April 19th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Phoenix Suns - Playoff Game 2 - 0-1

[Pelicanidae]

What Tatum has athletically, I think BI has him with vision, just.

Tatum isn't quite the playmaker, but it's close

BI is a better passer, and when he's having his best games, I think he controls pace better as well.

Tatum is by far the superior 3pt shooter (higher percentage, higher volume, higher percentage of self created three, for several years in a row now) and the better defender by a fairly significant margin as well (For comparison, BI DEPM this year was +0.4, 72nd percentile, by far a career high: Tatum's was +1.4, 88th percentile).

Overall I think Tatum is a better player but it's not by a huge amount. Both top 50 players, no doubt about it in my mind.

Edit: put Tatum's overall EPM instead of just his D-EPM, fixed that. Point still stands.

[Pelicanidae]

Best player implies you are looking for the current best guy. Which yes, is Ingram. Most dominant player when everyone is healthy? Zion. Highest ceiling of any current Pelican? Zion. Whose recent peak has been the highest of all on the current roster? Zion. Best current player? Ingram.

And I bet most would agree. The issue is language, not a fundamental disagreement

Yeah I agree.

Best player who has taken the floor for the Pelicans this season? Ingram.

Best player currently signed to a contract with the New Orleans Pelicans? Zion.

That's no insult to Ingram and I don't get why people are taking it that way. Zion was a top 20, borderline top 15 player last season: being not quite as good as him is hardly some grave issue.

[AusPel]

BI is a better passer, and when he's having his best games, I think he controls pace better as well.

Tatum is by far the superior 3pt shooter (higher percentage, higher volume, higher percentage of self created three, for several years in a row now) and the better defender by a fairly significant margin as well (For comparison, BI DEPM this year was +0.4, 72nd percentile, by far a career high: Tatum's was +5.8, 98th percentile).

Overall I think Tatum is a better player but it's not by a huge amount. Both top 50 players, no doubt about it in my mind.

I'll set Tatum top 15 and BI 25

And that's probably too high for BI

[Pelicanidae]

I'll set Tatum top 15 and BI 25

I'd probably have them both in that 20-30 range with Tatum at the top end and BI at the bottom. I'd have to actually sit down and manually sort all the players in the NBA to get serious numbers, of course, but yeah not too far in disagreement.

[AusPel]

Here's RealGMs top 25 from the start of the season:

RealGM Top 25 Players 2021-22:
1) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 41%
2) Kevin Durant (BKN) - 38%
3) LeBron James (LAL) - 36%
4) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 39%
5) Stephen Curry (GSW) - 42%
6) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 61%
7) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 32%
8) James Harden (BKN) - 47%
9) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 35%
10) Damian Lillard (POR) - 39%
11) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 60%
12) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 32%
13) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 34%
14) Paul George (LAC) - 33%
15) Trae Young (ATL) - 30%
16) Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 22%
17) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 27%
18) Chris Paul (PHX) - 26%
19) Kyrie Irving (BKN) - 29%
20) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 24%
21) Devin Booker (PHX) - 28%
22) Bradley Beal (WAS) - 35%
23) Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 47%
24) Khris Middleton (MIL) - 45%

And Jrue was 25th

No Morant was obviously the biggest oversight

[MichaelMcNamara]

I'd probably have them both in that 20-30 range with Tatum at the top end and BI at the bottom. I'd have to actually sit down and manually sort all the players in the NBA to get serious numbers, of course, but yeah not too far in disagreement.

20-30??? Are we talking body of work or currently? Because Tatum is top 10 currently. Just a debate if he is 7, 8, 9, or 10 IMO. But there is no debate that he is top 10

[Pelicanidae]

Here's RealGMs top 25

RealGM Top 25 Players 2021-22:
1) Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) - 41%
2) Kevin Durant (BKN) - 38%
3) LeBron James (LAL) - 36%
4) Luka Doncic (DAL) - 39%
5) Stephen Curry (GSW) - 42%
6) Nikola Jokic (DEN) - 61%
7) Joel Embiid (PHI) - 32%
8) James Harden (BKN) - 47%
9) Kawhi Leonard (LAC) - 35%
10) Damian Lillard (POR) - 39%
11) Anthony Davis (LAL) - 60%
12) Jayson Tatum (BOS) - 32%
13) Jimmy Butler (MIA) - 34%
14) Paul George (LAC) - 33%
15) Trae Young (ATL) - 30%
16) Rudy Gobert (UTA) - 22%
17) Zion Williamson (NOP) - 27%
18) Chris Paul (PHX) - 26%
19) Kyrie Irving (BKN) - 29%
20) Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) - 24%
21) Devin Booker (PHX) - 28%
22) Bradley Beal (WAS) - 35%
23) Donovan Mitchell (UTA) - 47%
24) Khris Middleton (MIL) - 45%

And Jrue was 25th

I have some disagreement with this but for the most part it's fine. I agree Jrue is still a top 30 player, as well. He was excellent for us and has arguably gotten even better in Milwaukee where he's had a lot more support - and for some reason he's relearned how to shoot threes.

This also implies that Ingram is probably somewhere in that 26-35 range, which I would also agree with.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Current Top 10 (And for me, its.... One game, life on the line. I know a lot of people have different qualifications. But this is my draft board in that specific scenario)

1. Durant
2. Giannis
3. Embiid
4. Jokic
5. Lebron
6. Luka
7. Steph
8. Tatum
9. Kyrie
10. CP3

[Pelicanidae]

20-30??? Are we talking body of work or currently? Because Tatum is top 10 currently. Just a debate if he is 7, 8, 9, or 10 IMO. But there is no debate that he is top 10

Like I said, I've have to sit down and actually work it out but just off the top of my head I'd have him below Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Lebron, CP3, Butler, Luka, PG13, and Harden. Then, when he's healthy, Kawhi is very probably better also. So that's 11 guys I can just name spontaneously that I think have convincing arguments for being better/more impactful than Tatum. I'd have to watch a bit more Celtics and look at some more info to make a firm decision so I could absolutely be wrong - maybe he's more like 15th instead of 20th, for example, but I'd struggle to put him over those names, so I don't really think I could go as high as 10th.

[AusPel]

I'm also a fan of re-ranking guys with respect to playoff performances, which is where the real money lies

[Freyfamilyreuni]

The frustrating thing with BI is if he just played like this all the time, there would be no debate. And I dont mean making shots. I mean playing with pace and just making a decision and going. Bad BI is the guy who holds the ball, takes 8 seconds to decide and then slowly dribbles into a contested mid range. This BI just goes, and that BI is a 3rd team All NBA forward with a ceiling of top 8-10 player within 2 years

I agree to a point. I do wonder how much of this has to do with BI not trusting his teamates to get him the ball in one of his favored spots. So he has to make himself available to get the ball, then dribble to the spot he wants to take his shot. Or part of it may be that he just gets pushed out of his spot before he can get the ball.

The knock on him has always been to get physical with him and push him around. That was true at the beginning of this season as well. Players took a lot of liberties with BI and he wore down in the second half of the season.

But I do think that's changing to an extent. It may be that he's getting stronger and holding his position better, or that his team is doing a better job at getting him the ball where he wants it. Whatever the reason, we're not seeing the fourth quarter let downs that BI was giving us in the past. And we're not seeing him dribble the air out of the ball as much.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Like I said, I've have to sit down and actually work it out but just off the top of my head I'd have him below Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Lebron, CP3, Butler, Luka, PG13, and Harden. Then, when he's healthy, Kawhi is very probably better also. So that's 11 guys I can just name spontaneously that I think have convincing arguments for being better/more impactful than Tatum. I'd have to watch a bit more Celtics and look at some more info to make a firm decision so I could absolutely be wrong - maybe he's more like 15th instead of 20th, for example, but I'd struggle to put him over those names, so I don't really think I could go as high as 10th.

You must have taken a long hiatus and stopped watching basketball for a while. Tatum below Harden? Like, currently? Or, again, are we talking body of work? Because I dont think one person outside of the Harden blood line would agree with you on that take. But again, I know you have been busy and might just not have been watching for a while.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Tatum is gonna be 5th or 6th in MVP voting this year. Either first team All NBA or very first guy on the 2nd team.

Below Harden? I'm dizzy.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I think that when you think about the next face of the league, like the guys who take the thrown once KD, Lebron, Kawhi, etc are finally gone. It's Giannis, Luka, and I think Tatum all on that same tier.

Then you got Ja and Trae, guys like that, a clear tier below. Ingram can get up to that Ja tier. He can't get to the tier above that IMO. And I dont think thats an insult. I think, even a few months ago, it was far to compare Ingram and Jaylen Brown. Ingram was more on that level. Not fair now. Ingram above him, but not on that Tatum level

[Taker597]

You must have taken a long hiatus and stopped watching basketball for a while. Tatum below Harden? Like, currently? Or, again, are we talking body of work? Because I dont think one person outside of the Harden blood line would agree with you on that take. But again, I know you have been busy and might just not have been watching for a while.

Yeah... Harden athleticism has declined this year and he has stop to mailing it in for FTs and improve his shooting.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I think you can make a case Harden isnt even top 20. Current Harden. I would probably put him 16 or 17. But I think a case could be made. He looks freaking awful

[Fedupfan]

https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/2...cousin_in.html

It’s crazy how much Monty and Willie have in common. Was thinking about Monty’s time here and remember when this happened. So happy that both of these guys have found success.

[Pelicanidae]

You must have taken a long hiatus and stopped watching basketball for a while. Tatum below Harden? Like, currently? Or, again, are we talking body of work? Because I dont think one person outside of the Harden blood line would agree with you on that take. But again, I know you have been busy and might just not have been watching for a while.

I've watched some stuff, of course, but yeah not nearly as much this year as in the last 5 for example. That's partly why I'm hedging so much - I could be wrong! Maybe I only caught the good Harden games, it's very possible that he's been generally terrible.

[Freyfamilyreuni]

Yeah I agree.

Best player who has taken the floor for the Pelicans this season? Ingram.

Best player currently signed to a contract with the New Orleans Pelicans? Zion.

That's no insult to Ingram and I don't get why people are taking it that way. Zion was a top 20, borderline top 15 player last season: being not quite as good as him is hardly some grave issue.

Here's the key question. Do you think Ingram and Zion can successfully co-exist? If the answer is yes, the whole debate is kind of pointless. If the answer is no, who do you want to keep and who do you want to trade?

If you asked me a year ago, I would have said Zion without question. But his off season and fairly selfish behavior during this season coupled with BI's continued growth has changed my mind. Couple that with my growing skepticism that Zion is capable of staying healthy, and I think you roll with BI no question.

[Taker597]

I've watched some stuff, of course, but yeah not nearly as much this year as in the last 5 for example. That's partly why I'm hedging so much - I could be wrong! Maybe I only caught the good Harden games, it's very possible that he's been generally terrible.

I wouldn't say he's terrible. He having a down year to the point you questioned maybe CJ would of been the better trade option. Harden athleticism is kind of sad tho.

His shooting is pretty inefficient this year. Right now... He's like a 20ppg prime Rondo facilitator and some solid rebounding.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Here's the key question. Do you think Ingram and Zion can successfully co-exist? If the answer is yes, the whole debate is kind of pointless. If the answer is no, who do you want to keep and who do you want to trade?

If you asked me a year ago, I would have said Zion without question. But his off season and fairly selfish behavior during this season coupled with BI's continued growth has changed my mind. Couple that with my growing skepticism that Zion is capable of staying healthy, and I think you roll with BI no question.

You gotta be more specific with the question. Define "co-exist" and then do you mean co-exist (because that is a low bar. All they literally have to do is not kill each other for the answer to be yes). I would bet the real question is: Can they elevate and maximize each other? Or, at the very least, could they play with one another and not minimize each other. But co-exist is way too broad and undefined. What is the EXACT question and/or bar that is acceptable where anything below that bar means you MUST trade them.

[Freyfamilyreuni]

You gotta be more specific with the question. Define "co-exist" and then do you mean co-exist (because that is a low bar. All they literally have to do is not kill each other for the answer to be yes). I would bet the real question is: Can they elevate and maximize each other? Or, at the very least, could they play with one another and not minimize each other. But co-exist is way too broad and undefined. What is the EXACT question and/or bar that is acceptable where anything below that bar means you MUST trade them.

When they are on the court together do they complement each other's game and make the other more offensively effecient and/or do they make the team more defensively effecient, or is the opposite true?

[Taker597]

[msusousaphone]

They do Coach of the Year voting WAY too early.

[Nichols]

Best player implies you are looking for the current best guy. Which yes, is Ingram. Most dominant player when everyone is healthy? Zion. Highest ceiling of any current Pelican? Zion. Whose recent peak has been the highest of all on the current roster? Zion. Best current player? Ingram.

And I bet most would agree. The issue is language, not a fundamental disagreement

Smart take.. spot on.