Truncated Offseason Thread

[Pelicanidae]

Sources : The Celtics and Pelicans have been holding very serious trade talks centered around Jrue Holiday.

Kemba Walker, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, and Gordon Hayward were all discussed, sources say.

In some of the discussed packages, the Pelicans’ 13th pick was included. pic.twitter.com/1osCoCpHgC

— The Sports Place (@offsportsplace) November 17, 2020

However in other news.... I'm sure it doesn't mean much but at least we're hard bargaining

If the Celtics could turn, say, #14 and #26 into #6, then a deal centred around #6, #30, Smart, and change could be extremely enticing. Smart is 26, possibly the only guard in the NBA with an argument for being on Jrue's level defensively, has a fantastic mentality, has improved dramatically as a pullup shooter over the last few years (even if he's got problems inside the arc on offense) and is a good passer even if not incredible. #6 would keep Killian Hayes on the table, which would give us an on-ball lead guard option going forward, and #30 would give us an option to take a flier on someone even if we ended up sending out #13 somewhere: Tillman, perhaps, to replace Favors? Just sort of thinking out loud here, not really deeply invested in this particular outcome.

[Pelicanidae]

Because we do not need low priced backup role players?

Sure but that framing ignores the specifics. It's not just ''low priced backup role players'' in general we're talking about - a term that could apply to all kinds of players who might be useful - but Kris Dunn and Lonzo Ball specifically. I cannot imagine a good team giving serious guard minutes to both. If you get one, you should be moving on from the other. NBA teams do not play multiple point guards who cannot score whatsoever, or create halfcourt offense whatsoever, in the same rotation if they want to be good.

[MichaelMcNamara]

If the Celtics could turn, say, #14 and #26 into #6, then a deal centred around #6, #30, Smart, and change could be extremely enticing. Smart is 26, possibly the only guard in the NBA with an argument for being on Jrue's level defensively, has a fantastic mentality, has improved dramatically as a pullup shooter over the last few years (even if he's got problems inside the arc on offense) and is a good passer even if not incredible. #6 would keep Killian Hayes on the table, which would give us an on-ball lead guard option going forward, and #30 would give us an option to take a flier on someone even if we ended up sending out #13 somewhere: Tillman, perhaps, to replace Favors? Just sort of thinking out loud here, not really deeply invested in this particular outcome.

in the NBA draft, 14 and 26 doesnt get you to 6. 14, 26, and 30 doesnt historically either. And Atlanta actually wants less picks (and more actual players), so its extra hard with them. I know for a fact that Celtics and Hawks talked quite a bit today and that is where the disconnect is. The Celtics have a better chance of getting 6 if they can trade those picks for actual players Atlanta likes and then get them to Atlanta. Hawks dont want 3 more rookies. They really dont want one more, if they had their way

[Pelicanidae]

in the NBA draft, 14 and 26 doesnt get you to 6. 14, 26, and 30 doesnt historically either. And Atlanta actually wants less picks (and more actual players), so its extra hard with them. I know for a fact that Celtics and Hawks talked quite a bit today and that is where the disconnect is. The Celtics have a better chance of getting 6 if they can trade those picks for actual players Atlanta likes and then get them to Atlanta. Hawks dont want 3 more rookies. They really dont want one more, if they had their way

*shrug* I'm just kind of theorising. What you say may be entirely true, but I guess that ''turning #14 and #26 into #6'' could theoretically happen by turning #14 and #26 into players X and Y and then turning those players into #6, for example. Like I said, this isn't me saying ''I have the trade!'', it's just kind of thinking out loud.

If Celtics were able to hypothetically transform #14 and #26 into #6, by some means - whether that's directly or indirectly - and then offer us #6, #30, Smart, and filler (not sure what exactly, I'd have to look at Boston's roster again) for Jrue, I think I would probably be considering that a good value return.

[MichaelMcNamara]

*shrug* I'm just kind of theorising. What you say may be entirely true, but I guess that ''turning #14 and #26 into #6'' could theoretically happen by turning #14 and #26 into players X and Y and then turning those players into #6, for example. Like I said, this isn't me saying ''I have the trade!'', it's just kind of thinking out loud.

If Celtics were able to hypothetically transform #14 and #26 into #6, by some means - whether that's directly or indirectly - and then offer us #6, #30, Smart, and filler (not sure what exactly, I'd have to look at Boston's roster again) for Jrue, I think I would probably be considering that a good value return.

Anything is possible, but the Celts are putting more in the trade if Hayward or Kemba are going out than Smart. In their eyes (not saying they are right), but in their eyes Smart is 90% of Jrue at half the price and is the heart of the team. Giving up 3 picks to barely upgrade wouldnt make sense from their perspective. Based on what I heard about the talks from Atlanta, they have been exploring trades where Hayward goes out. So, for instance, one they discussed was Hayward and a pick to Sacramento, who gives Atlanta Buddy and Cory Joseph, and Atlanta gives Boston 6 - which would go to us. Maybe a Huerter too.

So, something like 6, Huerter and a young guy from Boston (plus all the cap space and/or trade exception from the uneven trade) is a more likely return. Which is fine with me if: A) you have identified a guy at 6 you feel VERY strong about and B) you have agreements in place with the cap space you gained, ready to go

[Pelicanidae]

Anything is possible, but the Celts are putting more in the trade if Hayward or Kemba are going out than Smart. In their eyes (not saying they are right), but in their eyes Smart is 90% of Jrue at half the price and is the heart of the team. Giving up 3 picks to barely upgrade wouldnt make sense from their perspective. Based on what I heard about the talks from Atlanta, they have been exploring trades where Hayward goes out. So, for instance, one they discussed was Hayward and a pick to Sacramento, who gives Atlanta Buddy and Cory Joseph, and Atlanta gives Boston 6 - which would go to us. Maybe a Huerter too.

So, something like 6, Huerter and a young guy from Boston (plus all the cap space and/or trade exception from the uneven trade) is a more likely return. Which is fine with me if: A) you have identified a guy at 6 you feel VERY strong about and B) you have agreements in place with the cap space you gained, ready to go

I think Boston needs to be realistic about what they're searching for. Smart is Jrue's equal (more or less) on defense, and his mentality/fire is something to be reckoned with, so I appreciate their reluctance to part with him, but Jrue as an initiator and overall offensive player is much better. If Boston don't value that because they have Tatum as a primary and whatnot, then fine, but if they do want to add that skillset then that's something that have to be willing to pay for. Ainge has made a career out of trying to pay as little as possible for as much as possible, which is a good mindset to have, but it only really works if the other person is bent over a barrel: otherwise you end up with yet another 'I almost traded for' story, to join the ones about Kawhi, PG13, Anthony Davis, etc.

It's a much more difficult concept for me to buy into Hayward even close to as much as Smart. He's older than Jrue, more expensive than Jrue, and about to expire so there's every chance that he turns into nothing fairly quickly. I think if Boston is insistent on Hayward being the centrepiece then I'd be tempted to walk away from that deal.

When you outline 6, Huerter, and ''a young guy'' from Boston, for me it really depends who that young guy is whether or not that's tenable. I have zero interest in, say, Robert Williams, Semi Ojeleye, or Carsen Edwards. Obviously Tatum is off the table. So we're essentially talking about Grant Williams or Romeo Langford, which is an interesting proposition: I like Grant as a prospect quite a lot.

Would something like #6, Huerter, and Grant be enough? I'd feel a bit short-changed, probably, but then, am I always going to feel short changed in a deal for Jrue? Getting even value back in trades where you're losing the best player is rare.

[Pelicanidae]

James Harden turns down Rockets' $103 million extension, urging trade to Nets https://t.co/dhVIcAlT0W

— Jonathan Feigen (@Jonathan_Feigen) November 17, 2020

Harden turned down the Rockets’ offer of a two-year, $103 million contract extension, two individuals with knowledge of the offer confirmed. ESPN was the first to report the offer that would have had Harden, 31, under contract, for five more seasons.

The extension would have put Harden in line to become the highest-paid player in NBA history.

Harden apparently straight up saying no to $50m+ a year (that would kick in when he's like 34 lol) in order to maintain leverage for a move.

Dude appears to be very serious about getting out of Houston.

[Eman5805]

If only the Bulls or Hornets were an option somehow.

[Pelicanidae]

I’m hearing Sixers are very interested in & are trying to trade for Pelicans guard Jrue Holiday ⁰⁰He was drafted by Sixers in first round in 2009 and is one of the best two way guards in NBA

There is a lot of competition for him and Sixers may not have the draft ammunition pic.twitter.com/x2DjwMTYut

— John Clark (@JClarkNBCS) November 17, 2020

Interesting stuff. On one hand, he does help them in some ways (they desperately need halfcourt creation, for example, and he's even an okay shooter if even he's not great) but he's not the perfect fit for them. Possibly a leak to pressure Houston if they're interested in a Harden trade? ''Look, Rockets, we have other options'' kind of thing.

Wonder what kind of thing they'd be putting on the table if it's real though.

Edit: Just as a side note, there's a Sixers fan in the replies to that tweet arguing that Thybulle would be untouchable in a Jrue trade. If you've ever needed an example of fans over-valuing their own assets, there you go.

[Sleeper]

I?m hearing Sixers are very interested in & are trying to trade for Pelicans guard Jrue Holiday ⁰⁰He was drafted by Sixers in first round in 2009 and is one of the best two way guards in NBA

There is a lot of competition for him and Sixers may not have the draft ammunition pic.twitter.com/x2DjwMTYut

? John Clark (@JClarkNBCS) November 17, 2020

Interesting stuff. On one hand, he does help them in some ways (they desperately need halfcourt creation, for example, and he's even an okay shooter if even he's not great) but he's not the perfect fit for them. Possibly a leak to pressure Houston if they're interested in a Harden trade? ''Look, Rockets, we have other options'' kind of thing.

Wonder what kind of thing they'd be putting on the table if it's real though.

Edit: Just as a side note, there's a Sixers fan in the replies to that tweet arguing that Thybulle would be untouchable in a Jrue trade. If you've ever needed an example of fans over-valuing their own assets, there you go.

Is Josh Richardson no good?


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[Pelicanidae]

Is Josh Richardson no good?


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He's fine enough but he's nothing special and at 27 years old he's not really likely to take any big leaps. He's only shot at or above league average TS% once in his career, his AST/TOV% are basically the same which isn't great, doesn't really draw free throws, can't really create for others on ball very much. Okay defensively, most of the time.

[Pelicanidae]

The problem with a Sixers trade is that you look at their biggest contracts (The ones that match Jrue's, or close to it), and this is what you get:

Tobias Harris: No thank you
Al Horford: Very no thank you
Embiid: Sixers aren't doing that
Simmons: Sixers aren't doing that

So you end up having to look at their miscellaneous pieces because they don't have anything near the cap space to just absorb Jrue and leave us with tons of cap (as has been suggested as an option for other trades) and it just doesn't appear feasible.

[6warddude]

celtics get= jrue and miles turner

pacers get= gordon hayward and our #39 pick

pelicans get= kemba walker and #7 pick..

yall like?

[Sleeper]

How about this Celtics trade?

Pels trade: Holiday, Naw, 2022 first
Celtics trade: J. Brown, their three 2021 picks, and filler (if needed).


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[Pelicanidae]

How about this Celtics trade?

Pels trade: Holiday, Naw, 2022 first
Celtics trade: J. Brown, their three 2021 picks, and filler (if needed).


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One 2022 first is worth more than 3 mediocre 2020 picks. Not interested in that element of the deal.

[Pelicanidae]

Bucks sending Eric Bledsoe and George Hill and draft compensation to New Orleans, sources said. https://t.co/3K12F8WGI9

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) November 17, 2020

Wow

[kinglio21093]

Bucks sending Eric Bledsoe and George Hill and draft compensation to New Orleans, sources said. https://t.co/3K12F8WGI9

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) November 17, 2020

Wow

Good for Jrue, but my god what an awful return lmao.

[HornetGuru]

This can?t be real, has to be a 3 team trade right?

[Sleeper]

Where is Lonzo going?


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[Pelicanidae]

This can?t be real, has to be a 3 team trade right?

We don't know full details yet.

[Pelicanidae]

The Rockets are finalizing a trade to send Robert Covington to Portland for Trevor Ariza and 2020 first-round pick and 2021 protected first-round pick, sources tell ESPN.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) November 17, 2020

Great deal for Portland.

[Pelicanidae]

Where is Lonzo going?


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Possibly nowhere.

[luckyman]

Even with Etwaun not coming back and Jrue gone, you still have a mountain of guards. And you haven't even drafted yet.

Woj says the draft compensation is said to be "significant." From Milwaukee?

Like what???

[Pelicanidae]

Even with Etwaun not coming back and Jrue gone, you still have a mountain of guards. And you haven't even drafted yet.

Woj says the draft compensation is said to be "significant." From Milwaukee?

Like what???

Like

New Orleans also receives two future draft pick swaps from Milwaukee, along with three firsts, sources said. https://t.co/pZtkfvZkrD

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) November 17, 2020

The AD package.

[luckyman]

Like

New Orleans also receives two future draft pick swaps from Milwaukee, along with three firsts, sources said. https://t.co/pZtkfvZkrD

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) November 17, 2020

The AD package.

Three 1sts for Jrue Holiday? Well damn. Ok.

Made me choke.