Jrue Holliday is everyone's "missing piece"

[Pelicanidae]

I was more pointing out that Denver would not trade MPJ.

Eh I think they would in some circumstances. Depends on the deal: maybe not that one, but I hardly think MPJ is untouchable.

You have to think, he's not old but he's also not super super young (he's 22), so it's not like he's some unknown commodity 18 year old where everyone wonders what he'll be in 3 or 4 years: he's at the end of that 3 or 4 years. That's obviously not to say he can't grow still, he obviously can, but it is to say that you expect a player at this point to be demonstrating the sort of skillset they'll be refining going forwards.

For MPJ, right now that's this:

Pros
- Still relatively young at only 22
- Good shooter, especially for height: 42% this year, although admittedly on fairly low volume.
- Can create his own shot off the dribble. He's a decent cutter as well, and he shoots well off the catch, so he's not required to be on ball which helps with offensive versatility, but the ability to create for himself is valuable.

Cons
- Is legitimately one of the worst big man defenders in the league. Obviously he's young but he moves with extreme stiffness and has a severe lack of fluidity that might never improve. The reason it might next improve is:
- He has a long history of fairly catastrophic injury. Not only did he have to have lower back surgery before making it to the NBA, but he also sat out his rookie year for another back surgery. Two back surgeries by 22 is not a great sign, and it's probably the cause of his serious movement problems on defense. His entire family is made of glass, actually: his brother Jontay tore his right ACL twice before making it to the NBA, and both his sisters retired from sports due to leg injuries.
- Cannot/will not pass. Major decision making issues, very little feel for opportunities for other people. Higher TOV% than AST% this year and 7.9%AST is really really poor anyway.

If someone comes along and offers you a legitimately very good NBA player that you think might be a key piece in you being championship contenders, but asks for MPJ in the deal, is that a dealbreaker for you? It's definitely not for me. He's going to be good, especially as a scorer, but his lack of defense, complete lack of playmaking ability, and dubious health take him off the ''untouchable'' list imo.

[luckyman]

Just want to point out how much Gentry preached stopping guard penetration with Holiday and Lonzo in his back court.

Meanwhile Toronto posts a top 5 defense all year with extremely undersized and not very athletic back court of Van Vleet and Lowry. While Norman Powell is very athletic he's also not a big guard.

��

[new city champ]

Just want to point out how much Gentry preached stopping guard penetration with Holiday and Lonzo in his back court.

Meanwhile Toronto posts a top 5 defense all year with extremely undersized and not very athletic back court of Van Vleet and Lowry. While Norman Powell is very athletic he's also not a big guard.

��

For the past five seasons the Pels have brought in two supposed defensive “gurus” to fix their putrid defending. The results have been a confused bunch of young players who constantly look lost on defense and neither run people off the 3 point line nor defend against dribble penetration. Here’s a modest suggestion: pick one.

That’s what the Bucks league-leading defense does. They defend the paint while allowing the most 3 point point attempts in the NBA. Instead of constantly switching and helping, they back off, go under, and make sure you don’t get to the rim. The result of this “ Keep it simple, stupid” approach? A historically good NBA defense. Read on ....https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/12...lopez-brothers

[da ThRONe]

The Sixers were the 2nd favorite in the East, 4th overall favorite heading into this season. Very smart people like Zach Lowe, and many others, predicted a Finals appearance. Yes, you get the gift of hindsight to call Brand an idiot. This is the gift of the all too smart fan. But I guarantee that if you sat in a room with any coach in the league or any front office, you would learn VERY quickly how little you truly know.

It wasn't hindsight. It was common sense. 2 centers and 2 power forwards will not work in today's NBA. Plenty of knowledgeable people called this out.

[Pelicanidae]

It wasn't hindsight. It was common sense. 2 centers and 2 power forwards will not work in today's NBA. Plenty of knowledgeable people called this out.

Yeah about 75% of all basketball people I know and follow were talking about how every move the Sixers FO was making Wasa mistake, as it was happening. It's not a hindsight thing.

Teams need multiple people who can create on at least some level, and teams with two none shooters as centrepieces need shooters around them. This is just obvious to anyone who knows anything about basketball.

[ColoradoCajun]

Fans don't have to deal with a little thing called reality. They can come up with all their ideas and trades in a vacuum, not knowing if other parties would agree.

We saw fan and smart people crowd sourcing once before, as the Kings did it with their draft. They suggested Elfrid Payton or Stauskus as the pick. Thats what their numbers told them.

Also, every fan you think is smart - each front office has five people in their office ten times smarter with access to more numbers and video with context than any person not working in the league would have access to

In a league of 30, where 29 are destined to fail every year, it is so easy to sit back and think you are smarter, especially when you don't have reality to limit you. When you can repost all your great past ideas that look brilliant now, and conveniently not mention the awful ones you had that would have sunk the team if you had made it and prevented your brilliant one from even being possible

Long story short, this was maybe your worst take ever. And as a Drummond > AD guy, that's saying something

Wasn't there a story out a week ago, Pelicans only have one analytics person on staff? 5-10 is laughable nonsense.

[Eman5805]

Wasn't there a story out a week ago, Pelicans only have one analytics person on staff? 5-10 is laughable nonsense.

Wait what? I thought we had a whole team. Who are all the dudes in polos who sit in a clutch every game? I thought they were scouts and analytics dudes?

[GuardianAngel25]

Just want to point out how much Gentry preached stopping guard penetration with Holiday and Lonzo in his back court.

Meanwhile Toronto posts a top 5 defense all year with extremely undersized and not very athletic back court of Van Vleet and Lowry. While Norman Powell is very athletic he's also not a big guard.

��

Yea our defense should be lights out. It makes no sense especially when you have 2 of the best defensive guards in the NBA that have the strength and length to guard 1-3. Then you have Ingram who is a decent defender with elite length who will get better defensively as his strength improves. No reasons whatsoever we shouldn’t in the the top 7 every single season with this group. When you have guards like we do who can stop the point of attack should be enough to have a tough defense even without defensive minded bigs. We are actually solid in the paint with our bigs as well. I think if we get the right coach while guys like Hayes and Zion continue to learn the game and improve on this side of the ball we will be very good. Some of the issues also came from the pace we tried to play at making the games more of who can score the most. Playing at that pace also has guys saving themselves and not exerting to much defensively. When we were in the playoffs we had a different mindset in seemed which is normal for most teams but we really took it to the another level that we should be able to somewhat replicate regularly.

[As I See It]

Yea our defense should be lights out. It makes no sense especially when you have 2 of the best defensive guards in the NBA that have the strength and length to guard 1-3. Then you have Ingram who is a decent defender with elite length who will get better defensively as his strength improves. No reasons whatsoever we shouldn’t in the the top 7 every single season with this group. When you have guards like we do who can stop the point of attack should be enough to have a tough defense even without defensive minded bigs. We are actually solid in the paint with our bigs as well. I think if we get the right coach while guys like Hayes and Zion continue to learn the game and improve on this side of the ball we will be very good. Some of the issues also came from the pace we tried to play at making the games more of who can score the most. Playing at that pace also has guys saving themselves and not exerting to much defensively. When we were in the playoffs we had a different mindset in seemed which is normal for most teams but we really took it to the another level that we should be able to somewhat replicate regularly.

Until we learn how to defend the PnR, we will continue to hover at the bottom of the league in defense. Your point on Ball and Holiday is well taken, however.

[UNO Gracias]

We have had our differences in the past, but I am glad to see some of the old faces back and posting.

[tdcreator]

We have had our differences in the past, but I am glad to see some of the old faces back and posting.

Who you calling old!! ����**����

[As I See It]

My 2 cents:

Golden State gets Jrue Holiday from New Orleans
Golden State gets 2020 #13 pick from New Orleans

Washington gets Andrew Wiggins from Golden State
Washington gets 2020 # 1 pick from Golden State

New Orleans gets Bradley Beal from Washington
New Orleans gets 2020 # 9 pick from Washington

The players' salaries work (Jrue would probably have to extend). The draft pick swaps is there as an enticement to the Wizards.

[Pelicanidae]

My 2 cents:

Golden State gets Jrue Holiday from New Orleans
Golden State gets 2020 #13 pick from New Orleans

Washington gets Andrew Wiggins from Golden State
Washington gets 2020 # 1 pick from Golden State

New Orleans gets Bradley Beal from Washington
New Orleans gets 2020 # 9 pick from Washington

The players' salaries work (Jrue would probably have to extend). The draft pick swaps is there as an enticement to the Wizards.

You: Until we learn how to defend PnR, we will be at the bottom of the league defensively
Also you: Trade for Bradley Beal

Hmm

[As I See It]

You: Until we learn how to defend PnR, we will be at the bottom of the league defensively
Also you: Trade for Bradley Beal

Hmm

If you can't get Jrue to extend now, you will get nothing in return when he opts out next summer for his last big pay day. This smells of AD 2.0...only Holiday is lot more classy about it. With the # 9 you pickup Killian Hayes (assuming he's there).

[Pelicanidae]

If you can't get Jrue to extend now, you will get nothing in return when he opts out next summer for his last big pay day (and get nothing in return). With the # 9 you pickup Killian Hayes (assuming he's there).

That has nothing to do with my criticism, really. It's not like I said ''we can't trade Jrue'', I just said that wanting to trade for Beal while also maintaining a focus on defense are desires that run contrary to each other.

Now, in fairness, Beal can be better on D than he was this year. He's never been Jrue level, but this year was unusually bad even for him. So it was pedantry more than anything.

[As I See It]

That has nothing to do with my criticism, really. It's not like I said ''we can't trade Jrue'', I just said that wanting to trade for Beal while also maintaining a focus on defense are desires that run contrary to each other.

Now, in fairness, Beal can be better on D than he was this year. He's never been Jrue level, but this year was unusually bad even for him. So it was pedantry more than anything.

I stand by my criticism of the defense. Though both were bad, we particularly sucked on the back end...be it, Zion, Melli, JAX, Ingram, or dare I say Favors (can I mention JAX twice?). There is a reason Jrue didn't merit consideration for any All Defensive teams and it wasn't all his fault.

[Pelicanidae]

I stand by my criticism of the defense. Though both were bad, we particularly sucked on the back end...be it, Zion, Melli, JAX, Ingram, or dare I say Favors (can I mention JAX twice?). There is a reason Jrue didn't merit consideration for any All Defensive teams and it wasn't all his fault.

What people need to realise is that defense is a team thing. You're right, Jrue's defensive impact was not All-D this year, and it wasn't his fault at all.

A perimeter defender can't do his job properly unless he knows his other teammates know what to do and where to be. If there's a switch or a trap, you need the other guard/wing to know what they're doing. If you're playing drop you need your big to know when to drop, how deep, and when to venture out. And that's just the super basic first principles of defense.

It doesn't matter if you play otherwise brilliant defense 1v1 if your team defense is bad, and your team defense can only shine properly when you can know which areas are being covered, when, by who. Jrue was stuck in that situation: his 1v1 defense was still great all year, but his team defense fell apart at times and a huge portion of that is because he was trying to guard 3 people at once without having any clue where his teammates were or what they were doing.

There's a reason that one great defender, even two, does not make a great defensive team.

[fullcourtpress]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christo.../#1fb506cc669e

[AUSSIE_PELICAN]

3 team trade:

Warriors: Holiday and Miller
Pels: 2nd pick, Randle, Gibson (team option) and 2021 Minny pick (top 3 protected)
Knicks: Wiggins and pick 13

[Pelicanidae]

3 team trade:

Warriors: Holiday and Miller
Pels: 2nd pick, Randle, Gibson (team option) and 2021 Minny pick (top 3 protected)
Knicks: Wiggins and pick 13

Lol, nope

[6warddude]

3 team trade:

Warriors: Holiday and Miller
Pels: 2nd pick, Randle, Gibson (team option) and 2021 Minny pick (top 3 protected)
Knicks: Wiggins and pick 13

i guess that trade proposal pop up on your sports feed also lol.......all of these trades thats popping up are giving the warriors a 4some of jrue,,curry,,klay,and green a chance to win a title within 2 years...

[MichaelMcNamara]

I like a trade that gets Jrue to Philly and Embiid to Golden State. We get our dog and jerk in the locker room - Draymond

Warriors get: Embiid, a few seconds from us and Philly to help fill out the roster cheap

Philly get: JJ, Jrue, 13 as core of deal

Pels get: Draymond, Mike Scott & Zhaire (salary filler), #2, and Minny 2021 pick

Draymond is our Jimmy Butler. He, along with a tough coaching staff helps change the culture and hold young guys accountable while toughening them up. Take Killian Hayes with the pick. Sign DJ Augustin with MLE so you dont have to throw too much at K Hayes right away.

Augustin/Hayes
Lonzo/NAW/Didi
Ingram/Hart
Zion/Melli/Kenrich
Draymond/Hayes/Zylan

Young team that could overacheive in regular season by playing hard every night and being led by a vocal vet a la OKC this year. Plus you got Minny's pick, all your own, a ton of good 2nd rounders from Wash and Cleveland plus the Lakers picks far out. The main thing is that you need Draymond to be pissed off by the trade and motivated to prove himself. If that happens, he can lead that locker room and help those guys grow. Then, eventually you add a stud to the K. Hayes-Ingram-Zion core using picks and young players

[PaKwAn]

Embiid is going to fetch more than that... a 1 year rental of jrue, an aging yet good shooter in jj and the 13th pick in a weak draft is not enough for embiid..many teams will easily throw out better offers... i think we are stealing value with this deal that philly should of gotten

[lsutigers33]

Hayes, Zion, green on the floor?

[MichaelMcNamara]

Hayes, Zion, green on the floor?

I couldnt care less about Hayes. He is YEARS away. Ingram-Zion-Green front court works