Jrue Holliday is everyone's "missing piece"

[Pelicanidae]

Deal 1: Who cares on the Dinwiddie deal? LaVert is the real prize with Dinwiddie as Lagniappe and a possible replacement for Ball.

Deal 2: I don’t see Redick on this team beyond next year as he will likely championship chase on his next contract. Jrue will opt in on his player option as no one will pay him $27 million a year on his next deal. Turner is the prize as a true stretch center who can defend an actual center on a reasonable contract. Oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy.

I care, because not only is LeVert not nearly as great as some people seem to think he is, he's also got legs made of paper mache. It's hard for me to accept someone like Dinwiddie as a throw-in when that throw-in is going to cost you $20m+.

Yes, Jrue will opt in, I don't care about that. Like you said, ''oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy'': if he can stay healthy, he's getting paid $20m+ too, at which point you're starting to talk about a similar level of price as Jrue's next contract for a player that's basically the same age, not as good, and with a worse injury history. Which is a significant loss of value.

I also agree that it's not likely that Redick will be here long term, for age reasons if nothing else, but the reality is that he has value to contending teams. You don't throw him in to deals as a buy-one-get-one-free deal, especially when the return on that throw in is broken Oladipo. Saying that trading Redick isn't a big deal because you don't see him on the team beyond next year is one thing, but if you then trade him for someone who also probably won't be on the team next year, you're just spinning wheels.

[Pelicanidae]

It's kind of funny that Dell spent years trading away our every asset in a rush to win now, he left, everyone was like ''hooray! now we can do it right and build properly!''

And now barely a year later, everyone is like ''QUICK, TRADE THE #13 PICK, TRADE JRUE, TRADE REDICK, WE NEED TO SHIP EVERYTHING OUT!'' as if the only two options are lose forever or win today.

Some fans of this franchise seem to be in a desperate rush to be as mediocre as possible, as soon as possible.

[Darkhorse985]

I care, because not only is LeVert not nearly as great as some people seem to think he is, he's also got legs made of paper mache. It's hard for me to accept someone like Dinwiddie as a throw-in when that throw-in is going to cost you $20m+.

Yes, Jrue will opt in, I don't care about that. Like you said, ''oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy'': if he can stay healthy, he's getting paid $20m+ too, at which point you're starting to talk about a similar level of price as Jrue's next contract for a player that's basically the same age, not as good, and with a worse injury history. Which is a significant loss of value.

I also agree that it's not likely that Redick will be here long term, for age reasons if nothing else, but the reality is that he has value to contending teams. You don't throw him in to deals as a buy-one-get-one-free deal, especially when the return on that throw in is broken Oladipo. Saying that trading Redick isn't a big deal because you don't see him on the team beyond next year is one thing, but if you then trade him for someone who also probably won't be on the team next year, you're just spinning wheels.

Please present a better deal, as you seem to think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league and we can only receive value as such. Jrue is proven to choke in the clutch and is really a complementary great defender/ 3rd scoring option on a contending team. We won’t be a contending team for at least the next 2-3 years.

Care to wager that Dinwiddie won’t get $20m a year on his next deal in the post COVID NBA? He will get $15-$20 million a year max.

[Pelicanidae]

Please present a better deal, as you seem to think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league and we can only receive value as such. Jrue is proven to choke in the clutch and is really a complementary great defender/ 3rd scoring option on a contending team. We won’t be a contending team for at least the next 2-3 years.

I do not think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league, don't be silly. At his absolute peak, he was top 20 (2017-18 and 2018-19), but this year he was more like top 40. Definitely not a superstar by any measure, but still very good.

What people tend not to understand is that players are often better or worse depending on circumstance. This was the first year for a couple of years where we had nobody other than Jrue who could reliably be trusted to create in the halfcourt, and that meant that on top of his already existing responsibilities (play all-league defense on the best players in the NBA, score 18+ a game, etc) he was also being asked to create for everyone else too in half court situations. That was clearly too much for him, at least at the beginning of the year, and he struggled. Nobody is denying that. But that's a product of circumstance as much as anything else.

For example, if you take the last year we made the playoffs, Jrue was top 10 in clutch time scoring in the NBA, and was the most efficient scorer in the clutch among those top 10 players in the NBA. Yes, better than AD and Lebron and Westbrook and whatnot. This is very strange for someone who is ''proven to choke in the clutch'', no? Might make you think that maybe he can be better than he was this year, when given a more suitable supporting cast and not asked to run the entire team himself. Do I think he's actually a top 10 clutch player? No, I think that year was an outlier based on a perfect storm, but it is demonstrative of more than you give him credit for when he's in the right situation.

Personally, I don't really see the need to move Jrue. But if I was forced to move him (let's say, hypothetically, he demanded a move) then I'd be talking to Denver and I'd be looking for Jamal Murray, Monte Morris, and their 2021+23 FRPs unprotected to start the negotiations. Obviously things can adjust from there, but that's 1 sub-all star young player who has shown flashes of upside but is inconsistent, a very good backup, and two FRPs from a playoff team. This is not some ridiculous top 10 trade haul, but it is what I expect a team to pay if they believe this trade will turn them into a true title contender.

[Darkhorse985]

I do not think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league, don't be silly. At his absolute peak, he was top 20 (2017-18 and 2018-19), but this year he was more like top 40. Definitely not a superstar by any measure, but still very good.

What people tend not to understand is that players are often better or worse depending on circumstance. This was the first year for a couple of years where we had nobody other than Jrue who could reliably be trusted to create in the halfcourt, and that meant that on top of his already existing responsibilities (play all-league defense on the best players in the NBA, score 18+ a game, etc) he was also being asked to create for everyone else too in half court situations. That was clearly too much for him, at least at the beginning of the year, and he struggled. Nobody is denying that. But that's a product of circumstance as much as anything else.

For example, if you take the last year we made the playoffs, Jrue was top 10 in clutch time scoring in the NBA, and was the most efficient scorer in the clutch among those top 10 players in the NBA. Yes, better than AD and Lebron and Westbrook and whatnot. This is very strange for someone who is ''proven to choke in the clutch'', no? Might make you think that maybe he can be better than he was this year, when given a more suitable supporting cast and not asked to run the entire team himself. Do I think he's actually a top 10 clutch player? No, I think that year was an outlier based on a perfect storm, but it is demonstrative of more than you give him credit for when he's in the right situation.

Personally, I don't really see the need to move Jrue. But if I was forced to move him (let's say, hypothetically, he demanded a move) then I'd be talking to Denver and I'd be looking for Jamal Murray, Monte Morris, and their 2021+23 FRPs unprotected to start the negotiations. Obviously things can adjust from there, but that's 1 sub-all star young player who has shown flashes of upside but is inconsistent, a very good backup, and two FRPs from a playoff team. This is not some ridiculous top 10 trade haul, but it is what I expect a team to pay if they believe this trade will turn them into a true title contender.

I see Jamal Murray as significantly more valuable than Jrue (younger and higher upside), yet you want him and 2 unprotected firsts? Your expectations are delusional. You value Jrue way too highly.

[Snarly]

If you’re realistically looking at a similar trade, look at Mike Conley trade. Korver, Crowder, Grayson Allen, and the 23th pick. Jrue isn’t going to net you a star player. The only reason he can net you #2 is because of a rare opportunity due to injuries from a contending team.

[Pelicanidae]

I see Jamal Murray as significantly more valuable than Jrue (younger and higher upside), yet you want him and 2 unprotected firsts? Your expectations are delusional. You value Jrue way too highly.

Jamal Murray is a defensive turnstile who has never even hit league average efficiency on the offensive end, and who has yet to demonstrate anything even resembling consistency.

If you consider that more valuable (today, as in, if the Nuggets want to try and win a championship next season, not 6 seasons from now) than probably the best two way guard in the NBA, then you're free to do that but personally I disagree.

Now, of course if the Nuggets don't think that Jrue is what will push them over the edge, then they don't make the trade. That's fine, and neither of us are psychic so we don't know their internal evaluations. But if they do think that he is that guy to pair with Jokic, then they pay up. That's how things work: we don't have to trade Jrue, so we set the price. It's up for other teams to meet it, or not, depending on how desperately they want him.

And they're two unprotected firsts from a team that, in this scenario, think they're going to be title contenders. I cannot tell you how little Denver, who didn't even bother taking a FRP in the 2019 draft and constantly pick in the mid 20s, cares about their FRPs. If you tell them ''you can be in the conversation for a ring in the next few seasons, but it will cost you the 24th pick in 2023'' they will take that deal 90% of the time.

[Silver Nail]

Please present a better deal, as you seem to think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league and we can only receive value as such. Jrue is proven to choke in the clutch and is really a complementary great defender/ 3rd scoring option on a contending team. We won’t be a contending team for at least the next 2-3 years.

Care to wager that Dinwiddie won’t get $20m a year on his next deal in the post COVID NBA? He will get $15-$20 million a year max.

No, wouldn't care to wager on Dinwiddie getting 20, but would REALLY like some of the action that says Jrue won't get a 27 mil or better next deal.

[Darkhorse985]

Jamal Murray is a defensive turnstile who has never even hit league average efficiency on the offensive end, and who has yet to demonstrate anything even resembling consistency.

If you consider that more valuable (today, as in, if the Nuggets want to try and win a championship next season, not 6 seasons from now) than probably the best two way guard in the NBA, then you're free to do that but personally I disagree.

Now, of course if the Nuggets don't think that Jrue is what will push them over the edge, then they don't make the trade. That's fine, and neither of us are psychic so we don't know their internal evaluations. But if they do think that he is that guy to pair with Jokic, then they pay up. That's how things work: we don't have to trade Jrue, so we set the price. It's up for other teams to meet it, or not, depending on how desperately they want him.

And they're two unprotected firsts from a team that, in this scenario, think they're going to be title contenders. I cannot tell you how little Denver, who didn't even bother taking a FRP in the 2019 draft and constantly pick in the mid 20s, cares about their FRPs. If you tell them ''you can be in the conversation for a ring in the next few seasons, but it will cost you the 24th pick in 2023'' they will take that deal 90% of the time.

The Nuggets’ “second star” is Jamal Murray, so I highly doubt they think trading Murray for Jrue makes them a championship caliber team. Do you think Jrue filling the role as a “second star” makes any team a championship caliber team? I would like to think NBA GMs/coachs have some reasonable sense of value. I don’t see Billy King with a job. Do you have another suggestion?

[Darkhorse985]

No, wouldn't care to wager on Dinwiddie getting 20, but would REALLY like some of the action that says Jrue won't get a 27 mil or better next deal.

I’d take that bet against you. $5 and a bag of chips.

[Pelicanidae]

The Nuggets’ “second star” is Jamal Murray, so I highly doubt they think trading Murray for Jrue makes them a championship caliber team. Do you think Jrue filling the role as a “second star” makes any team a championship caliber team? I would like to think NBA GMs/coachs have some reasonable sense of value. I don’t see Billy King with a job. Do you have another suggestion?

NBA GMs are professionals doing a job, and while obviously many of them are good at it, they're as capable of making mistakes as anyone else. Every year, teams make multiple moves that leave everyone scratching their heads. Don't fool yourself into thinking that NBA GMs are some kind of flawless mistake-free group.

In any case, that's not really the point. Is Jrue a downgrade from Murray on offense? As a scorer, yes, although Jrue is actually the superior passer. Is he an upgrade from Murray on defense? Absolutely, without question.

If you're the Nuggets, who have Jokic, who have Gary Harris, who have MPJ coming along nicely, who have Bol Bol sat there ready going forward, you know offense isn't your worry. Your problem is that you don't have a single goddamn wing defender worth a pair of socks, and as a result whenever you hit a team in the playoffs with a serious ballhandler who can create, you get torched. If you think that you are 90% of the way towards being a contender, and the one thing you're missing is a legitimate wing stopper, then Jrue could very well have more value to you than Murray. If Jrue only gets you 80% of Murray on offense, but is 5 times better as a defender, that's a net gain, and for a team which already has ample offensive firepower it's the defensive gain that you need.

Now, it may be well that the Nuggets don't think this. Maybe they think they're much further away from contending than that, and therefore it's worth it for them to wait on Murray some more and see if he takes a leap. That's fine. If that's the case, we don't make the trade.

Again, I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, we do not actually have to trade Jrue. We are not required to do it. There is no law or rule telling us that we have to, he hasn't asked out, he's not 38 years old, it's not like he's going to be eligible for a supermax, he seems to want to be here, here's a good player, and it's not like we're capped out or anything. The only reason to trade Jrue is if we get something out of it that is worth the deal. If we don't get an offer that is worth the deal, we don't make the trade. It's that simple. If he had asked out, it would be a different story, but he hasn't.

Not sure why so many people seem to be doing their best Dell Demps Fire Sale impression, but cool the jets.

[Taker597]

You guys really should give up on give Dae Jrue trade ideas. He already said he wouldn't budge.

You got him on some nonsensical anecdote referencing Demps win now trade vs. Trying to get assets and young players and just take a few years to build organically with no risk on our long term future. It a fruitless conversation. He already said his piece

[Pelicanidae]

You guys really should give up on give Dae Jrue trade ideas. He already said he wouldn't budge.

You got him on some nonsensical anecdote referencing Demps win now trade vs. Trying to get assets and young players and just take a few years to build organically with no risk on our long term future. It a fruitless conversation. He already said his piece

Yeah, I've been very clear that I'm not at all interested in trading Jrue for a bunch of spare parts. If he gets moved, fine, but it should be for an offer where we tangibly get something out of it. We don't have to trade him, so unless we see an actually good reason to do so, there's no reason to make that move. Arguing that he doesn't fit our timeline and is expensive, only to turn around and suggest a deal including Spencer Dinwiddie, who is basically Jrue's age and is going to cost in the region of $20m himself, is basically just being ridiculous on purpose tbh.

Some people on this board seem weirdly convinced that you should make trades just for the sake of having made a trade. Pointless.

[Darkhorse985]

Yeah, I've been very clear that I'm not at all interested in trading Jrue for a bunch of spare parts. If he gets moved, fine, but it should be for an offer where we tangibly get something out of it. We don't have to trade him, so unless we see an actually good reason to do so, there's no reason to make that move. Arguing that he doesn't fit our timeline and is expensive, only to turn around and suggest a deal including Spencer Dinwiddie, who is basically Jrue's age and is going to cost in the region of $20m himself, is basically just being ridiculous on purpose tbh.

Some people on this board seem weirdly convinced that you should make trades just for the sake of having made a trade. Pointless.

Yeah, let’s ignore Caris LeVert and Myles Turner to fit your narrative. Both younger, up and coming, players on relatively value deals. We would fair far better with a 30 year old making $27 million on a 2 year deal who is at best a 3rd option offensively and has one decent playoff series to his name with 7 years as a Pelican.

It’s time to clean house from the remnants of the last regime, and Jrue’s mediocrity is a part of that.

[Pelicanidae]

Yeah, let’s ignore Caris LeVert and Myles Turner to fit your narrative. Both younger, up and coming, players on relatively value deals. We would fair far better with a 30 year old making $27 million on a 2 year deal who is at best a 3rd option offensively and has one decent playoff series to his name with 7 years as a Pelican.

It’s time to clean house from the remnants of the last regime, and Jrue’s mediocrity is a part of that.

Caris LeVert is

1) Older than most people think (he turns 27 next year)
2) Worse than most people think (hasn't posted a league average TS% since his rookie year, mediocre defender, mediocre passer, career 33% from 3)
3) Has already had multiple serious injuries, which is why he played 45 games this year and 40 games last year

As for Turner, you'll notice that while I do have some issue with Turner (he's regressed on defense, for example, which is supposed to be his calling card) I do actually like him. You'll notice, if you actually bother to read what I write before responding, that my primary issue with the Indiana trade is the Oladipo inclusion.

[Pelifan]

yea I dont want to trade Jrue for a collection of nickels and dimes, known guys near their ceilings, and random future picks that might be in the 20s.

If you're not getting a core piece why bother. That doesn't have to be a guy currently viewed as a core piece or anything though. If the scouts in the FO decide Killian Hayes is the guy or something then I wouldn't hesitate to trade Jrue to trade up for a pick high enough to select him (obviously you'd still need more than that though to make sure the value is even, but that can be the core component.)

[JJackisangry]

You trade him right away if a solid offer is on the table. He didn’t make a bad defense better, he contributed greatly to our massive turnover issues, he was too inconsistent with decision making in possession and he isn’t a consistent enough 3 point shooter to fit right next to Zion. Also, he is on a sizeable contract, we aren’t competitive enough atm and he only has one real year left (not counting the player option). On the right team, he is a very good player. On this team, he looked really bad for a large portion of our games. Not acceptable for a player on his contract.

[Pelicanidae]

You trade him right away if a solid offer is on the table. He didn’t make a bad defense better, he contributed greatly to our massive turnover issues, he was too inconsistent with decision making in possession and he isn’t a consistent enough 3 point shooter to fit right next to Zion. Also, he is on a sizeable contract, we aren’t competitive enough atm and he only has one real year left (not counting the player option). On the right team, he is a very good player. On this team, he looked really bad for a large portion of our games. Not acceptable for a player on his contract.

Find me a player good enough to fix this team lol. We had AD come runner up for DPOY twice during his tenure here and he couldn't fix our defense: we only had a top 10 defensive rating once during Gentry's entire time as head coach.

The only players who are good enough to legitimately be really good on a team which has as many problems as ours did this year are like, the top 10 players in the NBA. Jrue made less this year than Andrew Wiggins, Al Horford, Demar DeRozan, CJ McCollum, Tobias Harris, Mike Conley, and Russell Westbrook, and despite his problems he had a better year than all of them. If his performance is unacceptable for his contract, then half the contracts in the league over $25m are unacceptable.

[JJackisangry]

Find me a player good enough to fix this team lol. We had AD come runner up for DPOY twice during his tenure here and he couldn't fix our defense: we only had a top 10 defensive rating once during Gentry's entire time as head coach.

The only players who are good enough to legitimately be really good on a team which has as many problems as ours did this year are like, the top 10 players in the NBA. Jrue made less this year than Andrew Wiggins, Al Horford, Demar DeRozan, CJ McCollum, Tobias Harris, Mike Conley, and Russell Westbrook, and despite his problems he had a better year than all of them. If his performance is unacceptable for his contract, then half the contracts in the league over $25m are unacceptable.

You literally just made my point for me. He is bad on this team. Realistically he will stay for one more year and bail. Why on Earth should we keep him? Will AD re-sign here?

[Pelicanidae]

You literally just made my point for me. He is bad on this team. Realistically he will stay for one more year and bail. Why on Earth should we keep him? Will AD re-sign here?

Not really sure why you ask about AD resigning here, nothing I said had anything to do with that. My point was that getting mad at Jrue because he didn't fix the defense of this team, for example, is a really, really silly thing to do, because that's not how defense works: even DPOY level players can't single handedly fix a bad defense because defense is more about coaching scheme, technique, group trust, and teamwork than offense is. That's just how it is.

In any case, it's also abundantly obvious that Jrue isn't bad on all teams, I think you'd agree with that. The evidence of this is that he was really great for the Pelicans the last two years, so it's clear he can be good.

So when you say ''he is bad on this team'', what you really mean is ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans that existed for the 2019-20 season''.

Great news! The team that exists for the 2020-21 season won't be that Pelicans team. Lonzo's got a good shot of being traded, Favors, Frank Jackson, E'twaun Moore, Kenrich Williams, etc, all have a good chance of not being here, there might be a Didi addition, the draft could easily bring in some new faces before we even get to free agency and, oh yep, we're going to have a new coach.

Therefore ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans team that won't exist in 3 months, so we should trade him'' doesn't really work as an argument.

Trading Jrue is not some no-no, forbidden idea that we're not allowed to discuss. I just don't know why the door being open to trades means that apparently it should be open for really bad trades. Teams should make their offers and if they're good we'll take them and if they're bad we shouldn't: not sure why this is apparently some grand mystery that I need to point out to people.

[Taker597]

Dae: I don't want to trade Holiday
Everyone else: wElL hOw aBoUt tHiS tRaDe!?
Dae: Still no
Everyone else:

[Pelicanidae]

Dae: I don't want to trade Holiday
Everyone else: wElL hOw aBoUt tHiS tRaDe!?
Dae: Still no
Everyone else:

More like

Other people: We should trade Jrue. He's too old for our timeline, too expensive, and wasn't good this year.
Me: Okay fine, I'm open to the idea of trading him but it has to be for something that tangibly improves our future.
Other people: Our suggestions include a bunch of people basically the same age as him, deals that will end up costing more than him, players with legs made of chalk powder and hope, and we haven't even added any picks.
Me: Nah, those are bad deals.
Everyone else: *shocked pikachu*

[Taker597]

More like

Other people: We should trade Jrue. He's too old for our timeline, too expensive, and wasn't good this year.
Me: Okay fine, I'm open to the idea of trading him but it has to be for something that tangibly improves our future.
Other people: Our suggestions include a bunch of people basically the same age as him, deals that will end up costing more than him, players with legs made of chalk powder and hope, and we haven't even added any picks.
Me: Nah, those are bad deals.
Everyone else: *shocked pikachu*

I like my condense version. lol, It's gonna be a long off season.

[JJackisangry]

Not really sure why you ask about AD resigning here, nothing I said had anything to do with that. My point was that getting mad at Jrue because he didn't fix the defense of this team, for example, is a really, really silly thing to do, because that's not how defense works: even DPOY level players can't single handedly fix a bad defense because defense is more about coaching scheme, technique, group trust, and teamwork than offense is. That's just how it is.

In any case, it's also abundantly obvious that Jrue isn't bad on all teams, I think you'd agree with that. The evidence of this is that he was really great for the Pelicans the last two years, so it's clear he can be good.

So when you say ''he is bad on this team'', what you really mean is ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans that existed for the 2019-20 season''.

Great news! The team that exists for the 2020-21 season won't be that Pelicans team. Lonzo's got a good shot of being traded, Favors, Frank Jackson, E'twaun Moore, Kenrich Williams, etc, all have a good chance of not being here, there might be a Didi addition, the draft could easily bring in some new faces before we even get to free agency and, oh yep, we're going to have a new coach.

Therefore ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans team that won't exist in 3 months, so we should trade him'' doesn't really work as an argument.

Trading Jrue is not some no-no, forbidden idea that we're not allowed to discuss. I just don't know why the door being open to trades means that apparently it should be open for really bad trades. Teams should make their offers and if they're good we'll take them and if they're bad we shouldn't: not sure why this is apparently some grand mystery that I need to point out to people.

The point is we probably won’t acquire the players for Jrue to be useful before his contract runs down. Do we keep him and lose him for nothing or look for a trade package that sets us up better in the long term. For me, it’s without a doubt the latter. He isn’t worth keeping (in my opinion). I’m entitled to my opinion and you’re entitled to yours. I never said you weren’t, which is not getting through apparently. You are getting a bit too defensive about this guy.

[Pelicanidae]

The point is we probably won’t acquire the players for Jrue to be useful before his contract runs down. Do we keep him and lose him for nothing or look for a trade package that sets us up better in the long term. For me, it’s without a doubt the latter. He isn’t worth keeping (in my opinion). I’m entitled to my opinion and you’re entitled to yours. I never said you weren’t, which is not getting through apparently. You are getting a bit too defensive about this guy.

It's fine that you want to look for a trade package that sets us up better in the long term.

How about people start suggesting those then, instead of asking for the privilege of paying Spencer Dinwiddie $20m a year?