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Thread: 2021 NBA PLAYOFFS THREAD

  1. #576
    I wonder if Philly sees how easy it is to score when Trae has to guard. He basically just moves out of the way.

  2. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    Add it TO WHAT LEVEL?? This is what I keep asking to see what the baseline of expectations are. A ton of guys shoot a mid range off the dribble. But there are different level threats. Same with 3. I hate when people reduce 3 to the percentage when some guys get there solely off catch and shoot and others create the majority of their looks.

    I am asking people to give me a current player that they think is a realistic, median outcome for Zion from levels 2 and 3 when he hits his prime. Mine would be Westbrook from 2nd level. I think he can get defenders on their heels and have a solid pull up that is wide open because defender is terrified of him getting to the rim. For 3rd level, I would say Rondo - in that he can get his own but most of his looks will be spot ups and he will shoot an overall bad percentage but will hit some when it matters.

    People expecting more or less than what I laid out?
    I think he can be pretty damned respectable in the sense that I think his touch is good. But I cannot give you an exact estimate because I still have a questions as to how fluid his shooting motion will be off the pull-up. We have to see how it goes with Vinson in the offseason as that may give me a better view of where he stands. But as I said, I think his touch is good and he understands the distance to the basket (which is why he can nail threes despite having a janky shot).

  3. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    I think he can be pretty damned respectable in the sense that I think his touch is good. But I cannot give you an exact estimate because I still have a questions as to how fluid his shooting motion will be off the pull-up. We have to see how it goes with Vinson in the offseason as that may give me a better view of where he stands. But as I said, I think his touch is good and he understands the distance to the basket (which is why he can nail threes despite having a janky shot).
    I mean, take out that first fluke game and he has made an average of .1 three's per game at a clip of under 30%

    I am not asking anybody to predict it exactly right, or hold it against you if you are wrong. But you have to have some kind of baseline of realistic expectation to roster construct. If you think he will be Ben Simmons from 2nd and 3rd level, you build one way. Westbrook, another. Giannis, another. But if you think he can slowly evolve the way Lebron has, then you build another way. You have to have some idea of what you expect, otherwise how do you build your roster accordingly?
    Last edited by MichaelMcNamara; 06-08-2021 at 07:34 PM.
    @mcnamara247

  4. #579
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    I mean, take out that first fluke game and he has made an average of .1 three's per game at a clip of under 30%

    I am not asking anybody to predict it exactly right, or hold it against you if you are wrong. But you have to have some kind of baseline of realistic expectation to roster construct. If you think he will be Ben Simmons from 2nd and 3rd level, you build one way. Westbrook, another. Giannis, another. But if you think he can slowly evolve the way Lebron has, then you build another way. You have to have some idea of what you expect, otherwise how do you build your roster accordingly?
    Either way you build the roster according to his strengths Mac. I am not debating that. I do however think Zion is very capable of expanding his game (and range) to a competent level (maybe even a good one), but much of it hinges on how quickly he can make the necessary adjustments to his release. Some players take multiple off seasons and others learn very quickly. I think as it stands, it will take a while. But Vinson has shown what he can do already with Lonzo. I see no reason why Zion can’t fix it.

  5. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    Either way you build the roster according to his strengths Mac. I am not debating that. I do however think Zion is very capable of expanding his game (and range) to a competent level (maybe even a good one), but much of it hinges on how quickly he can make the necessary adjustments to his release. Some players take multiple off seasons and others learn very quickly. I think as it stands, it will take a while. But Vinson has shown what he can do already with Lonzo. I see no reason why Zion can’t fix it.
    I wouldnt build to his current strengths, because if those current strengths are his future strengths, you arent going to build a championship roster. As for Vinson, I am so tired of hearing about that dude. Sure, Lonzo got a little better and Ingram went back to his rookie form and became a good FT shooter. But how come nobody ever mentions all the players who didnt improve with us? Or even more, why dont people mention all the guys who got way better after they left? Like Randle, like Kenrich, and so many more.

    Fred Vinson is another guy. Every team has one, you just dont know their names because you arent a fan of other teams. But trust me, Vinson is nothing special and isnt the cure for Zion's jumper. Lonzo shot over 40% in college. Ingram has had a great stroke all his life. Zion's jumper looks like someone having a seizure. To go from what he is now to even average would be an outlier in NBA history. Which is why I think its a cop out when everyone says he will get better but wont specify what exactly they expect. I think that is incredibly important to plan this roster

  6. #581
    It's funny!! Every time we speak about the future of this team, it's centered on one player who is pretty much a one dimensional player offensively at this point.

    May I be so bold as to mention that, OFFENSIVELY, we already have an All Star who is already capable at all three levels and has continued to demonstrate the work ethic required to improve? Yet, many in here are ready to trade him away for whatever 'name' we can get in return ASAP to make the other guy happy. I fully admit that BI is not the physical specimen that #1, and that he will never be the player that Zion is in the paint, but I proffer that Zion will never be the offensive threat that BI is at all three levels.

    Does BI have warts? Absolutely, especially on the defensive end. But let's also call it for what it is; Zion has plenty of warts too. Is he a finished product? I hope not, but I say the same thing about BI too. Also, BI gets criticized for his 'body-type', but let's not kid ourselves. There are a lot more NBA players who look like BI then Zion. This could be a positive for Zion, or it could also be a career killer if not managed properly.

    So as we salivate over elite stars we don't have, let's not forget the ones we do have....both of them
    Last edited by As I See It; 06-08-2021 at 08:41 PM.

  7. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    I wouldnt build to his current strengths, because if those current strengths are his future strengths, you arent going to build a championship roster. As for Vinson, I am so tired of hearing about that dude. Sure, Lonzo got a little better and Ingram went back to his rookie form and became a good FT shooter. But how come nobody ever mentions all the players who didnt improve with us? Or even more, why dont people mention all the guys who got way better after they left? Like Randle, like Kenrich, and so many more.

    Fred Vinson is another guy. Every team has one, you just dont know their names because you arent a fan of other teams. But trust me, Vinson is nothing special and isnt the cure for Zion's jumper. Lonzo shot over 40% in college. Ingram has had a great stroke all his life. Zion's jumper looks like someone having a seizure. To go from what he is now to even average would be an outlier in NBA history. Which is why I think its a cop out when everyone says he will get better but wont specify what exactly they expect. I think that is incredibly important to plan this roster
    At this point you are arguing to argue. Hedge your bets all you want Mac. Nobody is impressed. Good night

  8. #583
    Who is arguing? I have asked a very simple question and only one dude who said Barkley is kind of giving a concrete answer. Everyone else just says a vague "he will improve" - which means nothing considering he basically never shot from the 2nd or 3rd level. Every fan likes to think themselves a message board GM - well, these are the kind of convos you have to have as you build a team around a guy. You cant just wait around and see. You have to have a realistic projection. I am simply asking what that is. I have laid out mine and asked if you guys see similar or am I being "optimistic" or "pessimistic" with my projection.

    Sorry, if I was in a front office with a guy who worked for me/with me, I wouldnt accept "he will get better" and let the convo end there. Gotta dig deeper

  9. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    I wouldnt build to his current strengths, because if those current strengths are his future strengths, you arent going to build a championship roster. As for Vinson, I am so tired of hearing about that dude. Sure, Lonzo got a little better and Ingram went back to his rookie form and became a good FT shooter. But how come nobody ever mentions all the players who didnt improve with us? Or even more, why dont people mention all the guys who got way better after they left? Like Randle, like Kenrich, and so many more.

    Fred Vinson is another guy. Every team has one, you just dont know their names because you arent a fan of other teams. But trust me, Vinson is nothing special and isnt the cure for Zion's jumper. Lonzo shot over 40% in college. Ingram has had a great stroke all his life. Zion's jumper looks like someone having a seizure. To go from what he is now to even average would be an outlier in NBA history. Which is why I think its a cop out when everyone says he will get better but wont specify what exactly they expect. I think that is incredibly important to plan this roster
    Mac, you quite frankly aren’t worth responding to anymore. I tried to give you a chance. I did. But one comment from Lucky and all of a sudden you are throwing the toys out of the pram again. You have good insight at times, but ultimately your takes are horribly bad and you continue to be condescending to everyone even though most are trying to be civil. Easy mute. Farewell sweet prince

  10. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    Mac, you quite frankly aren’t worth responding to anymore. I tried to give you a chance. I did. But one comment from Lucky and all of a sudden you are throwing the toys out of the pram again. You have good insight at times, but ultimately your takes are horribly bad and you continue to be condescending to everyone even though most are trying to be civil. Easy mute. Farewell sweet prince
    But you still responded

  11. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by 13 - 3 View Post
    But you still responded
    I had to say good night first

  12. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    Mac, you quite frankly aren’t worth responding to anymore. I tried to give you a chance. I did. But one comment from Lucky and all of a sudden you are throwing the toys out of the pram again. You have good insight at times, but ultimately your takes are horribly bad and you continue to be condescending to everyone even though most are trying to be civil. Easy mute. Farewell sweet prince
    MAC asks the questions nobody cares to address. I remember when he simply said that Zion wasn't the clear cut choice over Ja that everybody was talking about in the 2019 draft and everyone balked. Today, I think there is a case to be made that Morvant was the better choice in that draft if for no other reason than the position he plays and the effect he has had on his team. This question will ultimately be decided over the course of two careers, but if this was a heavyweight fight, most would have given rounds one and two to Morant.

  13. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    MAC asks the questions nobody cares to address. I remember when he simply said that Zion wasn't the clear cut choice over Ja that everybody was talking about in the 2019 draft and everyone balked. Today, I think there is a case to be made that Morvant was the better choice in that draft if for no other reason than the position he plays and the effect he has had on his team. This question will ultimately be decided over the course of two careers, but if this was a heavyweight fight, most would have given rounds one and two to Morant.
    The guy just said that you shouldn’t build around a franchise cornerstone because of what he may or may not add to his game in the future. It is an actual brain dead take. I don’t think he even believes it, but he said it to be contrarian. Any guy that throws out a hundred guesses a day can be right once. Good for him.

  14. #589
    Also, Zion is by far the better talent. Another brain dead take about Jah

  15. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    The guy just said that you shouldn’t build around a franchise cornerstone because of what he may or may not add to his game in the future. It is an actual brain dead take. I don’t think he even believes it, but he said it to be contrarian. Any guy that throws out a hundred guesses a day can be right once. Good for him.
    I cant keep track. People say "Zion is only 20, has only played X games" - and inherent in that is that they are saying he is still going to evolve. Now, I ask, "Exactly what do you expect him to evolve to?" and its "Build around what he currently does!"

    No, what he currently is wont be what he is in 4 years. And if it is, like Ben Simmons, it will be a massive disappointment. He must become multi dimensional, and he likely will. And we have to project the level to build the right roster around him. I cant even believe this is some kind of controversial take. Its common sense

  16. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    Also, Zion is by far the better talent. Another brain dead take about Jah
    Zion is the better talent. My argument would be that Ja might be easily to construct a roster around. He has a clear position and at least some outside game, so you have more options available. If Zion never develops an outside game, you cant have another non shooting threat. He is also a perimeter player who cant defend perimeter players, and really cant defend interior ones either.

    So, while more supremely talented, I could argue Ja could be easier to construct around and he has already shown alpha leadership qualities. Still waiting to see those from Zion. Again, all of it (leadership, shooting, defense) might come. Also have to acknowledge some may not

  17. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    Also, Zion is by far the better talent. Another brain dead take about Jah
    I thought you called it a night?

  18. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    The guy just said that you shouldn’t build around a franchise cornerstone because of what he may or may not add to his game in the future. It is an actual brain dead take. I don’t think he even believes it, but he said it to be contrarian. Any guy that throws out a hundred guesses a day can be right once. Good for him.
    You have to project. It's exactly what Griff and company did with JAX. You have to plan based on your best estimates of his future. If you think Zion will be 'A', you have to add 'X'. If Zion turn out to be something different, then 'X' might not work.

    To say you are going to build around a player without projecting what that player will be in three to five years is simply foolhardy. I kind of think that's what Dumps did with AD; 'throw something at the wall and hope sticks'. Asik anyone?

  19. #594
    I dont know how this got hostile so fast. Didnt talk down to anybody or any of the other things people accuse me of doing. Maybe its others who are the issue?

    I simply am asking how people are projecting Zion moving forward. Then, based on these playoffs, how do you add around that to beat these top teams. Sorry if any feathers were ruffled

  20. #595
    Zion has a pretty smooth pull up from 10ft. Its his 3 pointers that looks awkward. His form could definitely improve but he already looks much less clunky and mechanical than Giannis looks. His 3-10 ft shooting this year is better than Giannis has had in his whole career. Giannis is a 35% shooter from midrange for his career which is gross. Westbrook is a decent projection. I could see Zion getting to 40%, mid 70s ft %, 35% from 3 on low volume. You can still gameplan against that level of a shooter but that would still be a good enough mark that there will be some games where Zion burns you for playing off him.

  21. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    Yes, he will improve.... But give me an exact level that you think is realistic? Are you saying Giannis level from mid and 3? Westbrook? Jimmy? Give me a player that you think it is realistic for him to be from the 2nd and 3rd level
    I see Zion level as being like Shawn Kemp...

    hell I'm the person who said we should trade Lonzo to Memphis and draft Morant and get as many picks and players from the deal because I believe we can build faster and easy around Morant and Ingram from the Memphis picks,, Lakers picks, and picks from a jrue trade that we was going to make...I still believe this today while Zion is doing all these amazing things as of now...

    I also believe until we get our curry, dame, Tre, luka type player at the pg or sg position we won't be contending anytime soon...

  22. #597
    Here are all of Zion's pull ups (or something kind of equivalent) from the season

    https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?fl...player&sct=hex

    Only 11 in total, so you can watch them all in about a minute.

  23. #598
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    It's not impossible that he can become proficient at that. And quite quickly. He's already started working on it. He just needs to dedicate himself to it. He'll surely find that it'll prolong his career and take considerably less stamina in the process.

  24. #599
    Utah fans telling the truth about Paul George

  25. #600
    Gobert just showed why he is the best defensive player in the NBA period

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