you know most people will never look up. Much less understand.

I'll post all the numbers for you again direct from nba.com. Maybe that'll help.

2021
Total shots - 1,012
Midrange - 408
Midrange shot % - 40%
Restricted area - 169
RA % - 17%
< 5 ft - 197
< 5 ft % - 19%

2022
Total shots - 850
Midrange - 299
Midrange shot % - 35%
RA - 154
RA % - 18%
< 5ft - 174
< 5ft % - 21%

So last year, he attacked the rim more as I said.
So last year, he shot fewer mid range shots, as I said.

Wtf do you mean that "completely incorrect"? I dunno. It's all there on a non-paywall site anybody can go look up.