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Maybe we just have a different definition "a bit".Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
But Lonzo isn't an elite defender, even though he has the potential to be. I just don't think at this point he'll ever get anywhere close to his potential. He's already 24 in 2 months. Most NBA players reach pretty much their full potential by that age.
And since signing his big contract, Hield hasn't been an elite 3 point shooter... just above average. The drop off from those two isn't Curry to Westbrook.
Hart's not here at present and may not be. Naji is more suited to play the 3 (wing). In two consecutive years, Zion has missed significant time due to injury. If you think Jones is better than Markkanen right now, I guess you are satisfied with our depth.
Projecting out beyond next season, Val could be gone and who knows what the temperamental Zion clan noise might bring.
I think people too often think of guys as basketball players and not human beings. If this was NBA 2K, sure you just bring in all the talent you can and hope it works out. In reality, these are men with egos and paychecks. Paychecks that are known by the other guys on the team. This creates all kinds of issues that would take me pages to lay out in explicit detail. But its not just a skill acquisition game - at least not at the middle of the roster. If it is a top, top talent, you grab it and dont worry as much about fit and egos and development, etc. But not for the mid tier. Those guys come and go and you want to get the ones who put ego aside. Are happy to start if needed or get a DNP if the night calls for it. Not a guy who already feels wronged by his past team and now wants to get paid for what his production should have been. You think he is going to be happy just playing a role? No. But Naji will. Herbert Jones will run through any wall you ask him.
NBA2K - give me Lauri. Real life? Nah.
@mcnamara247
In the past two consecutive seasons, since signing that contract, Hield has authored two of the 12 highest volume 3pt seasons of all time and has shot 39% or better in both of them. Only two players have at least 3 seasons with over 270 threes made on at least 39% from deep: One of them is Buddy, and two of those 3 seasons for him are the last two seasons. The other guy is Steph, who has 6 such seasons. Nobody else.
The idea that he hasn't been an elite shooter over those two years is, frankly, absurd. Other aspects of his game have suffered, sure, he's not shown as much effort on defense (he's never been good but he was about league average a few years back and now he's awful) and he's gotten to the rim less frequently, but his shooting has never been anything but historically stellar. The last few years included.
Basketball.
Did Rich Paul find yet another way to screw us by leaking the Lonzo deal right at 6? Because it's a S&T, seems there's no way only Bulls get dinged.
Last edited by b_l_p; 08-08-2021 at 09:29 PM.
I think you are right....
"we might make dollars, but we don't necessarily make sense"
"always be sincere....whether you mean it or not"
Contributor
"Herbert Jones will run through any wall you ask him."
Thanks for that Mac, now I can't wait to see this kid play.
It's that the Hornets unashamedly quit so quickly in Game 4 after fans in New Orleans showed up this season with greater regularity than the team could have ever dreamed, shaming misinformed know-it-alls like me who kept telling you that local residents couldn't possibly invest their time and money into something as trivial as rooting for the local basketball team while still recovering from the devastation of Hurricane Katrina. - Mark Stien ESPN
I can buy this mindset if we were a 5th to 8th seed team looking to fill out mid level talent to take us to that next step. I don't buy this mindset when we are a team who missed the playoffs with two young stars and are desperately searching to find all spots aside from those two stars. We're thinking JV is a lock at C. Otherwise every other spot on this roster is up for grabs.
Last edited by msusousaphone; 08-08-2021 at 10:10 PM.
BI, Zion, and CJ had a net rating of +3 when on the court together. BI and Zion had a +13.4, BI and CJ had a +13.2, Zion and CJ was just +5.4.
BI and Zion worked. BI and CJ worked. It was CJ and Zion and all three together that didn't work.
Contributor
and the whole potential Bulls trade, no mention of Satoransky either.
Thats fine, but this is the exact type of short term thinking people killed Demps for. Go get a marginal upgrade and sacrifice youth (be it picks or developmental resources) to maybe crack the back half of the playoffs.
I didnt agree with it then and I wont agree with it now. Not for Lauri Markannen. Wanna trade 2 firsts to go get a young Jrue? Sure. But give Lauri 15-20 mil and minutes/shots other guys can be taking? I just wont do it
I just do not think Markkanen would take significant time away from our young guys. Our backup 4 right now is Gabriel. Obviously he will not get much, if any run other than mop up duty. So that means we may see BI and Hayes at the 4 on occasion based on the lineup. Naji is not a 4, but I guess could guard one depending on the matchup. Kira, NAW, Didi are not 4s. The odds of Jones getting a lot of run are minimal at best. This team is very thin at the 4 as JV, Willy and Hayes are primarily 5s. Also, Lauri is young as well, so could have some value. It is not like we are too talented to add a young stretch 4 if the price is right and we do not have to give up significant assets (i.e. only 2nds).
I agree with what you are saying. But who do we have playing the 4 behind Zion, and who do we have that provides real space while playing 5?
I don’t want to bring someone in who will not embrace the role. But that’s a big role and he doesn’t have many options right now. Its an important role for Zion’s growth and stability and we have no one on the team for it at the moment. I don’t see how a 2yr 25-30mill contract for the 1st big off the bench is a bad idea. I think it would be a tradable contract so long as a 3rd year isn’t guaranteed or PO.
You would have to weigh this against saving the trade exception for the deadline. Who can we realistically acquire in that 17 mil slot. If it turned out to be a floor spacing big who plays 4&5 behind jaxon and Zion next year, I would be pretty happy.
Bulls deal final.
https://www.nba.com/pelicans/news/pe...-chicago-bulls
I mean this is pretty obvious cherry picking of stats. Why 39%? Shooting 39% is pretty good but it's not elite. 50 players averaged 40% or greater last year. Hield was 69th. Nice. Saying he's one of two at 270+ over three seasons just means he takes a lot of threes at a decent rate and rarely misses a game. But I don't care if a NFL QB is first or second in the league in passing attempts. It doesn't automaticaly make them one of the best passers in the league.
And one of those three seasons was before signing a new deal. And he did it with significantly fewer attempts. He was at 43% three straight years until his new contract. Now 39% the last two. What gives.
Could he average 45% playing next to Zion and Ingram? Probably. But only if he actually tries. I think it's also safe to say that's a major reason why he seems to have gotten worse each of the last two years, especially when he responds to criticism with "Yup and dem checks still coming in”
Let's take Dae's lineup and remove Ingram and Zion.......and I guess JV.
If all of these guys were on the roster for Utah, Phoenix, Denver, or LAC.......who is getting regular rotation minutes?
See, I'm a very optimistic person. My fantasy would have been to keep Zo, keep Hart, let the youth grow (but dump Bled for JV still) and ride to the finals in a few years with our homegrown players. Because I get attached to players. I love these guys. I don't want to trade off Kira and Jaxson for someone else. I want to win a chip with our current guys.
But the reality is that the only set positions on this team are Zion and Bi......and probably JV. No one else has earned a starting spot. No one else has earned the 6th man spot. We don't have "top of the league" depth. We have "maybe gets a play in spot" depth. I absolutely hope our guys progress and earn those spots this season but it hasn't happened, yet. Maaayyyybe Graham gets some rotation minutes on those top teams but he's currently our lead guard.
We're not in a position to turn down a possible 6th or 7th man.
Last edited by msusousaphone; 08-09-2021 at 01:24 AM.
i think the pels bring in markannen and retain hart. i think our 2nd team immediately gets much better and we have 3 guys gunning for 6th man. i think kira/hart and markannen off the bench would make our team pretty fun to watch. we have that lovely trade exception...
I just wrote out a big thing and then deleted it because it's really not worth it. I'll try to make my explanation super clear.
Your post sounds like it was written to be solely contrarian. It doesn't take into account degree of difficulty or shot volume. Accounting for things like volume and degree of difficulty is like, baseline level analysis.
Zion was only 73rd in restricted area shooting percentage last season: would you say that Zion is a mediocre finisher at the rim? Very probably not. Duncan Robinson shot a better %age at the rim than Zion last year. Was he actually a better finisher? No, he wasn't. But because he isn't a better finisher, he only ever took shots at the rim when they were wide open in transition or off cuts - Zion, by comparison, took literally 900 more attempts and self-created his 2pt attempts almost 50% of the time compared to Robinson's 10%. So we understand that even though Zion shot a worse percentage in the restricted area, he is still the better finisher than Duncan Robinson, because both volume and degree of difficulty matter.
The exact same thing is true of Buddy. Arguing that his 39% on his insane volume and degree of difficulty is ''pretty good'' rather than elite because 50 players shot 40% or better, when those 50 names include guys like Nicolas Batum, Bobby Portis, and Jeff Green who can only shoot when assisted from a standstill, usually sat just waiting to get a catch in the corners, is equally as silly as pretending that Zion is just ''pretty good'' at paint scoring because 72 other players shot better raw percentages.
Imo, the goal is to (at minimum) become relevant before it all blows up again. Sucking has immense consequences, and poisons our perception in the league and even with guys on our roster.
Outside of Zion/BI/Val, we know Graham is an NBA player at a decent price. Of course, we are very optimistic some of our young guys will become NBA players, but we can't be sure of any. If we can get Lauri at a decent price without giving anything up, that adds another NBA player for the next few years. Whether he contributes or we trade him, the competency he will likely provides is incredibly beneficial to the dumpster fire we have been. The grind of the season and injuries will enable sufficient development and evaluation, notwithstanding the minutes he soaks up. And, who knows, his offensive prowess may click with Zion's.
Last edited by b_l_p; 08-09-2021 at 03:45 AM.
If Lauri freaking Markannen is the difference between being relevant and sucking, then the team has big problems.
In the NBA 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 does not always equal 8. By that, I mean that you arent going to have better results just because you have better raw talent. The teams that overachieve in the regular season are the ones with the guys who put forward the most effort, gel the most, etc. The Knicks had an over/under of like 22 last season and didnt exceed that because of raw talent. They had a bunch of hungry guys who wanted to prove or redeem themselves, that were willing to sacrifice for the greater good. The Pelicans dont need another skilled offensive player allergic to defense. If they want to add another dog, I am all for it. A soft big who can shoot but doesnt want to get physical on the glass, take a charge, or set a hard screen to get others open? Pass.
I don’t understand how you can be pro Kevin Love, then anti-Markkanen at half the price. You can’t be pro Kevin Love then push a youth movement. The Pels need as much reasonably priced talent as they can get. They have yet to prove that they are a good team and have slim pickings in free agency. Why can’t we “take a chance” on a guy like Markkanen if given the opportunity to sign him to a reasonable deal?
Last edited by Darkhorse985; 08-09-2021 at 08:14 AM.
3 seasons over 39% on that volume is far from a "decent rate."
I wasnt pro Kevin Love. I was pro taking a guy at his absolutely lowest value, who might be hungry to redeem himself and could have a chance to perform at a high level if something is "fixed" (in Love's case, health). Also, that was at a time when I didnt know what the roster construction would look like and could have been very thin if we went another route. Would I want Love now? No, not unless he is bought out and takes a 1 year deal. Then, maybe.
Lauri, by all accounts, is not humbled. He is not willing to do whatever it takes to get back into the good graces of the league. He feels wronged by the Bulls and how they played him and I am sure wants a bigger role and an amount of money that puts him on par with who he thinks are his peers (not his actual peers)
Now, if Lauri calls me directly if I am Griff and says "I am willing to do whatever it takes to help the team win and trust your staff with however they use me" I bring him in on a 1 or 2 year deal. But I dont get that vibe from him at all, and top picks dont usually reach that level of humility until their 3rd or 4th team. Maybe I will be down to get Lauri then
Who knows? We do not know the personalities and wants/needs of any player. Who knows if Love has been humbled? He basically got tossed of the Olympic team. It is tough for us to judge all the players and their mental state regarding their next team.
See JJ Redick
Agree it is tough -- and it is why many of us are wrong so often even with all the access to game tape and stats, etc. The human element is something we dont have access to and it is often the most important element.
All I can go on is NBA history, and for the same reason I didnt want to re-sign Ball, I wouldnt want Lauri right now. Guys taken that high who show something their first few years often go to team 2 and get overpaid, get traded to team 3 on that same overpaid contract and then dont give real value to their team until team 4, on a cheap deal after they have been humbled. Now, maybe Ball or Lauri will be outliers, but I dont like betting on outliers. I will stick with the trends of NBA history. Gimme Lauri or Ball in 2026, after they got a deal like Otto Porter got this offseason
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