Zion Conditioning Moving Forward

[Silverfoxx]

With the lost today and the infuriating turnovers and lack of defensive accountability the last redeming factor to watch games was to watch Zion get back into shape and possibly develop chemistry with BI. Outside of another alarming issue with this team which is effort accountability and a loser mentality that Zion displayed mirrored by his coach in today post game (mentioning the other team shot better and dismissing the lack of defensive effort) I'm concerned and confused by something else.

The most concerning and depressing nature of this whole NBA Bubble situation has been Zion spending months with access to a gym, being in the best shape in his life according to reports, and leaving the bubble for thirteen days and somehow returning into the worst shape we have seen him since a Pelican.

The mystery behind is condition is extremely strange because if reports are true, Zion possibly suffers from excessive weight gain issues and endurance/fluidity issues that can cause him to get out of shape QUICKLY. This is alarming because in the future if this continues, any nagging little injury can cause Zion to get into horrible shape quickly.

If thats not the case, this means we were lied to about his conditioning the whole time according to reports which I find hard to believe.

Moving forward Zion body naturally will gain more weight and muscle as it matures, but we will have to trust our staff and Aaron Nelson to develop a plan of action for one of the most unique bodies in history. As fans Zion is our franchise, so hopefully for future sake his underlying weight and conditioning issues will be figured out because Zion the Pelicans have currently is only 20 % of what he was in Duke.

And Duke Zion never returns, then we must all change our expectations for this franchise moving forward.

[Snarly]

Not worried about his conditioning once he gets a full offseason and a program tailored for him by the medical staff... he’ll be fine. What I want to see is him getting his body fat percentage down though. He’s built like a football player right now and he really needs to reshape his football body into a basketball body. Leaner and cut. Kind of like Lebron with Miami. I don’t want his knees wearing down over time. It’s way too much weight for a guy who plays above the rim.

[Taker597]

He was playing fine before the break. He was avging 30 minutes a night for 10 straight games. He'll be fine. I think he just need some sense of consistency. Covid and injury in 1st season is a lot.

[Silverfoxx]

I hear you guys, but he had a longer off-season then average. We were told he was working with trainers non stop for 4 months. A normal off season is two.

Im getting the same answer when this already happened. Not trying to be condensing but didn't this already happen this year? Working on fundamentals? Watching his weight? We were told the best shape of his life? And ALL of that just vanished based on two weeks? Like am I tripping?!?

[Pelicanidae]

I'm honestly just over discussions about Zion's weight and conditioning at this point. It's too saturated. It seems like every time someone is bored for five minutes another conversation crops up, whether it's here or reddit or twitter or in the ESPN headlines, about how fat Zion is. We're at the point where, if you hadn't seen a picture of him for a while, you could probably be forgiven for thinking he has to be like 350lbs and just a mess of flab.

Could he stand to be in better condition, whatever that is (weight, cardio experience, body fat %, whatever)? Yeah sure probably.

Is it the end of the world for a 19 year old coming off basically the worst possible case scenario for a rookie year outside of crippling injury? No.

[Silverfoxx]

I'm honestly just over discussions about Zion's weight and conditioning at this point. It's too saturated. It seems like every time someone is bored for five minutes another conversation crops up, whether it's here or reddit or twitter or in the ESPN headlines, about how fat Zion is. We're at the point where, if you hadn't seen a picture of him for a while, you could probably be forgiven for thinking he has to be like 350lbs and just a mess of flab.

Could he stand to be in better condition, whatever that is (weight, cardio experience, body fat %, whatever)? Yeah sure probably.

Is it the end of the world for a 19 year old coming off basically the worst possible case scenario for a rookie year outside of crippling injury? No.

Trust me I hate the conversations as well from ESPN figure heads to the guy on Twitter that claims to be a doctor, but honestly I never really cared about that this whole season going back even to summer league. The only reason why I bring this up now is this is the Zion we have who been in the gym conditioning and for a longer time frame than a off season and was told to be in the best shape of his life. And this is what he is coming from that. When folks say " he just needs another off season" idk if it's realistic expectations. It make take YEARS for the staff to figure his conditioning out so I'm looking at that vs "Zion is fat" jokes and crap like that. Griffin even admitted to the complexity of Zion and how they are basically still trying to figure him out.

It's just pretty concerning. It makes me think long term down the road if he gets a small nagging injury that has him out for 6-7 days will his body from a conditioning and endurance standpoint fall apart. As a 20 year his body will mature, but muscle growth and things of that nature will also happen.

[PELICANSFAN]

I hear you guys, but he had a longer off-season then average. We were told he was working with trainers non stop for 4 months. A normal off season is two.

Im getting the same answer when this already happened. Not trying to be condensing but didn't this already happen this year? Working on fundamentals? Watching his weight? We were told the best shape of his life? And ALL of that just vanished based on two weeks? Like am I tripping?!?

Surely any offseason he had was not the normal offseason for a rookie. That is not an excuse, but reality. Sadly, the "offseason" before next season will not be the same either. My hope is that Nelson is monitoring him daily and that he has a personal chef as well. I do not think he is "fat" by any means, but would hope there is a healthy sustainable method to take some weight off to give his knees and joints some long-term relief.

[JJackisangry]

I'm honestly just over discussions about Zion's weight and conditioning at this point. It's too saturated. It seems like every time someone is bored for five minutes another conversation crops up, whether it's here or reddit or twitter or in the ESPN headlines, about how fat Zion is. We're at the point where, if you hadn't seen a picture of him for a while, you could probably be forgiven for thinking he has to be like 350lbs and just a mess of flab.

Could he stand to be in better condition, whatever that is (weight, cardio experience, body fat %, whatever)? Yeah sure probably.

Is it the end of the world for a 19 year old coming off basically the worst possible case scenario for a rookie year outside of crippling injury? No.

The problem is it always comes up when it is convenient. Not when he is kicking everyone’s ******. For instance, when he stepped on that guy’s foot, the conversation instantly went to the ‘OMG he’s a blubbering whale look at him!’

[new city champ]

I just don’t think it’s that complicated or mysterious. Zion was in good shape in July. He had a family emergency. He left camp for two weeks. During his absence he wasn’t worried about working out or his diet. He put on a slug of bad weight + missed all the practices, drills and scrimmages. He came back and the fitness staff ran his metrics. They sucked. His weight was up and his conditioning was down. They put him on a recovery plan tailored for a 280+ pound guy with a history of knee problems. At a minimum it included restricted minutes + no back to backs. It may have included not playing at all the first week back and the league, which basically contoured the bubble for Zion, may have had some thoughts about going that route. It really seems pretty straightforward.

[ml wave]

Did we really hear that he was "in the best shape of his life", or did we just get the one mask picture and we all went crazy?

[PELICANSFAN]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...licans-insider

[Pelicanidae]

I just don’t think it’s that complicated or mysterious. Zion was in good shape in July. He had a family emergency. He left camp for two weeks. During his absence he wasn’t worried about working out or his diet. He put on a slug of bad weight + missed all the practices, drills and scrimmages..

The question is how the hell someone puts on a ''slug of bad weight'' in 2 weeks. How much weight can you put on in two weeks? Certainly not 20lbs or more, you'd have to be eating so much and doing absolutely zero movement at all.

If he left the bubble at, say, 260, and came back at 267, then that's one thing. But the way people talk about him and the way his minutes have been handled are as if he left at 250lbs and came back at 285. Which is just impossible.

[Eman5805]

I can only believe he never lost weight. That image was doctored or just like he was last year when he looked trim next to football players at training camp.

[Biasvasospasm]

The question is how the hell someone puts on a ''slug of bad weight'' in 2 weeks. How much weight can you put on in two weeks? Certainly not 20lbs or more, you'd have to be eating so much and doing absolutely zero movement at all.

If he left the bubble at, say, 260, and came back at 267, then that's one thing. But the way people talk about him and the way his minutes have been handled are as if he left at 250lbs and came back at 285. Which is just impossible.

I don't think he ever lost much weight. He has consistently gotten bigger, slower, and less active on the court the longer he has been in a Pelicans uniform. He looked bigger and moved different in summer league than he did at Duke, he looked about the same size at preseason as he did in summer league, he was noticeably bigger in January than he was in preseason, and he's bigger now than he was in January. He looked perhaps a bit thinner in the face and body in the few videos we had leading up to the bubble, but he always wears sweats in practice and so it's hard to say much in that setting about his weight.

It's just a bummer. He is a one-dimensional inside scorer at this point. He is very good, nearly unprecedently good at that one thing. But he has turned into a terrible rebounder and a terrible defensive player who either doesn't have the energy, the ability physically, or the pride to make winning basketball plays when he isn't scoring. It's not regular rookie stuff, in my opinion. Rookie stuff is Jaxson Hayes---he runs and jumps really hard in all the wrong places. Zion doesn't move.

[Pelicanidae]

I don't think he ever lost much weight. He has consistently gotten bigger, slower, and less active on the court the longer he has been in a Pelicans uniform. He looked bigger and moved different in summer league than he did at Duke, he looked about the same size at preseason as he did in summer league, he was noticeably bigger in January than he was in preseason, and he's bigger now than he was in January. He looked perhaps a bit thinner in the face and body in the few videos we had leading up to the bubble, but he always wears sweats in practice and so it's hard to say much in that setting about his weight.

It's just a bummer. He is a one-dimensional inside scorer at this point. He is very good, nearly unprecedently good at that one thing. But he has turned into a terrible rebounder and a terrible defensive player who either doesn't have the energy, the ability physically, or the pride to make winning basketball plays when he isn't scoring. It's not regular rookie stuff, in my opinion. Rookie stuff is Jaxson Hayes---he runs and jumps really hard in all the wrong places. Zion doesn't move.

I don't think this is true at all.

He looked thinner in preseason than he did in Summer League, and while he looked heavier when he came back off injury than he did in preseason (not surprising), he looked better by the end of just that 19 game run than he did at the start. Even now, he looks better than he did at Summer League last year.

As for the rest, I just don't think is reflected by the games. He's been pretty strong passer since summer league, and even in just the last few games he's shown that. In the Memphis game he had 5 assists but 3 of them were extremely advanced ones, and while he only had 2 assists in the Kings game, he actually set up several more on drive and kicks that just didn't result in made shots, which isn't Zion's fault.

Secondly, while his defense has come under a lot of criticism (and rightly so, since we've seen how good he can be at Duke), I think people are overstating how bad it is a lot of the time. Go back again to the Memphis game, where his defense was actually pretty good the entire time, and nobody mentions that at all; but then he moves out of the way of a dunk in the Sacramento game and everyone loses their mind. It's true his defense is not where I had hoped it would be, and that it's not good, at least not consistently, but the people who are acting like he's just the worst defender in the NBA are just flat wrong by my estimation.

Does Zion have improvements to make? Absolutely, his passing still has room to improve, his handle is still inconsistent, the rebounding has been come and go, and the defense has been worse than we would want. But people are acting like he's never passed the ball, never had a rebound, and never contested a shot at all, which is just ridiculous at best.

[tdcreator]

Would you trade Zion for Cade Cunningham? I love Zion but if this is what to expect then let’s get the farm while he has that value. I love Jrue but doubt he wants a rebuild again. We should be able to get something good. Zo could be moved as well for a little something. Bring in a young coach that can grow with this team like Boston did with Stevens. If Ingram does want to run this team then move him too. I thought this team had real potential but I’m seeing a team not able to mech together. Give me 15 josh Hart’s that hustle, play hard, and looks like he hates to lose.

[Pelicanidae]

Would you trade Zion for Cade Cunningham?

I don't think it's possible to trade for Cade right now. Nobody knows who will have what picks next year, it would be pointless speculation.

And by the time we do know who that pick would be, we'll also have another year of Zion on the books for us to make a real evaluation of, since it's hard to evaluate Zion properly given what a mess this year has been.

I'll put it this way. I'm not discussing trading Zion right now. But if in a year's time there's been no improvement at all from him on defense then we can discuss it, and it would be a very real discussion.

[Biasvasospasm]

I don't think this is true at all.

He looked thinner in preseason than he did in Summer League, and while he looked heavier when he came back off injury than he did in preseason (not surprising), he looked better by the end of just that 19 game run than he did at the start. Even now, he looks better than he did at Summer League last year.

As for the rest, I just don't think is reflected by the games. He's been pretty strong passer since summer league, and even in just the last few games he's shown that. In the Memphis game he had 5 assists but 3 of them were extremely advanced ones, and while he only had 2 assists in the Kings game, he actually set up several more on drive and kicks that just didn't result in made shots, which isn't Zion's fault.

Secondly, while his defense has come under a lot of criticism (and rightly so, since we've seen how good he can be at Duke), I think people are overstating how bad it is a lot of the time. Go back again to the Memphis game, where his defense was actually pretty good the entire time, and nobody mentions that at all; but then he moves out of the way of a dunk in the Sacramento game and everyone loses their mind. It's true his defense is not where I had hoped it would be, and that it's not good, at least not consistently, but the people who are acting like he's just the worst defender in the NBA are just flat wrong by my estimation.
.

Yeah, his passing is good and sometimes really good. I have no issues with that part of the game. He sees the floor well offensively and can technically throw some really nice passes, especially in transition.

I don't think people are overestimating how bad the defense is. I think might be the lowest effort defender currently in the NBA. He often doesn't rotate (or rotates REALLY slowly) when he should have help responsibility, he does not make the effort to get out to shooters, he does not attempt to make plays at the rim, he does not get back on defense. He looks incapable of staying in front of 4s, much less smaller players on switches. I disagree about the Memphis game. His defense on Jaren Jackson in the early 4th, both on the perimeter and on the drive, got Memphis back in the game before his offense closed it out. It is embarrassing how often smaller players get offensive rebounds in the game---he just doesn't try.

I hope that it becomes a meme and that, if anything people pay MORE attention to it. That certainly made James Harden from a catastrophic defender to an average one. Average would be wonderful right now. To get there, he has to figure out how to move his feet again on defense.

[tdcreator]

I don't think it's possible to trade for Cade right now. Nobody knows who will have what picks next year, it would be pointless speculation.

And by the time we do know who that pick would be, we'll also have another year of Zion on the books for us to make a real evaluation of, since it's hard to evaluate Zion properly given what a mess this year has been.

I'll put it this way. I'm not discussing trading Zion right now. But if in a year's time there's been no improvement at all from him on defense then we can discuss it, and it would be a very real discussion.

It is too early and we would have one more year of evaluation but after seeing what we’ve been doing I’ve just lost faith in our chemistry. I’m just really depressed and thought we’d be a lot better.

[Pelicanidae]

I hope that it becomes a meme and that, if anything people pay MORE attention to it. That certainly made James Harden from a catastrophic defender to an average one. Average would be wonderful right now. To get there, he has to figure out how to move his feet again on defense.

Harden is actually an excellent example of people not actually understanding how to watch defense.

Harden has never been a good defender in general, but he has been a good post and paint defender for years. This is not a new improvement that came cause he was embarrassed from memes. He was a good post defender when the memes were being made, people just don't know what they're looking at when it comes to defense so they watch him get blown by in transition and go ''LOL HARDEN, MORE LIKE HAR_EN CAUSE THERE'S NO D!!! LOL!''

Kind of people whose entire draft scouting process is youtube highlight compilations.

[Biasvasospasm]

Harden is actually an excellent example of people not actually understanding how to watch defense.

Harden has never been a good defender in general, but he has been a good post and paint defender for years. This is not a new improvement that came cause he was embarrassed from memes.

Sure, but he makes way fewer awful, zero effort plays now. He plays harder. He still gives up cuts, but he pays more attention now gets back-cut less. Part of it is that they moved from a conventional defense to a switch-everything defense, so his unwillingness to get over on screens matters less. He's always been a good post defender and he has always had a good sense for steals. He has always been a plus defender. But the key thing is effort level defensively is less egregiously bad.

I'm an optimistic dude, and I loved Zion at Duke, too. But his effort defensively and on the defensive glass has been unacceptable. It has to get better for this to be a good defensive team.

[Wowowowow]

At this point, I’m convinced anyone who thinks Zion is a bad defender doesn’t know basketball. I’m not being sarcastic neither. I hear this from people who haven’t stepped on the court in their life and it’s mind boggling.
He’s flat out amazing laterally.




This type of diss of his defense would show up in highlights. So I I challenge anyone who thinks his defense is bad to post time stamps.

During the last 2 games he played, I thought he was amazing and the only thing I would get on him on as a coach is on the first video, a vet would have cleaned up Lonzos zzz and in the 2nd video...if you think he’s suppose to be a lightening perimeter player, he should have chased down Kawhi at the 1:30 mark (2nd post will have that video)

That’s it.

Effort? Watch closely at his recovery time. Who’s involved in the smart help defenses and who’s not. Quiet as kept, Jrues a GREAT on ball defender...but I’ve always said he has rookie mental breakdowns a lot when it comes to smart logical defensive switches and if you watch the Kings game closely, you will notice them. Even in these highlights.

I challenge anyone. Just post the timestamps.

[Wowowowow]

Please post the time stamps

[new city champ]

The question is how the hell someone puts on a ''slug of bad weight'' in 2 weeks. How much weight can you put on in two weeks? Certainly not 20lbs or more, you'd have to be eating so much and doing absolutely zero movement at all.

If he left the bubble at, say, 260, and came back at 267, then that's one thing. But the way people talk about him and the way his minutes have been handled are as if he left at 250lbs and came back at 285. Which is just impossible.

How big are you? Not being sarcastic, just wondering about your life experience. I’m not as big as Zion, but I hang around 250, give or take. A few summers ago I was doing a Keto diet and working out and dropped a bunch of weight. Then I badly turned my ankle playing pick up and was laid up for 3 weeks during which I did nothing and ate a lot of pizza, pasta and comfort food. I gained 17 pounds. Just saying if Zion was training hard and really watching his nutrition then went home for two weeks, sat around and ate whatever he wanted, a 15-20 pound weight gain is not out of the question, believe me...

[Pelicanidae]

How big are you? Not being sarcastic, just wondering about your life experience. I’m not as big as Zion, but I hang around 250, give or take. A few summers ago I was doing a Keto diet and working out and dropped a bunch of weight. Then I badly turned my ankle playing pick up and was laid up for 3 weeks during which I did nothing and ate a lot of pizza, pasta and comfort food. I gained 17 pounds. Just saying if Zion was training hard and really watching his nutrition then went home for two weeks, sat around and ate whatever he wanted, a 15-20 pound weight gain is not out of the question, believe me...

I'm a bigger guy. Not actually sure what I weigh right now, but I have been hefty. Even now, after having dropped a ton of weight, I'm still on the heavier side. So I'm very familiar with the idea of quick weight gain.

I just find it very hard to believe that someone in extremely good condition (as we were led to believe he was) could put on 20+ pounds in just under 2 weeks. You just outlined a worst case scenario: zero exercise, completely unmonitored diet, for 3 weeks. Zion presumably was still at least mobile and going about life normally, presumably was at least being semi-sensible in his eating, and it was under 2 weeks. Given that, I wouldn't be surprised if he put on some weight, but the conversation surrounding Zion seems to be implying at least 20lbs, which is just such a huge gain for such little time.