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There was one play a few games back where Hayes bumbled a rebound or lost the ball (can't remember exactly what) and BI took him to the side and good naturedly coached him up a bit. The way Jackson was listening to him, you could just see the respect. I was on the LA player's side during the Great AD Trade Debates but I really had no clue just how special that guy would be. In all facets.Originally Posted by WildlifeAirGrp
BI, Zion, and CJ had a net rating of +3 when on the court together. BI and Zion had a +13.4, BI and CJ had a +13.2, Zion and CJ was just +5.4.
BI and Zion worked. BI and CJ worked. It was CJ and Zion and all three together that didn't work.
His defense was good. And he hustled and played within the offense for the most part. It also helps that they were playing him with Holiday a lot too. NAW looked good with Holiday. When he gets out of his slump, he’s going to be crazy good as Holiday’s running mate.
We have a strong future when we get healthy. Last night was a breath of fresh air for my fandom. To see Jrue in classic form and know that BI and Zion will be on the floor soon helped a lot.
Getting healthy could also hurt. When Ingram, Hart, Okafor, and Ball returns, that could hurt ball movement, lose consistent dribble penetration, and less shots and minutes to go around. Not to mention it can hurt the defensive chemistry. Gentry doesn’t seem to do well with too many options at his disposal when it comes to in game management of the rotation.
But then we would be able to diagnose what exactly isn't working and what is without having the built in excuse of injuries. I am a huge BI fan. I love his game, but until we have Zion on the court with him, we just won't know if a max contract is a logical solution. We need to know what pieces work and what to move.
I just think we need more time, to be honest, before we decide anything. We still have 71 games to go
Take your Ingram example. He's been waaaaaay better this season than I thought he would. He's due some regression, sure, and we've already seen some of it (he was shooting 68% from midrange, for example, about 5 games in and now he's down to about 60, which is still absurdly high and it may even drop somewhat from there, but it just demonstrates the point), but he has been much more willing to play off-ball, and his three point shooting has shot up in both volume and accuracy. Again, there may be some regression there (and already has been, in volume: he was shooting 50% on 6.4 a game through 5 games, and that's fallen to 46% on 5.4 through 9 games; still very very good, but it is a slight regression), but even if he only ended up around 4 3PAs a game at 40%, that would still be very good.
But the question is, is it impactful, or is it empty? So far, Ingram has been a -14.4 on/off. Is that just a result of the multiple losses early? It definitely could be, Jrue was at a similarly awful on/off until last game, which improved him a little bit (still a -10 on/off, but that's an improvement). According to NBA tracking data, opponents are shooting about 2.6% better than their overall averages when guarded by Ingram. Is that just early season bad luck, given how many high level teams we've played, combined with the general bad-ness of our defense, or is his lack of strength on the inside and his relatively slow feet dragging him down? Again, could be either.
We need more data. We need more games, to see more matchups, to let the averages settle a little, and to get the team healthier so we can actually see what we look like before we decide who to trade or who to max or who to extend or who to let walk. This is why I said I was reserving judgement until around Christmas, and that was before the Zion injury even happened. Given the impact of the Zion injury, it might be more sensible to wait until maybe the middle of January before making real judgements.
Basketball.
I would like to see Ingram play his natural position. I feel like he gets scored on a lot cause it’s against bigs.
I just think we need more time, to be honest, before we decide anything. We still have 71 games to go
Take your Ingram example. He's been waaaaaay better this season than I thought he would. He's due some regression, sure, and we've already seen some of it (he was shooting 68% from midrange, for example, about 5 games in and now he's down to about 60, which is still absurdly high and it may even drop somewhat from there, but it just demonstrates the point), but he has been much more willing to play off-ball, and his three point shooting has shot up in both volume and accuracy. Again, there may be some regression there (and already has been, in volume: he was shooting 50% on 6.4 a game through 5 games, and that's fallen to 46% on 5.4 through 9 games; still very very good, but it is a slight regression), but even if he only ended up around 4 3PAs a game at 40%, that would still be very good.
But the question is, is it impactful, or is it empty? So far, Ingram has been a -14.4 on/off. Is that just a result of the multiple losses early? It definitely could be, Jrue was at a similarly awful on/off until last game, which improved him a little bit (still a -10 on/off, but that's an improvement). According to NBA tracking data, opponents are shooting about 2.6% better than their overall averages when guarded by Ingram. Is that just early season bad luck, given how many high level teams we've played, combined with the general bad-ness of our defense, or is his lack of strength on the inside and his relatively slow feet dragging him down? Again, could be either.
We need more data. We need more games, to see more matchups, to let the averages settle a little, and to get the team healthier so we can actually see what we look like before we decide who to trade or who to max or who to extend or who to let walk. This is why I said I was reserving judgement until around Christmas, and that was before the Zion injury even happened. Given the impact of the Zion injury, it might be more sensible to wait until maybe the middle of January before making real judgements.
Totally plausible. It could also be a result of just the bad scheme/bad team defense overall. I'm certainly not blaming him for the defense being poor in general.
It's for these reasons that I think we need to see the team play together longer, preferably with better health, before we start making trade plans, or extension plans, or max contract plans, etc.
Yea I agree. Just based on the eye test, I don't think Ingram is a below average defender. With how absurdly good his offense has been, he really only needs to be average on D.
He gets pushed around against bigs, but he's a traditional wing. He shouldn't have to bang on the block. Additionally he was really hurt by the amount of minutes Okafor had to play with Favors out. I think thats an aspect of the starters' +/- that should be recognized. You're going from an elite rim protector to a below average one.
I am certainly not a proponent of trading anybody. I like what we have. I think we need time. I did some halfway research after this post and based on preseason games with Zion (I did say halfway), BI was hovering around 20.82 ppg on an average 32.1 minutes per game with Zion on the court. If he averaged 36 minute he would have been around 23.35 ppg. I would certainly take a second option scorer with any ppg average between those numbers if they defended.
I just think we need more time, to be honest, before we decide anything. We still have 71 games to go
Take your Ingram example. He's been waaaaaay better this season than I thought he would. He's due some regression, sure, and we've already seen some of it (he was shooting 68% from midrange, for example, about 5 games in and now he's down to about 60, which is still absurdly high and it may even drop somewhat from there, but it just demonstrates the point), but he has been much more willing to play off-ball, and his three point shooting has shot up in both volume and accuracy. Again, there may be some regression there (and already has been, in volume: he was shooting 50% on 6.4 a game through 5 games, and that's fallen to 46% on 5.4 through 9 games; still very very good, but it is a slight regression), but even if he only ended up around 4 3PAs a game at 40%, that would still be very good.
But the question is, is it impactful, or is it empty? So far, Ingram has been a -14.4 on/off. Is that just a result of the multiple losses early? It definitely could be, Jrue was at a similarly awful on/off until last game, which improved him a little bit (still a -10 on/off, but that's an improvement). According to NBA tracking data, opponents are shooting about 2.6% better than their overall averages when guarded by Ingram. Is that just early season bad luck, given how many high level teams we've played, combined with the general bad-ness of our defense, or is his lack of strength on the inside and his relatively slow feet dragging him down? Again, could be either.
We need more data. We need more games, to see more matchups, to let the averages settle a little, and to get the team healthier so we can actually see what we look like before we decide who to trade or who to max or who to extend or who to let walk. This is why I said I was reserving judgement until around Christmas, and that was before the Zion injury even happened. Given the impact of the Zion injury, it might be more sensible to wait until maybe the middle of January before making real judgements.
It would really help a lot of people out if they would look at this like it's a loooooong preseason.
Because it is. This season was never about this year. It was always to set up the future.
Nah they are trying to win this year. This team has plenty cap flexibility and future picks they don't need to tank or throw games away.
Just look at it for what it is, super early in the year.
Since Derrick Favors has come back to regular starter minutes, all the bad team stat categories have improved.
Last 3 games with healthy Favors:
Rebound % - 6th
Offensive reb % - 4th
Defensive rating - 18th
It's not about tanking or throwing games away. So yeah, the team isn't tanking. But it's not about doing everything to win as much as they can, either. The entire purpose of this season is to experiment with the players to figure out what does and doesn't work, get the young guys needed experience, and showcase some young potential to pair with some draft picks to net another all-star.
Every game (that we have enough players) so many people are complaining about the weird lineup combinations, the bad timing on substitutions, etc....that's because the complainers thinking about winning now and the Pels are going in just wanting to experiment and get experience. If we win, awesome, but they aren't going to sacrifice the tweaking to chase the wins.
Relax and enjoy the season. Don't set your own fan bar too high.
Last edited by msusousaphone; 11-16-2019 at 01:59 AM.
Well its not. They are doing everything they can to win short of trading away the cap and future picks. Griff has said numerous times they are trying to set a winning culture.
There can be nothing worse than to start Zion's career on a L,L,L,L,L,W,L type team. Then you're firing the head coach and his staff and starting over with entirely new systems to learn. Do not want that cycle.
If that was the case, then no way they go sign Redick and Favors and keep Jrue when they could have easily traded him.
Experimenting the entire year is NOT the objective.
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