Non-NBA Boycott discussion

[luckyman]

Agree I'm not sure what the ask is in connection with the boycott and it seems unlikely it's anything that can be enacted in a short term, even if everyone agreed to it, which they probably won't. If it's about standing up and being heard, I understand and support that effort.

There is a larger issue though that everyone has to to grapple with. Police shootings of unarmed suspects hasn't changed much in the past five years. Stats show there are about 10 million arrests annually in America (roughly). Of those arrests about 1,000 end up in a shooting by police. Of those shootings about 50-60 involve unarmed suspects and less than half of those shootings involve African Americans.

Whats the relative percentage of unarmed police shootings of African Americans relative to the African American general population? It need to be far less than "less than half."

If it's not, then there are more shootings of unarmed African Americans than there should be.

Plus, this is not just about unarmed shootings. African Americans are far more likely to be pulled over and searched than anyone else, even though more contraband is found with white drivers than black.

None of this stuff is new. Riots in the 1960s were all about this type of uneven treatment from every level of the judicial system.

This is the stuff that needs to change:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZFZ...27sUniteNow%21

[luckyman]

Management is in an enviable position by default:

* Broadcasting Revenue has to take a massive hit (especially individual markets)
* The image of the NBA player is suffering nationally (maybe not in China...aahh, yes, remember China)
* They allowed the players to become social billboards
* They were kicked in the teeth after their goodwill gesture to re-start the season by this nonsense.
* They incurred mega-expense to ensure the well-being of the players
* Though I believe the COVID scare will cease to exist on November 3rd, there still exist uncertainty as to the disposition of the 2020/21 season.


The players are going to squawk when team caps decline because of fan apathy (decreasing value of broadcasting rights). Translations: Players' salaries are going to be effected and not for the better.

I would be quite interested (if anyone knows) in what the status of ticket renewals are for next season throughout the league.

Player image is suffering to who?

And this bubble was the NBA's "goodwill gesture"? On what planet was this just a nice gesture by the NBA to restart the season?? What are you talking about?

[As I See It]

Player image is suffering to who?

And this bubble was the NBA's "goodwill gesture"? On what planet was this just a nice gesture by the NBA to restart the season?? What are you talking about?

To everyone who resents the kneeling nonsense during the anthem or the social billboards on the backs of players' jerseys.

It was a costly gesture that lost the owner's mega money to try to pull off. Staying dark would have saved management millions of dollars. This Orlando Bubble thing is a financial drain to whom?

[donato]

To everyone who resents the kneeling nonsense during the anthem or the social billboards on the backs of players' jerseys.

It was a costly gesture that lost the owner's mega money to try to pull off. Staying dark would have saved management millions of dollars. This Orlando Bubble thing is a financial drain to whom?

It is interesting to speculate about which owners truly care about the causes the players are trumpeting and which ones are only interested in the money. Frankly I think anyone who is bent out of shape over kneeling or the jersey stuff can just ******** off and die. The world would certainly be a better place.

[luckyman]

To everyone who resents the kneeling nonsense during the anthem or the social billboards on the backs of players' jerseys.

It was a costly gesture that lost the owner's mega money to try to pull off. Staying dark would have saved management millions of dollars. This Orlando Bubble thing is a financial drain to whom?

For one, who cares about people angry over kneeling and the "billboards"? I don't. People criticized Tommy Smith and John Carlos at the '68 olympics. Today they are looked at by most as strong heroic figures.

The right thing isn't always the most popular. Nevermind all those that agree with the players and the NBA.

Secondly, the NBA didn't restart the league as some goodwill gesture. The owners were more desperate to restart this season than the top players were. Hence some of the players stayed home and didn't even participate.

So it seems you do not know what you are talking about. At all.

[As I See It]

It is interesting to speculate about which owners truly care about the causes the players are trumpeting and which ones are only interested in the money. Frankly I think anyone who is bent out of shape over kneeling or the jersey stuff can just ******** off and die. The world would certainly be a better place.

If you were single-minded you probably would say something like that.

BTW: I don't begrudge anybody's right to speak. I only mention that there is a 'cause and effect' issue that must be entertained when you are in the public eye.

[donato]

Let the millionaire NBA players worry about their finances from their actions. Do you think maybe they're aware of this and they would prefer to be on the right side of history and try to contribute to making social change that will improve their lives and their children's and grandchildren's lives?

[boardtown]

I think what's also interesting is that going on a wildcat strike is against the terms of the CBA. I very much doubt ownership is pleased by this, whatever their public statements might imply.

Similarly, you had the actual CBA set to expire in September anyway (iirc) although it's been pushed back due to the bubble and whatnot.

I wonder how this will impact the next CBA.

I am glad folks are looking at this from the perspective of labor. This is what Martin Luther King, Jr. had to say to the 1961 AFL-CIO convention:

"Our needs are identical with labor's needs — decent wages, fair working conditions, livable housing, old age security, health and welfare measures, conditions in which families can grow, have education for their children and respect in the community. That is why Negroes support labor's demands and fight laws which curb labor."

Of course the billionaires who own these teams are quite hostile to labor activism within their "day jobs" of being industrialists, media moguls, automobile dealers, etc. I expect them to try to put the clamps down on the players as best they can to discourage broader labor activism while paying lip service to civil rights activism.

[As I See It]

Let the millionaire NBA players worry about their finances from their actions. Do you think maybe they're aware of this and they would prefer to be on the right side of history and try to contribute to making social change that will improve their lives and their children's and grandchildren's lives?

Far be it for me to worry about their million dollar bank accounts. That's their business and I don't pretend to be worried about their financial well-being (and good for them!!!). I only point out the obvious as it pertains to the upcoming CBA negotiations as my original post suggests and who I think holds the cards. That small fact might be lost to anyone with a one tract mind.

[new city champ]

Whats the relative percentage of unarmed police shootings of African Americans relative to the African American general population? It need to be far less than "less than half."

If it's not, then there are more shootings of unarmed African Americans than there should be.

Plus, this is not just about unarmed shootings. African Americans are far more likely to be pulled over and searched than anyone else, even though more contraband is found with white drivers than black.

None of this stuff is new. Riots in the 1960s were all about this type of uneven treatment from every level of the judicial system.

This is the stuff that needs to change:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZFZ...27sUniteNow%21

A database developed by Harvard and the Washington Post of police shootings since 2015 shows:

-Police on duty shot 5,587 people over the past five-and-a-half years. The rate is pretty steady year in and year out;

-Of that number, 2,528 where caucasian, 1,318 were african american, 920 were hispanic, the rest were an other ethnic group or unidentified.

-Of that number 5,340 were male, 246 female.

-Of that number, 5,231 were armed, 356 were unarmed.

-Of those shot who were unarmed, 146 were caucasian, 125 were african american, 63 were hispanic, the balance were another group or unknown.

-The majority of shootings happened in cities. The three states with highest rates of police shootings were Alaska, New Mexico and Oklahoma.

-More than 95% of the persons shot were male.

-The rate of persons shot by police is far higher among african americans, at about 32 per million of population. Hispanics were about 24 per million and caucasions about 13 per million of population.

This data is far from ideal, but it's at least a place to start a meaningful discussion.

[donato]

Far be it for me to worry about their million dollar bank accounts. That's their business and I don't pretend to be worried about their financial well-being (and good for them!!!). I only point out the obvious as it pertains to the upcoming CBA negotiations as my original post suggests and who I think holds the cards. That small fact might be lost to anyone with a one tract mind.

Maybe we should contact the player's association and refer them to this thread so you can enlighten them then.

[Pelicanidae]

-The rate of persons shot by police is far higher among african americans, at about 32 per million of population. Hispanics were about 24 per million and caucasions about 13 per million of population.

This data is far from ideal, but it's at least a place to start a meaningful discussion.

So well over double the rate of white people. Gotcha.

[pr1840]

So well over double the rate of white people. Gotcha.

True and certainly not acceptable. But you have to look at the whole picture - African Americans are 5 times more likely to commit violent crime in the US. Using the FBI’s 2017 numbers, 6,444 murder offenders were African Americans and 5,125 murder offenders were Caucasian. This equates to 156 murder offenders per million of population for African Americans and 32 per million of population for Caucasians. When that is taken into account, the police shooting numbers are more understandable.

[new city champ]

So well over double the rate of white people. Gotcha.

Yes, as I said, far higher. About 2.5 times the rate. Of course, men are shot by police at about 22 times the rate of women. Is this in an of itself sufficent evidence of police prejudice against men or are there possibly other/additional factors contributing to the discrepancy? I doubt you are one who assumes correlation automatically equals causation.

[luckyman]

True and certainly not acceptable. But you have to look at the whole picture - African Americans are 5 times more likely to commit violent crime in the US. Using the FBI’s 2017 numbers, 6,444 murder offenders were African Americans and 5,125 murder offenders were Caucasian. This equates to 156 murder offenders per million of population for African Americans and 32 per million of population for Caucasians. When that is taken into account, the police shooting numbers are more understandable.

Those numbers you quote aren't "committ" numbers. You'd have to follow each murder all the way through trial. Those are "arrest" numbers or some other metric which doesn't prove innocence or guilt. And the most total murder arrest numbers I've ever seen were around 5,000. Using your numbers, that's almost 12,000 murders in 1 year. Where are you finding this?

Secondly, we are discussing the killing of UNARMED African Americans. So you can quote those numbers you have all day, but that doesn't justify what happened to Philando Castille or John Crawford or Walter Scott. Those murder numbers still don't even equate to 1% of the total adult black population. So murders do not describe the black population and is a sorry excuse to try and justify what is going on.

And lastly, if you want to look at the "whole picture", qualified African Americans are more likely to be turned down for conventional mortgages to buy a house, have the highest unemployment rate, more likely (WHILE QUALIFIED) to be turned down for a small business loan, more likely to be arrested for marijuana (even though whites use and sell it at the same or higher rates).

And, to be frank, the US government created these black ghettos where too many of these police interactions take place. The US government used tax dollars in the 50s and 60s to help white families buy homes in new suburbs, but denied this to TAX PAYING black families, whom would be stuck renting in declining inner cities. Even those that still tried to buy homes had to do so under basically loan shark terms, which robbed black families of billions of dollars.

Here is an example of how it happened in Chicago back then, where lots of these shootings occur today. You think these things aren't related? I mean if you really want to talk about the whole story.

https://www.npr.org/local/309/2019/0...go-of-billions

[Pelicanidae]

Yes, as I said, far higher. About 2.5 times the rate. Of course, men are shot by police at about 22 times the rate of women. Is this in an of itself sufficent evidence of police prejudice against men or are there possibly other/additional factors contributing to the discrepancy? I doubt you are one who assumes correlation automatically equals causation.

There are, in fact, cultural and social factors that influence both the frequency of crime committed by men in the US, as well as the types of crime men are likely to commit, which contribute to why men tend to be shot more than women by the police.

These factors are arguable, of course, in certain ways when we talk about why the police shoot black people at a far higher rate than white people, but the social and cultural factors surrounding black people in America tend to also be the result of racism, historic and modern.

[Pelicanidae]

True and certainly not acceptable. But you have to look at the whole picture - African Americans are 5 times more likely to commit violent crime in the US. Using the FBI’s 2017 numbers, 6,444 murder offenders were African Americans and 5,125 murder offenders were Caucasian. This equates to 156 murder offenders per million of population for African Americans and 32 per million of population for Caucasians. When that is taken into account, the police shooting numbers are more understandable.

One of the things you learn when you look into crime and police statistics is basically this: you find crime where you want to find it.

If you become the police chief of a department, and you are told that violent crime is more likely to be committed in majority black areas than white (because the statistics showed this over the last 5 years, for example) you might well decide that the sensible thing to do is therefore to pay more attention to these areas because you believe that is where crime is more likely to occur. You schedule more patrols there, allocate more resources to officers dealing with those things, prioritise calls from those areas, etc. Not out of any conscious racism, but because you are trying to be a sensible person who allocates the resources where they are needed, as far as you can see.

12 months later, when you check the crime statistics, what you will find is an increase in crime rates in black majority areas. Is this because black people suddenly started committing more crime in the last year? No, it's because you put more money, effort, time, and resources into looking for crime in majority black areas, so you found it. Cases that would often go unreported, or common minor crimes that nobody would ever notice, are now being picked up more frequently specifically because you went looking for it. Thats important to keep in mind.

It's also important to consider that violent crime tends to be correlated with poverty, and black people are more likely than white people in the US to be on lower incomes, living in less affluent areas, etc. This makes sense: muggers, for example, tend not to be people with comfortable bank balances. The reasons that black people in the US tend to live in less affluent areas and on lower outcomes compared to white people are historical and material, and go back well into slavery. That's part of why this discrepancy in the numbers tends to show up.

[pr1840]

Those numbers you quote aren't "committ" numbers. You'd have to follow each murder all the way through trial. Those are "arrest" numbers or some other metric which doesn't prove innocence or guilt. And the most total murder arrest numbers I've ever seen were around 5,000. Using your numbers, that's almost 12,000 murders in 1 year. Where are you finding this?

Secondly, we are discussing the killing of UNARMED African Americans. So you can quote those numbers you have all day, but that doesn't justify what happened to Philando Castille or John Crawford or Walter Scott. Those murder numbers still don't even equate to 1% of the total adult black population. So murders do not describe the black population and is a sorry excuse to try and justify what is going on.

And lastly, if you want to look at the "whole picture", qualified African Americans are more likely to be turned down for conventional mortgages to buy a house, have the highest unemployment rate, more likely (WHILE QUALIFIED) to be turned down for a small business loan, more likely to be arrested for marijuana (even though whites use and sell it at the same or higher rates).

And, to be frank, the US government created these black ghettos where too many of these police interactions take place. The US government used tax dollars in the 50s and 60s to help white families buy homes in new suburbs, but denied this to TAX PAYING black families, whom would be stuck renting in declining inner cities. Even those that still tried to buy homes had to do so under basically loan shark terms, which robbed black families of billions of dollars.

Here is an example of how it happened in Chicago back then, where lots of these shootings occur today. You think these things aren't related? I mean if you really want to talk about the whole story.

https://www.npr.org/local/309/2019/0...go-of-billions

There are significantly more than 12,000 murders committed in the US per year. And I’m not disagreeing that disparate poverty rates are the source of the problem. But that has nothing to do with the the job that the police on the street have to do. And, unfortunately, the violent crime numbers tell the police that African Americans are 5 times for likely to commit violent crimes. Despite that, African Americans are only 2.5 times more likely to be the victim of a police-involved shooting. Again, not saying that it an acceptable number. But it is understandable and if you were a police office in a major urban area in the US, you might have an even better understanding.

[luckyman]

There are significantly more than 12,000 murders committed in the US per year. And I’m not disagreeing that disparate poverty rates are the source of the problem. But that has nothing to do with the the job that the police on the street have to do. And, unfortunately, the violent crime numbers tell the police that African Americans are 5 times for likely to commit violent crimes. Despite that, African Americans are only 2.5 times more likely to be the victim of a police-involved shooting. Again, not saying that it an acceptable number. But it is understandable and if you were a police office in a major urban area in the US, you might have an even better understanding.

If there are significantly more than 12,000 murders in the US per year, then show me. I'll listen is you have a source.

But regardless, police officers work the areas they live. Some of these areas of these unarmed shootings do not have high murder rates, not even among African Americans. Even in a high murder rate city like New Orleans, you haven't heard about someone being shot by police unarmed in a LONG time. So you are trying to create this causation that probably doesn't exist. Nobody is rioting about obvious criminals, in the act of committing a serious crime, that get shot by police. It is these unarmed situations that can obviously be de-escalated, but aren't. Then no arrest is being made.

And these numbers you quote completely ignores that some of these officers are simply white supremacists regardless. The murder rate could be 0 and they'd still be overly aggressive towards African Americans. These bias studies show that this is undeniable. Then you look at some of these cops backgrounds and uncover some of their text/social messages, and it's obvious it has NOTHING to do with these stats you quote.

So just stop it.

[pr1840]

If there are significantly more than 12,000 murders in the US per year, then show me. I'll listen is you have a source.

But regardless, police officers work the areas they live. Some of these areas of these unarmed shootings do not have high murder rates, not even among African Americans. Even in a high murder rate city like New Orleans, you haven't heard about someone being shot by police unarmed in a LONG time. So you are trying to create this causation that probably doesn't exist. Nobody is rioting about obvious criminals, in the act of committing a serious crime, that get shot by police. It is these unarmed situations that can obviously be de-escalated, but aren't. Then no arrest is being made.

And these numbers you quote completely ignores that some of these officers are simply white supremacists regardless. The murder rate could be 0 and they'd still be overly aggressive towards African Americans. These bias studies show that this is undeniable. Then you look at some of these cops backgrounds and uncover some of their text/social messages, and it's obvious it has NOTHING to do with these stats you quote.

So just stop it.

Easy to chalk it up to cops are white supremacists or racists while ignoring the numbers. Cops are human. Some have racial biases, most probably do not. Easy way for a person of any race not get shot - comply with police directives.

[new city champ]

There are, in fact, cultural and social factors that influence both the frequency of crime committed by men in the US, as well as the types of crime men are likely to commit, which contribute to why men tend to be shot more than women by the police.


These factors are arguable, of course, in certain ways when we talk about why the police shoot black people at a far higher rate than white people, but the social and cultural factors surrounding black people in America tend to also be the result of racism, historic and modern.

Yes, but I'd add biological and that males of all ethnicities around the world are more prone to risky and violent behavior which generates contact with law enforcement and, inevitably, more violent interactions.
[I]
It's certainly true that the long disreputable legacy of discrimination against African Americans has produced a host of injustices and inequities in our society, one of which is inequitable treatment by the criminal justice system. It is also true that you can convincingly correlate the number of police shootings of unarmed suspects with zip codes where there are high levels of violent crime and assaults with deadly weapons. America is awash in firearms. Police operating in areas of high violent crime where offenders may well be armed are on edge and apt to apply deadly force too readily. I think enhanced police training in de-escalating conflicts and the use of force, real regulation of firearms, increased use of first responders trained to deal with domestic disputes and mental illness and other reforms can have a real effect and change the dynamic between police and communities they supposedly serve. But you are still going to have incidents of excessive force by police and I think you have to have some perspective on the level of danger posed by police violence. On average about 25-30 unarmed African Americans are shot by police each year (as are about 50-60 white americans). That's too many on both counts. But in terms of threats to life its hundreds of times less deadly than everyday gun violence which seems to inspire far less public outcry and protest.

[luckyman]

Easy to chalk it up to cops are white supremacists or racists while ignoring the numbers. Cops are human. Some have racial biases, most probably do not. Easy way for a person of any race not get shot - comply with police directives.

I asked you to provice your source. You're not doing it.

It is easy to chalk it up to cops being white supremacists because we have documented case after case that they were. Caught using derogatory language towards blacks, caught planting drugs on blacks, caught being card carrying members of the KKK even. This isn't "ignoring numbers", it's an American fact.

Now tell me, are both you and Mr New City Champ actually trying to use your "numbers" to justify pure untrained nonsense like in this video? Are you really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFY...nel=News19WLTX

[Pelicanidae]

Easy to chalk it up to cops are white supremacists or racists while ignoring the numbers. Cops are human. Some have racial biases, most probably do not. Easy way for a person of any race not get shot - comply with police directives.

"Some have racial biases, most probably do not."

If you are raised in a white supremacist society, it is impossible to avoid being socialised in a way influenced by white supremacy. And even if you personally manage to avoid being an overt racist, that does not change the fact that the police are institutionally racist, and the law is biased against people of colour also.

If you are a police officer in the US, you agree to serve the law. And the law is racist. Therefore you agree to uphold racist law. That means even if you're a nice person on an interpersonal level, you are structurally engaged in racism.

[pr1840]

Yes, but I'd add biological and that males of all ethnicities around the world are more prone to risky and violent behavior which generates contact with law enforcement and, inevitably, more violent interactions.
[I]
It's certainly true that the long disreputable legacy of discrimination against African Americans has produced a host of injustices and inequities in our society, one of which is inequitable treatment by the criminal justice system. It is also true that you can convincingly correlate the number of police shootings of unarmed suspects with zip codes where there are high levels of violent crime and assaults with deadly weapons. America is awash in firearms. Police operating in areas of high violent crime where offenders may well be armed are on edge and apt to apply deadly force too readily. I think enhanced police training in de-escalating conflicts and the use of force, real regulation of firearms, increased use of first responders trained to deal with domestic disputes and mental illness and other reforms can have a real effect and change the dynamic between police and communities they supposedly serve. But you are still going to have incidents of excessive force by police and I think you have to have some perspective on the level of danger posed by police violence. On average about 25-30 unarmed African Americans are shot by police each year (as are about 50-60 white americans). That's too many on both counts. But in terms of threats to life its hundreds of times less deadly than everyday gun violence which seems to inspire far less public outcry and protest.

Bingo. Social outcry is focused in the wrong place. NYC went so far as to significantly defund the police and crime rates skyrocketed. More focus should be on the out of control gun violence in this country. And the BLM movement doesn’t seem to focus much on that (probably because 90% of African American victims are killed by other African Americans). Police are an easy target but are far far from the largest part of the problem.

[luckyman]

Bingo. Social outcry is focused in the wrong place. NYC went so far as to significantly defund the police and crime rates skyrocketed. More focus should be on the out of control gun violence in this country. And the BLM movement doesn’t seem to focus much on that (probably because 90% of African American victims are killed by other African Americans). Police are an easy target but are far far from the largest part of the problem.

When did NYC defund police and crime rates skyrocket? You keep saying things with no source or timeline or anything.

What percent of white people are killed by other whites?

So ignoring ALL the core causes that have been laid out and you have obviously ignored, why is gun violence out of control? What is the cause of that?

Do your stats justify that shooting I linked?