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Thread: March 3rd - New Orleans Pelicans vs Chicago Bulls - 15-19

  1. #126
    My question is, is the goal to make the playoffs, or are we looking to develop young talent? Because if the goal is developing young talent then tonight’s game didn’t show that. If the goal was to make the playoffs then tonight’s game didn’t show that.
    If you Jimmer it, they will come.

  2. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    .......it's hard to watch possession after possession after possession where Zion gets triple teamed in the paint because nobody gives a flying **** about any of your perimeter guys.......
    ....and everybody in the gym knows that he can only hurt you if he gets to the rim.

    Remind me again; who leads the team in turnovers this year?

  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    My question is, is the goal to make the playoffs, or are we looking to develop young talent? Because if the goal is developing young talent then tonight’s game didn’t show that. If the goal was to make the playoffs then tonight’s game didn’t show that.
    This, I don’t know what Stan is trying to do

  4. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Obviously the defense is a far higher priority, but it's hard to watch possession after possession after possession where Zion gets triple teamed in the paint because nobody gives a flying **** about any of your perimeter guys who, when they do get the ball, will happily pass on wide open shot after wide open shot.

    We have a good offense, especially recently, because Zion is a force of nature and because there's been outlier shooting from guys like Lonzo, but by and large there's a whole lot of empty possessions for this team on offense and it would be quite nice if we could trim them out. One way of doing that is by making the looks we get easier for our key guys - like Zion - and one way of doing that is having someone that they can't just cheat off of to triple team him.
    But is shooting really the problem? We have Lonzo that is shooting a higher percentage than Curry and Lilliard on 8 attempts a game, and we have another good 3 pt shooter in Ingram. I know JJ isn?t having his typical year but he?s been shooting better as of late and is still JJ reddick so teams are gonna respect his 3 ball. I mean is 3 ball shooting the issue? I guess kind of but 2 of our starters are shooting 40% and 39% from three. I think our issue is much more defensive

  5. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by HornetGuru View Post
    But is shooting really the problem? We have Lonzo that is shooting a higher percentage than Curry and Lilliard on 8 attempts a game, and we have another good 3 pt shooter in Ingram. I know JJ isn?t having his typical year but he?s been shooting better as of late and is still JJ reddick so teams are gonna respect his 3 ball. I mean is 3 ball shooting the issue? I guess kind of but 2 of our starters are shooting 40% and 39% from three. I think our issue is much more defensive
    Statistically I think you're right on the money in regard to our recent play. Interesting stat as of today, over our last 15 games:

    New Orleans Pelicans:

    Offensive rating 123.0 - Number One in the NBA
    Defensive rating 121.7 - Dead Last in the NBA

    WHichever way you look at it, that's quite an achievement
    Just another Kiwi basking in the reflected glory of Steven Adams....bask bask...

  6. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by HornetGuru View Post
    But is shooting really the problem? We have Lonzo that is shooting a higher percentage than Curry and Lilliard on 8 attempts a game, and we have another good 3 pt shooter in Ingram. I know JJ isn?t having his typical year but he?s been shooting better as of late and is still JJ reddick so teams are gonna respect his 3 ball. I mean is 3 ball shooting the issue? I guess kind of but 2 of our starters are shooting 40% and 39% from three. I think our issue is much more defensive
    It's completely different styles of shooting and I would hope at this point we all know it.

    The vast majority of Lonzo's shots are wide open, and he gets left wide open for a reason. He can't shoot off movement, he doesn't fly around off screens warping the defense, and he's not a dynamic guy who can shake the defender to get a shot off from a dribble: he's a set shooter. There is certainly value in that but it's not nearly the same as someone like Curry - who is actually shooting 41.1% from 3 on 12 a game, as opposed to Lonzo's 39.5% on 8 a game, not sure where the idea that Lonzo's shooting better than him has come from - who is bending the defense into a curly straw with his movement. We have nobody like that. Of course Curry is the greatest shooter ever and is therefore an outlier, but the same thing applies in principle to guys like JJ Redick prior to this season, or Duncan Robinson this year: the threes they take are different, and the effect they have is different.

    Ingram is a very good shooter but as watching any Pelicans game will show you, players are very very happy to leave him on the perimeter to cheat onto Zion and they do it regularly. They don't want him getting wide open shots with regularity but they're okay with conceding light contests to him if it means blocking off Zion. That's not the case with the kind of shooter I'm talking about: even earlier this season when Redick was shooting like pure garbage, defenses still freaked out reacting to him in a way that just doesn't happen with anyone else on our roster.

    Anyway, you saying ''I think our issue is much more defensive'' is fair but it's also something I agree with, as me saying ''obviously the defense is a far higher priority'' would imply. I'm just talking about the long-term teambuilding requirements, not what is immediately most important right this moment.
    Basketball.

  7. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Obviously the defense is a far higher priority, but it's hard to watch possession after possession after possession where Zion gets triple teamed in the paint because nobody gives a flying **** about any of your perimeter guys who, when they do get the ball, will happily pass on wide open shot after wide open shot.

    We have a good offense, especially recently, because Zion is a force of nature and because there's been outlier shooting from guys like Lonzo, but by and large there's a whole lot of empty possessions for this team on offense and it would be quite nice if we could trim them out. One way of doing that is by making the looks we get easier for our key guys - like Zion - and one way of doing that is having someone that they can't just cheat off of to triple team him.
    Our defense is the main problem as it almost always is every year, but I?m not buying this offense. A team can stop us whenever they feel like it, and for that reason I?d say our offensive numbers are a bit superficial. It?s easy for other teams to let Zion tucker himself out and pick any quarter to build an insurmountable lead by stifling our inside game, then they go back to cruise control. Notice how badly we struggle in the clutch when we?ve actually managed to keep it close. Hardly sounds like a great offense to me. People need to make shots. That statistic the other night about winning by taking so few 3 pointers was damning. That?s not a recipe for success in today?s NBA.

  8. #133
    I despise the way this roster is currently constructed. This is all on Griffin. He needs to fix this ASAP.

  9. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    Our defense is the main problem as it almost always is every year, but I?m not buying this offense. A team can stop us whenever they feel like it, and for that reason I?d say our offensive numbers are a bit superficial. It?s easy for other teams to let Zion tucker himself out and pick any quarter to build an insurmountable lead by stifling our inside game, then they go back to cruise control. Notice how badly we struggle in the clutch when we?ve actually managed to keep it close. Hardly sounds like a great offense to me. People need to make shots. That statistic the other night about winning by taking so few 3 pointers was damning. That?s not a recipe for success in today?s NBA.
    This is kind of what I'm saying, so I mostly agree. Zion is an unstoppable force, but it's also completely unfair to ask him to bail us out every game. Now, the positive side of this is that we don't ask him to do that: we usually ignore him for entire fourth quarters at a time while losing the lead. That's bittersweet at best.

    We need legitimate 3pt shooting threats with real gravity, who can drag defenses around with off-ball movement and utilise things like screening action to create good looks for themselves that don't rely on Zion more. This is why the Redick/Zion 2 man game has been so effective when we've run it: Redick has a million flaws, nobody denies that at this point, but the reality is that defenses actually care about him, which makes the game so much easier for Zion as well.

    For as well as Lonzo has improved as a shooter, and he has, and the same for Ingram, they don't get their shots in the same way and defenses just flat out do not care about those guys as much as these real motion shooters.

    For some evidence of this, watch that clip I posted on the last page where we pass up on all those wide open 3 opportunities. Why do we have all those opportunities? Well, cause Ingram's man is willing to completely ignore him to triple team Zion, to the point that his back is literally turned, and Lonzo's man feels fine sagging 8 feet off him too. They can shoot but they don't warp defense, at least not with Zion as the other guy: nobody is giving up guarding Zion at the basket to try and defend Ingram or Lonzo from the arc.

    Someone like Duncan Robinson would change that. That's a different type of shooter, and the impact is very different.
    Last edited by Pelicanidae; 03-04-2021 at 05:07 AM.

  10. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    My question is, is the goal to make the playoffs, or are we looking to develop young talent? Because if the goal is developing young talent then tonight’s game didn’t show that. If the goal was to make the playoffs then tonight’s game didn’t show that.
    And if we are tanking, Monday’s game did not show that either.

  11. #136
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    We’re trying to do everything and will accomplish less than nothing in the process.

    There’s no benefit in this tactic. I don’t care if we make the playoffs. We aren’t ready to do anything once we get there. We should be running lineups with Kira, NAW, and Hayes and let them figure things out. Pop JJ and Bledsoe somewhere else and just chill the F out.

  12. #137
    I want SVG to give JAX Adams minutes for a while with Billy as a backup. Let Adams heal his body. Dude isn't the same as the in the start of the year. On JJ's podcast he even as so much admitted to it.

  13. #138
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    It's completely different styles of shooting and I would hope at this point we all know it.

    The vast majority of Lonzo's shots are wide open, and he gets left wide open for a reason. He can't shoot off movement, he doesn't fly around off screens warping the defense, and he's not a dynamic guy who can shake the defender to get a shot off from a dribble: he's a set shooter. There is certainly value in that but it's not nearly the same as someone like Curry - who is actually shooting 41.1% from 3 on 12 a game, as opposed to Lonzo's 39.5% on 8 a game, not sure where the idea that Lonzo's shooting better than him has come from - who is bending the defense into a curly straw with his movement. We have nobody like that. Of course Curry is the greatest shooter ever and is therefore an outlier, but the same thing applies in principle to guys like JJ Redick prior to this season, or Duncan Robinson this year: the threes they take are different, and the effect they have is different.

    Ingram is a very good shooter but as watching any Pelicans game will show you, players are very very happy to leave him on the perimeter to cheat onto Zion and they do it regularly. They don't want him getting wide open shots with regularity but they're okay with conceding light contests to him if it means blocking off Zion. That's not the case with the kind of shooter I'm talking about: even earlier this season when Redick was shooting like pure garbage, defenses still freaked out reacting to him in a way that just doesn't happen with anyone else on our roster.

    Anyway, you saying ''I think our issue is much more defensive'' is fair but it's also something I agree with, as me saying ''obviously the defense is a far higher priority'' would imply. I'm just talking about the long-term teambuilding requirements, not what is immediately most important right this moment.
    Last I looked, the shot still counts for 3 points. There are not many players that teams are not going to lay off of in order to cheat on Zion. What player can we realistically get that checks all the boxes you want from a shooter that scores in the fashion that you want them to? JJ appears to be that type of shooter, but has struggled. Who can we get?

  14. #139
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sterlr View Post
    I want SVG to give JAX Adams minutes for a while with Billy as a backup. Let Adams heal his body. Dude isn't the same as the in the start of the year. On JJ's podcast he even as so much admitted to it.
    Adams has been terrible lately on both ends. His body has a lot of miles on it, so he probably takes a lot longer to heal.

  15. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by sterlr View Post
    I want SVG to give JAX Adams minutes for a while with Billy as a backup. Let Adams heal his body. Dude isn't the same as the in the start of the year. On JJ's podcast he even as so much admitted to it.
    It's a bit strange. I thought he came back strong from that ankle injury. Looked like he was fired up. Last night was maybe the worst game I've seen him play. Our guards seem to put our bigs in impossible situations a lot but that was worse than I'm used to seeing. The rebounding was notably bad too.

    Just an ugly game overall.

    Shooting reverted back to the early-season struggles.
    Defense took a big step back, worse than just the recent struggles against 3s.
    I don't think they've had a worse game rebounding the ball.
    I was surprised they only had 11 turnovers in the box score cause that was really ugly for a while there.

  16. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Stalwart385 View Post
    It's a bit strange. I thought he came back strong from that ankle injury. Looked like he was fired up. Last night was maybe the worst game I've seen him play. Our guards seem to put our bigs in impossible situations a lot but that was worse than I'm used to seeing. The rebounding was notably bad too.

    Just an ugly game overall.

    Shooting reverted back to the early-season struggles.
    Defense took a big step back, worse than just the recent struggles against 3s.
    I don't think they've had a worse game rebounding the ball.
    I was surprised they only had 11 turnovers in the box score cause that was really ugly for a while there.
    I think he's playing with a sprained knee. Really lacking Lateral movement

  17. #142
    I gotta admit Zion really wants to be winner. Spent close to an hour after a game shooting FTs and he was heated in the interview

  18. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    I gotta admit Zion really wants to be winner. Spent close to an hour after a game shooting FTs and he was heated in the interview
    If that’s the case, Griffin has done a poor job building a winner. Banking on Melli was a mistake. Bledsoe is just a poor fit when it’s all said and done (and unfortunately he realizes he is wasting his time too). Reddick going AWOL absolutely killed this team in the first half of the year. Now it completely lacks confidence and it shows. We would have been well served just tanking or bringing in some shooters at the VERY LEAST. A traditional PG for Kira to understudy would also have been a good idea. I just can’t stand our lack of direction.

  19. #144
    Chicago, as a team last night, shot better than 50/40/90. As a team. I mean there is bad defense and then there is the Pelicans defense. I don't get how we can be THIS bad...

  20. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    Last I looked, the shot still counts for 3 points. There are not many players that teams are not going to lay off of in order to cheat on Zion. What player can we realistically get that checks all the boxes you want from a shooter that scores in the fashion that you want them to? JJ appears to be that type of shooter, but has struggled. Who can we get?
    The shot does count for 3 points, but let's not pretend that they impact defenses the same way. They don't, and we both know it. You can't tell me that there's no difference between how teams defend someone like Lonzo and how teams defend someone like (a normal season of) Redick. One, they're happy to ignore. The other, they go into panic mode rushing to try and chase. Movement matters. Plus, of course, while the point value is the same, the circumstances of shooting don't. Someone like JJ has been valuable in his career because he can get that shot off in any circumstance and still hit: it doesn't matter who has been on him or when he catches it or what, if he gets an inch of daylight he can kill. Lonzo is not like that, nor is Ingram: if you make the shot even slightly difficult, their ability to get that shot off is reduced highly, and that changes how you have to defend them. Redick needs to be smothered: Lonzo can kinda just be left and you don't mind recovering a little late on him.

    I've argued for Duncan Robinson for a long time, won't go over all the reasons again cause I think they're quite obvious from context and everything. I do think he's gettable, though the price is up for debate: I don't think he'll be quite as expensive as some people fear, though, and I think the value he'd add to this time would be worth it.

  21. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by new city champ View Post
    Chicago, as a team last night, shot better than 50/40/90. As a team. I mean there is bad defense and then there is the Pelicans defense. I don't get how we can be THIS bad...
    Our best perimeter defender is probably Josh Hart, who is a high-intensity/mediocre skill guy. That's how our defense can be this bad. Not a single real defensive 'stopper' on the roster. Not one.

  22. #147
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    The shot does count for 3 points, but let's not pretend that they impact defenses the same way. They don't, and we both know it. You can't tell me that there's no difference between how teams defend someone like Lonzo and how teams defend someone like (a normal season of) Redick. One, they're happy to ignore. The other, they go into panic mode rushing to try and chase. Movement matters. Plus, of course, while the point value is the same, the circumstances of shooting don't. Someone like JJ has been valuable in his career because he can get that shot off in any circumstance and still hit: it doesn't matter who has been on him or when he catches it or what, if he gets an inch of daylight he can kill. Lonzo is not like that, nor is Ingram: if you make the shot even slightly difficult, their ability to get that shot off is reduced highly, and that changes how you have to defend them. Redick needs to be smothered: Lonzo can kinda just be left and you don't mind recovering a little late on him.

    I've argued for Duncan Robinson for a long time, won't go over all the reasons again cause I think they're quite obvious from context and everything. I do think he's gettable, though the price is up for debate: I don't think he'll be quite as expensive as some people fear, though, and I think the value he'd add to this time would be worth it.
    I get that someone who is chased causes more issues with defenses. However, if defenses are willing to leave a 39% 3pt shooter wide open, you take the 3 points. JJ has shown that it is not that much different with the way the defenses are playing Zion. They seem to cheat regardless. Seems like we would need 2 or more consistent threats to chase some players off of Zion.

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    I get that someone who is chased causes more issues with defenses. However, if defenses are willing to leave a 39% 3pt shooter wide open, you take the 3 points. JJ has shown that it is not that much different with the way the defenses are playing Zion. They seem to cheat regardless. Seems like we would need 2 or more consistent threats to chase some players off of Zion.
    Defenses are willing to leave that 39% shooter open because they know he can only shoot it wide open. So they're happy to settle with a late closeout if he decides to gear up, and you can see that they're right to do so when you look at the difference between Lonzos widen open percentages versus his contested percentages. Right now, he can only shoot reliably if his feet are set and he has wide open airspace. When people close out hard, he panics.

    As I said before, if you want to see what playing Zion alongside a shooter who can and will let it fly, look at the numbers on Zion/Redicks 2 man game. It's hard to play Redick often and for long minutes because of his other issues but that play is by far our most reliable and effective at creating points and it's no mystery as to why.

    I agree that having more good shooters would amplify the effect, yeah.

  24. #149
    Stan made a good point last night. Zion stayed after the game to work on his free throws. Which is very good. Cool. Awesome.

    But he doesn't see his players putting in that extra work or be as pissed off about giving up 125+ points and 120+ offensive ratings. Chicago's was 124 last night against the Pelicans' 119. Those are awesome offensive numbers where the median team (Chicago at that) this year is at 111. At this point offense is bottom of the totem pole as far as problems to fix.

    Bledsoe also remains the most awful perimeter defender that is causing these break downs. He gets beat even without a screen and is still losing track of the man he's guarding.

  25. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Stan made a good point last night. Zion stayed after the game to work on his free throws. Which is very good. Cool. Awesome.

    But he doesn't see his players putting in that extra work or be as pissed off about giving up 125+ points and 120+ offensive ratings. Chicago's was 124 last night against the Pelicans' 119. Those are awesome offensive numbers where the median team (Chicago at that) this year is at 111. At this point offense is bottom of the totem pole as far as problems to fix.

    Bledsoe also remains the most awful perimeter defender that is causing these break downs. He gets beat even without a screen and is still losing track of the man he's guarding.
    I completely agree with your point, which makes this so hard to explain:
    Bledsoe:
    2019-2020 all nba defense second team
    2018-2019 all nba defense first team

    gets to the Pels and looks like one of the worst, least interested defensive players ever.

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