Pels Off season thread

[KoMikaera]

Claiming that the Adams trade was an overpay isn't a claim, it's actual fact. So the onus is on you to disprove it

Actually claiming "the Adams trade was an overpay" is an opinion. Let me explain:

What was paid for Adams in picks etc in the trade is a fact.

Whether that payment constituted an "overpayment" is a matter of opinion which, by definition, can neither be proved or disproved.

So, with respect, I think your opinion sucks. But you're entitled to it.

[MichaelMcNamara]

It is, indeed, an opinion. However you feel about it afterwards.

We could have given up 8 firsts for him and it would not be 'fact' that it is an overpay. Its all opinions.

The key is acknowledging the facts inside your opponents opinion. Such as the TRUE cost of acquiring him. All the costs, including opportunity costs. As long as people act in good faith and do that, they can have whatever opinion they want. You think Adams is worth all that, it is your right. You are insane, but its your right

[AusPel]

Actually claiming "the Adams trade was an overpay" is an opinion. Let me explain:

What was paid for Adams in picks etc in the trade is a fact.

Whether that payment constituted an "overpayment" is a matter of opinion which, by definition, can neither be proved or disproved.

So, with respect, I think your opinion sucks. But you're entitled to it.

Thanks for outing the yourself as an Adams trade apologist. We now know who the two of you are

[lawless522]

I would say if Jaxson becomes anywhere close to a star starting front court, I?m sleeping well at night reading the transaction like a nursery rhyme.

The neglect here is that everyone - pre trade - should have know what this deal was really about. We had Zion coming in to summer camps out of shape and Jaxson Hayes cursing out the NBA.

People are bumping old tired threads on some ?nana nana boo boo? but read any intelligent post in there. It?s littered with what Adams bring as a character.

Again...to suggest that the trade being about locker room stuff wasn?t about the picture is a question you must ask yourself if you honestly feel it was or not. If there?s any shadow of a doubt that it was indeed about bringing some type of moxy professionalism to a young core of frontcourt boys II men, then what are you arguing? You don’t know the price to that.

Not arguing the intent. Arguing the results. If Adams' leaderships intangibles were a key reason why we gave up so much to get him, then the fact that the players tuned out the coach and routinely gave questionable effort, shows that we overpaid for Adams' leadership.

Also, I don't know why you'll be directly attributing Hayes' future success to Adams. Seems incredibly hard to gauge with any certainty. I remember SVG benching Hayes because he didn't look too good the first half of the season. After close to a month of riding the bench, Hayes came back and played better. He said “Just being benched. That’s what made things click. I got to make sure I come to work every day and make sure I’m professional about everything." So, seems you could just as easily credit SVG.

[KoMikaera]

It is, indeed, an opinion. However you feel about it afterwards.

We could have given up 8 firsts for him and it would not be 'fact' that it is an overpay. Its all opinions.

The key is acknowledging the facts inside your opponents opinion. Such as the TRUE cost of acquiring him. All the costs, including opportunity costs. As long as people act in good faith and do that, they can have whatever opinion they want. You think Adams is worth all that, it is your right. You are insane, but its your right

Yes, I am right.

I come here because I enjoy and am interested in other opinions. The key however is not merely identifying facts, just as important is sifting out all the billshut. For example, 'we could have given up 8 firsts...' is a hypothetical, not a fact. And name calling like "you're insane" may be humorous but its a lame argument. It's an informal logical fallacy known as 'ad hominem' , meaning attacking the person rather than the argument they are making. Though hypocrisy doesn't strengthen your case either, saying that someone is entitled to their opinion, then saying they are insane for having that opinion is hypocritical. Making assumptions, like someone is an "opponent" just because they have a different opinion is another weakness. Maybe that person, unlike you, doesn't need or desire to win an argument on a message board.

And claiming that people can have whatever opinion they want on a trade so long as they act in good faith and consider all of the costs is another fallacy. Opinions can be informed or uninformed. Not everyone on here is a details person or a know it all but they're still entitled to an opinion aren't they ?

[KoMikaera]

Thanks for outing the yourself as an Adams trade apologist. We now know who the two of you are

Actually I'm not apologising for anything

But it should be pretty clear from my signature i'm fairly open about my bias.

[Eman5805]

I hope I wasn't this annoying back in my younger days.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Yes, I am right.

I come here because I enjoy and am interested in other opinions. The key however is not merely identifying facts, just as important is sifting out all the billshut. For example, 'we could have given up 8 firsts...' is a hypothetical, not a fact. And name calling like "you're insane" may be humorous but its a lame argument. It's an informal logical fallacy known as 'ad hominem' , meaning attacking the person rather than the argument they are making. Though hypocrisy doesn't strengthen your case either, saying that someone is entitled to their opinion, then saying they are insane for having that opinion is hypocritical. Making assumptions, like someone is an "opponent" just because they have a different opinion is another weakness. Maybe that person, unlike you, doesn't need or desire to win an argument on a message board.

And claiming that people can have whatever opinion they want on a trade so long as they act in good faith and consider all of the costs is another fallacy. Opinions can be informed or uninformed. Not everyone on here is a details person or a know it all but they're still entitled to an opinion aren't they ?

Yes, they are entitled to an opinion. Said it in the paragraph you quote tweeted and then you still ask if I think it. Odd.

An insane person has a right to an opinion. As does an ill informed person. But to act in good faith is to acknowledge the facts of your opponents arguments, not ignore the ones that harm your case. The correct way to debate is to attack the best version of your opponents argument, not the worst.

Ill informed people or people with bias that prevent them from seeing all sides, etc all have the right to their opinion, just as I have the right to mock them, call them insane, and question their intelligence and character. And an ad hominem, by the way, would only be applicable if I said their argument was incorrect BECAUSE of their insanity (or any other personal attack). In this case, I think their argument is the reason they are insane. So, it wouldnt be an ad hominem.

Study up the next time you try to come at someone with a Masters in Philosophy. Gotta come a little stronger next time

[luckyman]

Things Griff actually said post Adams trade:

We're in a situation where there is a world of optionality available to us...the pick assets we have give us a world of flexibility. And because we have a young group that is...quite frankly most of them on rookie scale...and other players that we're very high on and we've secured for multiple years on affordable numbers, we're going to be able to be aggressive if the right fit exists for us.... So I think you could see us do virtually anything

I think if there was something I would have done differently, in the way things came together from an execution standpoint, it was getting that close to the (luxury) tax to begin with. We did a lot of things to avoid the tax. That wasn't something that was being asked of us, that was something where we just didn't want to start our clock. I think this organization and ownership team has been very clear with us ...that when we have a chance to put the peddle to the metal and build a championship team, and really sustain our culture in a way the Saints have, I believe there is a willingness to do that (go over the luxury tax), but it's about picking your spots. We're not going to be a team that routinely pays into the tax.

^^^this has everything to do with going after big names like Beal, and nothing to do with being restricted on using the f'kg MLE in a single year. He said NOTHING about losing flexibility. He literally said they have a world of flexibility.

He said they'd absolutely breach the tax should the right opportunity comes along. How hard is it to go listen to the actual words from his mouth?

Here's more...

I think we made it very clear to teams that had players we thought were clear upgrades that we were very willing to go very deeply after those players

The noise around the game is so much more significant now than it's ever been. The lack of truth in what you can read and what is said is overwhelming...Most things that are in print because somebody stands to gain by putting them that way and by "leaking" those stories.

[MichaelMcNamara]

You are just not smart OR you only see what you want to see. Or both.

He says they have flexibility with regard to.moving forward. They didnt have it last year once they made the Adams trade which he literally says right there with his regard to being right up against the tax after that trade.

They werent going to go into it and start the clock for an MLE guy. But without the Adams trade they could have used the MLE without going into the tax. Hence, they would have used it. Hence, it was a cost that is part of the Adams trade.

I cant believe i still have to explain this to you. Somebody, get this kid a brain

[PELICANSFAN]

Effectively a lottery protected 1st (a 15 - 30 in '23, or '24, or '25) and two seconds. You aren't going to trade for any legit starter without giving up some kind of 1st. What OKC could flip Hill into is their doing. Because not every team is in the same position. Diminishing returns stands in every transaction.

This team literally has four 2nds (34, 40, 43, and 53) they've got to do something with this year alone. What is the point in stock piling more and more 2nds when you have more than enough already? This team is not in the same position as OKC. They have literally SGA, a borderline all-star, and now Kemba for trade purposes. They are literally still buidling from scratch. This team is not.

So again, a lottery protected 1st and two (or four) 2nds for a player that helps you in the paint immensely is not an overpay. Especially when that player himself can be flipped on a friendly extension.

Hey but at least we aren't calling out losing Kenrich Williams anymore I see. Progress.

And the onus is on the person making the claim.

So now assets are no good? Can 2nds not be used in trades? Shams had reported that OKC would have to attach pick(s) to unload Adams' contract before Griffin bailed them out and gave them a 1st, 2 2nds and Hill (who ended up being flipped for 2 2nds). That is still a bundle and then to compound it by extending him above market made it worse. There is no defense. Even with a much lower salary, do you see Griffin being able to get that return on him if he trades him this offseason? If you thought he was worth that at $30 million, surely he would be worth that or more at $17 million.

[MichaelMcNamara]

People ask why I am such a jerk and talk down to people. I think some of you are seeing how frustrating it is to try to converse with 2 or 3 people who are so ill informed yet think they are brilliant and you are the dumb one.

I used to be really nice 8 or 9 years ago. A couple hundred people like this eventually break you and you become a jerk
It is what it is

[luckyman]

So now assets are no good? Can 2nds not be used in trades? Shams had reported that OKC would have to attach pick(s) to unload Adams' contract before Griffin bailed them out and gave them a 1st, 2 2nds and Hill (who ended up being flipped for 2 2nds). That is still a bundle and then to compound it by extending him above market made it worse. There is no defense. Even with a much lower salary, do you see Griffin being able to get that return on him if he trades him this offseason? If you thought he was worth that at $30 million, surely he would be worth that or more at $17 million.

Never said they aren't any good. I just listed the fact that they have FOUR seconds this year alone, which will be used in trades. Some of which likely for more 2nds.

What Shams says is not a fact. It's what he says that you can choose to believe or not. We'll just have to see what that $17 mil salary for 2 years brings back. The years also matter. But yes he is definitely movable this year and certainly next.

But trading for a starting center and giving up a lottery protected 1st, two 2nds, and getting Hill's cap space was not an overpay. Especially when you consider the alternatives, which nobody seems to be able to provide. Not even with the benefit of hindsight. Especially when they still have much flexibility to continue to make moves.

[Sleeper]

Anyways. Adams trade wasn?t a slam dunk but not terrible IMO. You got a great defensive player on a short deal at 17 Mil. Not like we were going to do much with that $27 Mil in salary last off season and i?m glad we didn?t. Now we have Bledsoe and Adams as trade pieces with huge salary combined and a boatload of first round picks.. As well as a couple of early second round picks this year in a deep draft.

Off to what do with these assets.

If we get in the top 4-7 pick, what do you guys think of this?

Pels trade: 7th pick of the draft, Bledsoe, Adams, future lakers first

Pels Receive: Brogdon, Turner

I would then try and offload our second round picks to get D Finney Smith from the Mavs. He is great insurance in the case Hart walks.


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[Darkhorse985]

Anyways. Adams trade wasn?t a slam dunk but not terrible IMO. You got a great defensive player on a short deal at 17 Mil. Not like we were going to do much with that $27 Mil in salary last off season and i?m glad we didn?t. Now we have Bledsoe and Adams as trade pieces with huge salary combined and a boatload of first round picks.. As well as a couple of early second round picks this year in a deep draft.

Off to what do with these assets.

If we get in the top 4-7 pick, what do you guys think of this?

Pels trade: 7th pick of the draft, Bledsoe, Adams, future lakers first

Pels Receive: Brogdon, Turner

I would then try and offload our second round picks to get D Finney Smith from the Mavs. He is great insurance in the case Hart walks.


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Add another 1st round pick or 2 and I’d shoot for Sabonis and Brogdon.

[luckyman]

Add another 1st round pick or 2 and I’d shoot for Sabonis and Brogdon.

They can S&T Lonzo to Indiana for either, which may not have to include any draft capital, or just a swap of draft capital.

[Darkhorse985]

They can S&T Lonzo to Indiana for either, which may not have to include any draft capital, or just a swap of draft capital.

I’d bet my life savings that Lonzo Ball would not agree to sign with the Indiana Pacers. Lonzo will realistically sign with one of 5 teams imo (Knicks, Bulls, Clippers, Nuggets, or Hornets).

[Sleeper]

Add another 1st round pick or 2 and I?d shoot for Sabonis and Brogdon.

IMO we need defense in return. We can just sign Otto Porter in FA for our stretch four.

I haven?t watched Sabonis play much but he is not much help defense right?


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[hornetzplaya]

I REALLY don't see Indy getting rid of anybody without a test run with a fully healthy roster.

[luckyman]

I’d bet my life savings that Lonzo Ball would not agree to sign with the Indiana Pacers. Lonzo will realistically sign with one of 5 teams imo (Knicks, Bulls, Clippers, Nuggets, or Hornets)

My opinions on Lonzo's personality have changed. I think he would. Klutch is another story.

[Sleeper]

I?d bet my life savings that Lonzo Ball would not agree to sign with the Indiana Pacers. Lonzo will realistically sign with one of 5 teams imo (Knicks, Bulls, Clippers, Nuggets, or Hornets)

Yeah i thought about including Lonzo in a sign and trade and deleted it. He isn?t going to Indiana. He has to agree to it.


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[Sleeper]

I REALLY don't see Indy getting rid of anybody without a test run with a fully healthy roster.

Yeah Brogdon was injured a good bit. I think he is a perfect fit for this team though. I wanted him when he was with the Bucks. Smart player who i think could be a CP3 type player who slows the game down for Zion.

You?re right though. That makes sense. They don?t seem to be in fire sale mode but neither did the Thunder.


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[Sleeper]

They can S&T Lonzo to Indiana for either, which may not have to include any draft capital, or just a swap of draft capital.

We are a small market team and have our star player threatening to leave in year two. We don?t have much leverage in trades except sizeable expiring deals on vets who can play and first round picks. Is what it is.


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[redrum]

People ask why I am such a jerk and talk down to people. I think some of you are seeing how frustrating it is to try to converse with 2 or 3 people who are so ill informed yet think they are brilliant and you are the dumb one.

I used to be really nice 8 or 9 years ago. A couple hundred people like this eventually break you and you become a jerk
It is what it is

Don't let it break you, it has been great to have you back in the conversation!
The internet allows for everyone's opinion, informed, illogical, or enlightened.
Post what you feel is relevant.....period. People will figure it out in their own time.

[Silverfoxx]

People ask why I am such a jerk and talk down to people. I think some of you are seeing how frustrating it is to try to converse with 2 or 3 people who are so ill informed yet think they are brilliant and you are the dumb one.

I used to be really nice 8 or 9 years ago. A couple hundred people like this eventually break you and you become a jerk
It is what it is

Every village needs a lovable ************** Mac. Real ones know where you stand. Keep pushing man.