Playoffs Thread

[Taker597]

Do you have anything that would indicate that it was reported incorrectly by the usual insiders? I believe Woj even reported the Knicks were not willing to part with much in the way of assets for AD. Unfortunately, we had no other real suitors than the Lakers given that AD and Klutch contaminated the waters.

AD did his best job ti sabotage our trade and get as little value for a top 5 could get. When Paul George gets a better trade out than AD. It's criminal.

[Pelicanidae]

https://www.change.org/p/nba-fans-ky...a-a9c397bf9ea9

lmfao

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

AD did his best job ti sabotage our trade and get as little value for a top 5 could get. When Paul George gets a better trade out than AD. It's criminal.

It was PG and KL.
OKC knew this and knew that the Clippers couldn't get Leonard without PG and made them pay.

[Pelicanidae]

It was PG and KL.
OKC knew this and knew that the Clippers couldn't get Leonard without PG and made them pay.

Exactly. People need to remember that that was not just a raw, assets-for-PG trade in a vacuum.

That trade was done precisely because it was the requirement to acquire Kawhi. Kawhi had told them he was not signing there unless they did it.

Therefore the trade was for PG and Kawhi both. Which makes it make a lot more sense.

[da ThRONe]

I don?t think it, I guarantee it.

Prior to Lebron going there (for Hollywood, not basketball reasons) nobody wanted to go to LA unless they didn?t have anywhere else to go (see Luol Deng). There is a reason that there was a drought for so long between the Showtime Lakers to Shaq/Kobe and Kobe to Lebron, nobody wants to go there. Now with Lebron there they can?t afford super stars unless those guys go there on the cheap (and we can see that none are willing to do that). Nothing about that front office or coaching staff gives me (or anyone else for that matter) that their operations aren?t held together by anything but gum, string, and Lebron?s knees. Nothing there exudes confidence past Lebron.

If you want to say that they will get a star to put next to AD need I remind you that stars didn?t come to New Orleans to play with him unless it was via trade.Nobody is going out of their way to team up with AD, and even if they did, they would have to go there via free agency as the Lakers? assets are tied up to the Pels. So putting a Superstar next to AD won?t he easy (unless Klutch will do the Lakers a solid and tank a players value). If AD doesn?t have a Super Star next to him he will be the New Orleans? version of AD, and while he might be a threat, he is hardly a guy you want to build a franchise around.

So yeah, I?m at a good place with those Laker picks, and would be fine if you pinned this post of me saying that 2 of those Laker picks will be lottery picks.

When did the Lakers stop being the marquee team of the league? LeBron is still top 3 and chose the Lakers when they had not even a star level player. Why is that you think? As I mentioned Bradley Beal just purchased a house out here in LA. Chris Paul still lives out here and the off season along with many other players. Kawhi won a championship in Toronto and left to be in the LA market. The Lakers won't have any problems attracting a superstar in free agency.

You are missing the details. No one went out of there way to team up with Davis in New Orleans. Just like no one went out of their way to team up with Paul in New Orleans. I love that city but it's not a market/team that will attract the cream of the crop. IMO it's less about the city and more about market size and team success. Hell no bodily's breaking their necks to get to Milwaukee to play with Antetokounmpo. Maybe the games greatest player couldn't attract any stars to Cleveland.

[UNO Gracias]

Notice you mentioned a lot of marquee players have homes in LA, but when given the chance to sign with the Marquee NBA franchise over the last 6 years, nobody rode to Gondor’s aid. Players will continue to buy homes there, that doesn’t mean that they will want to play for the Lakers. Heck, you pointed it out yourself, The Claw had the chance to go to LA and he took it by signing with the Clippers. Had he wanted to play for the Lakers he could have as well, but he didn’t. I’m just saying, if it wasn’t for a career in the entertainment business Lebron probably wouldn’t be there either. So yes, I feel very confident, nay, I guarantee that the picks the Lakers conveyed to the Pels will be lottery picks.

Ain’t nobody rushing to LA to go play with some Beta when Lebron retires, just like nobody rushed to New Orleans to play with him here.

[da ThRONe]

I don't believe this is accurate.

Firstly, Lebron has never been the type of guy who signs smaller deals to free up space for a 3rd star. There are few things you can say have been as constant throughout Lebron's career as his desire to maximise his income. If there is any possible way for him to get LA to give him another max, he will get them to give him another max and that's what he will sign. Lebron is not doing a Tim Duncan discount; there has never been any indication in his entire career that he would be willing to do such a thing.

Secondly, you say that they'll transition to the next core group by then. My question is, where is this group supposed to come from? They can't trade for promising young players: they have nobody under contract long term and no picks. They can't draft those young players, they have no picks. They're not getting those guys flocking to them in FA because they have no money and, as Lebron ages over the next few seasons, there's no real reason to go there; players don't flock to play with AD, as we've seen.

You can argue that maybe players will just go there because it's LA, but then you have to ask why nobody was doing that for the last 7 years before Lebron showed up. If players want to go to a destination city to live the high life, they're just going to go to Miami, which at least has some good young prospects and has been consistently good for years.

Thirdly, while we've seen freeing up cap space happen, there are circumstances where that's harder than usual. It's easier to free up cap if you have a few overpaid middle-tier players and you can attach picks to move them, or you can can stretch contracts, or whatever. It's very difficult to do that when you have two separate guys earning over $40m a year: we call this the Westbrook/Harden dilemma.

Actually LeBron left money on the table when he formed the big 3 in Miami. All 3 players did. While it wasn't a significant amount if he didn't it would not have been possible. Which shows awareness on Lebron's part. That was prime James as well. As it relates to basketball I'd say LeBron is one of the most knowledgeable players to every play the game. I highly doubt as he chases greatness he'll hold up the Lakers cap situation just to make a point. Because clearly he doesn't need the money.

That star player will come from free agency. As I mentioned of now James is the only player signed(player option) after next season. I think it's a far gone conclusion they re-sign Davis. It's said Davis will play out the option year next year. That will give the Lakers the ability to sign players and go over the cap to extend Davis. Money isn't an object to the Lakers they are only limited by the cap. Having Davis' rights will go a long way into avoiding the cap limits.

People keep saying nobody wanted to go there before LeBron. Completely leaving out that LeBron wanted to go there and Anthony just forced his way there. Seriously the logical dodging going on here sometimes. In the past 2 season 2 top 20 players either via free agency or forced trade just chose the Lakers. This isn't even bringing up Kawhi who just left a title team to go out to LA. Some of the argument here are so disingenous. When was the last time a top 50 player choose us?

What terrible contract are the Lakers sitting on? Green at 15mil has been an overpay but that's expiring after next year when the big free agents are available. What's going to stop the Lakers from signing potentially Giannis, PG13, Kawhi, Griffin, Paul, Lowry, Hayward, Drummond, Holiday, DeRozen, Aldridge? Some of these guys won't even command a max contract or may even leave money on the table to get a ring in LA. That's just the top of the 2021 list. The Lakers would have to completely strike out on two (maybe 3)consecutive free agency classes, and have LeBron fade significantly for those picks to yield anything other than late 1st.

[da ThRONe]

Notice you mentioned a lot of marquee players have homes in LA, but when given the chance to sign with the Marquee NBA franchise over the last 6 years, nobody rode to Gondor’s aid. Players will continue to buy homes there, that doesn’t mean that they will want to play for the Lakers. Heck, you pointed it out yourself, The Claw had the chance to go to LA and he took it by signing with the Clippers. Had he wanted to play for the Lakers he could have as well, but he didn’t. I’m just saying, if it wasn’t for a career in the entertainment business Lebron probably wouldn’t be there either. So yes, I feel very confident, nay, I guarantee that the picks the Lakers conveyed to the Pels will be lottery picks.

Ain’t nobody rushing to LA to go play with some Beta when Lebron retires, just like nobody rushed to New Orleans to play with him here.

Remember when LeBron James signed with the Lakers? Then you remember when Anthony Davis forced a trade to that same Lakers team? Why are people acting like this didn't just happen. Forget what happened with the Lakers the past couple of years when nobody wanted to play with a fading Kobe Bryant and Mitch Kupchak set money on fire by signing Deng and Movgov. Kobe is gone(rip) and Mitch is no longer running the show.

[UNO Gracias]

Yeah, Mitch is gone, and in his place is Rob Pelinka, and in the bench you have Frank Vogel. The Lakers making the finals is more a testament to how amazing Lebron is than how ready people are to join the Lakers. Lebron went there so that he could get more fully into the entertainment industry, they just so happened to also have a basketball team he could play on as he sought out entertainment opportunities. This isn’t some “the Lakers are back” moment. Heck, even there bloggers admit that the future is far from clear as to the direction of the team (they will gladly admit that Lebron is good, and they will ride him as long as his legs don’t fall off).

Anthony Davis and Klutch tanked his trade value all so he could get to LA and get a part in Space Jam. He had to switch agents before he could remember that LA was a city.

[Pelicanidae]

It's been pretty much accepted by the vast majority of people that Lebron went to LA for business and lifestyle reasons, rather than because he had any great personal love of the Lakers. Why you keep pretending that he was lured there by the mystique of the Lakers rather than making a calculated business move that the vast majority of lesser players never even have to think about is beyond me.

AD went there specifically for Lebron.

When Lebron is 37 and the Lakers have no cap space, they will not be signing all the big names in basketball. I just don't think that's even a controversial thing to say.

[da ThRONe]

It's been pretty much accepted by the vast majority of people that Lebron went to LA for business and lifestyle reasons, rather than because he had any great personal love of the Lakers. Why you keep pretending that he was lured there by the mystique of the Lakers rather than making a calculated business move that the vast majority of lesser players never even have to think about is beyond me.

AD went there specifically for Lebron.

When Lebron is 37 and the Lakers have no cap space, they will not be signing all the big names in basketball. I just don't think that's even a controversial thing to say.

You are making my case for me. Whether it be business or the "love of the Lakers" he had 30 teams available and he chose the Lakers. Not to mention he could have pick the Clippers if all he wanted was LA they were in a much better position to be winners at the time.

So nobody wants to play for the Lakers expect for S. O'Neal, K. Malone, G. Payton, S. Nash, D. Howard(in his prime), C.Paul, L. James, A. Davis. Got it.

When LeBron is 37 the Lakers will literally only have LeBron under contract. How TF is that no cap space?<--- real question.

[Pelicanidae]

You are making my case for me. Whether it be business or the "love of the Lakers" he had 30 teams available and he chose the Lakers. Not to mention he could have pick the Clippers if all he wanted was LA they were in a much better position to be winners at the time.

So nobody wants to play for the Lakers expect for S. O'Neal, K. Malone, G. Payton, S. Nash, D. Howard(in his prime), C.Paul, L. James, A. Davis. Got it.

When LeBron is 37 the Lakers will literally only have LeBron under contract. How TF is that no cap space?<--- real question.

Me: Why would you assume that stars will flock to the Lakers when nobody signed there for a solid 7 or 8 years, and the only reason anyone eventually did is cause they were shooting a movie?

You: Aha! But what about all these people that wanted to go there 10+ years ago? Gotcha.

[UNO Gracias]

Wait, so when Lebron is 37 the Lakers will only have him on the roster? What are they going to do with AD? They will probably resign him, and when that happens there goes their cap space.

[Pelicanidae]

Wait, so when Lebron is 37 the Lakers will only have him on the roster? What are they going to do with AD? They will probably resign him, and when that happens there goes their cap space.

I believe the logic that da THRONE is using is that AD will opt in next season, hit free agency, during which time the Lakers can sign other people with his salary not technically on the books, and then re-sign him after using bird rights to go over the cap. I don't actually know if this would even work or not because I forget how cap-holds work, but I think that's the logic da THRONE is using.

The issue with this is that I doubt LA will want to risk AD entering FA, and will probably just offer him the largest extension they can manage next season while he's under contract and lock him up early. This will completely kill that avenue of acquiring cap.

[da ThRONe]

Me: Why would you assume that stars will flock to the Lakers when nobody signed there for a solid 7 or 8 years, and the only reason anyone eventually did is cause they were shooting a movie?

You: Aha! But what about all these people that wanted to go there 10+ years ago? Gotcha.

I already told you nobody wanted to be Kobe's teammate. Especially the aging Kobe. That's not the case with LeBron. Management completely missed handled free agency and gave away big money to bad players and they never recovered. That can happen and yes superstars don't want to go to bad teams. But what you are failing to acknowledge is the Lakers are no longer a bad team. They have arguably the game best player and another all NBA player on the team.

You talk about me bringing up 10 years ago, but you're refusing the accept the Lakers are about to be World champs. Are you seriously telling me that will have zero impact on players especially the top free agents of the next 3 classes?

[Pelicanidae]

I already told you nobody wanted to be Kobe's teammate. Especially the aging Kobe. That's not the case with LeBron. Management completely missed handled free agency and gave away big money to bad players and they never recovered. That can happen and yes superstars don't want to go to bad teams. But what you are failing to acknowledge is the Lakers are no longer a bad team. They have arguably the game best player and another all NBA player on the team.

You talk about me bringing up 10 years ago, but you're refusing the accept the Lakers are about to be World champs. Are you seriously telling me that will have zero impact on players especially the top free agents of the next 3 classes?

Your entire premise relies on the assumption that Lebron will sign for a budget-friendly deal and that the Lakers won't extend AD but will instead wait for him to hit FA so that they can use the cap up before re-signing him. There is very little reason to assume either of these things are going to be true, let alone both.

I'm not saying it will have ''zero impact'' on the next 3 classes of free agents. I'm telling you that this upcoming class of free agents isn't particularly good and the Lakers are capped out so it will not matter this year what that perception is, and then I'm telling you that unless those very big ifs happen as mentioned above, the Lakers still will not have the cap to sign anyone major in the years following that.

The Lakers Mystique doesn't allow you to flout the cap rules, I'm sorry. I know that runs contrary to this idea that Lebron and AD are about to pick up Giannis and embark on a 5-peat or whatever, but it's true.

[Pelicanidae]

As a side note, just to get back on the playoffs that are currently happening:

It's so funny how bad Kendrick Nunn is versus the narrative that's been built around him this year. He's a 25 year old rookie whose entire redeeming strength was that he allowed Goran Dragic to get some rest, and people really tried to built a ROTY challenger narrative around it. Amazing.

[cajunsmike]

When did the Lakers stop being the marquee team of the league? LeBron is still top 3 and choose the Lakers when they had not even a star level player. Why is that you think? As I mentioned Bradley Beal just purchased a house out here in LA. Chris Paul still lives out here and the off season along with many other players. Kawhi won a championship in Toronto and left to be in the LA market. The Lakers won't have any problems attracting a superstar in free agency.

You are missing the details. No one went out of there way to team up with Davis in New Orleans. Just like no one went out of their way to team up with Paul in New Orleans. I love that city but it's not a market/team that will attract the cream of the crop. IMO it's less about the city and more about market size and team success. Hell no bodies breaking their necks to get to Milwaukee to play with Antetokounmpo. Maybe the games greatest player couldn't attract any stars to Cleveland.

A league in which 25 teams serve as 5 teams is not a sustainable business model. World is moving to a stage where people care about their team and ONLY their team. This situation is one reason why TV ratings are down. If people want to watch guys play with their buddies, they can go to their local YMCA.

[AusPel]

Exactly. People need to remember that that was not just a raw, assets-for-PG trade in a vacuum.

That trade was done precisely because it was the requirement to acquire Kawhi. Kawhi had told them he was not signing there unless they did it.

Therefore the trade was for PG and Kawhi both. Which makes it make a lot more sense.

Actually, it's pretty unprecedented that one team can acquire a haul of assets equal to two star players when they're only giving up one.

Historic levels of leverage that OKC enjoyed

[As I See It]

The King 'be class-less' (and one of the most prolific whiners of all time)!!!

[Pelicanidae]

Actually, it's pretty unprecedented that one team can acquire a haul of assets equal to two star players when they're only giving up one.

Historic levels of leverage that OKC enjoyed

Whether there's precedent or not is hardly the point. If one of the five best players in basketball comes to your GM and says ''I will absolutely sign with you if you pull the trigger on this trade'', that GM has good reason to make that trade. Even if it's a big one. Because they're not making it for the trade itself, necessarily, they're making it for the trade plus that top five player.

That makes complete sense regardless of whether or not there's precedent.

[Pelicanidae]

Also love this whole ''Jimmy Butler is an anti-analytics player, analytics hate him'' narrative that's being pushed.

Analytics love Jimmy Butler. I know that for a lot of people analytics are just ''shoot threes'', but that's generally just because people don't know what they're talking about. Butler puts a ton of pressure on the rim and gets a ton of free throws (his FTr is absurd), and is a fantastic defender. He's top 10 in 5 year RAPM, and was 12th in PIPM this year.

[AusPel]

Whether there's precedent or not is hardly the point. If one of the five best players in basketball comes to your GM and says ''I will absolutely sign with you if you pull the trigger on this trade'', that GM has good reason to make that trade. Even if it's a big one. Because they're not making it for the trade itself, necessarily, they're making it for the trade plus that top five player.

That makes complete sense regardless of whether or not there's precedent.

But why did OKC get to benefit? Did they hold the Clippers over the barrell because the knew they were trading out 2 stars effectively?

[AusPel]

Also love this whole ''Jimmy Butler is an anti-analytics player, analytics hate him'' narrative that's being pushed.

Analytics love Jimmy Butler. I know that for a lot of people analytics are just ''shoot threes'', but that's generally just because people don't know what they're talking about. Butler puts a ton of pressure on the rim and gets a ton of free throws (his FTr is absurd), and is a fantastic defender. He's top 10 in 5 year RAPM, and was 12th in PIPM this year.

I didn't realise that was a common narrative against him. The main one I heard is that he was a hard ****** teammate and to lesser extent a bad three point shooter.

Analytics should never be the sole synonym for 'a good three point shooter'

[Pelicanidae]

But why did OKC get to benefit? Did they hold the Clippers over the barrell because the knew they were trading out 2 stars effectively?

Obviously I can't say for sure because I wasn't in on the negotiations. Maybe Presti got the impression the Clips were desperate, and applied the pressure. Maybe Presti just high-balled them as a negotiation tactic and a desperate Clippers team accepted it. No idea.

But that reason (the double acquisition) is the explanation for why the Clippers would make that move.