Off-Season Workout Stuff

[Pelicanidae]

Now, obviously we all know that off-season workout videos can be extremely misleading. They are selectively edited, at the very least: if a player has been ''working on their three point shot'', they aren't going to put out a video that shows them bricking threes. Instead, we get videos in which players shoot 90+% from everywhere on the floor, including taking shots they would rarely take in game, if ever.

That said, they're not entirely useless. They do show form, they do show the physical shape a player may be in, and they can show some progress in certain areas of the game if the videos are shown in raw enough form.

We've had a lot of off-season workout videos for Pelicans players this year, and largely they're just workouts: weightlifting, running drills, etc. But we're hitting the point of the off-season where we will get gym montages on the actual court, and sometimes those can be fun to talk about. So here's a thread for this.

We can start it with this video, of Lonzo:

Lonzo back in the lab 🔥

(#Repost via @ZO2_ / @ProsVision1) #Pelicans pic.twitter.com/Y2ntWiVsNZ

— New Orleans Pelicans (@PelicansNBA) August 19, 2019

There are some good signs in this, beyond just the standard workout video stuff. One thing I've noticed, and some other people have too, is that his three point release is different. It's not 100% textbook perfect, not at all, there are still issues with it from a technical side, but it looks much much better than it used to. Elbows are brought under control, and that strange sideways launch it always had has been pulled much closer to being in line. If his old shot was 100% off, this one is more like only 30% off, and you can work with that.

Downsides to it exist, and they can basically be boiled down to the fact that it's a slower release. But if he's more accurate with it, which seems certainly possible, then that could be huge, especially on catch and shoot style shots. If Lonzo can be even just a league average three point shooter, that will help his game and the team a LOT. More exciting than even just the three point shooting though is the implications this could have on the free throw game: if he's reworked his three pointer, it's likely that he's reworked his FT shooting.

I've said before that I don't expect someone to go from shooting 41% from the FT to 80%, at least not in one season, but if he can improve even to a 60, or 65% FT shooter like Andre Drummond did a few years back, that would be huge as well. Would make it easier to keep him on the floor later in games, and would hopefully give him more confidence in driving knowing that he could actually take contact without wasting the possession. And that would make his passing more deadly as well.

Extremely good signs here!

[Sleeper]

Now, obviously we all know that off-season workout videos can be extremely misleading. They are selectively edited, at the very least: if a player has been ''working on their three point shot'', they aren't going to put out a video that shows them bricking threes. Instead, we get videos in which players shoot 90+% from everywhere on the floor, including taking shots they would rarely take in game, if ever.

That said, they're not entirely useless. They do show form, they do show the physical shape a player may be in, and they can show some progress in certain areas of the game if the videos are shown in raw enough form.

We've had a lot of off-season workout videos for Pelicans players this year, and largely they're just workouts: weightlifting, running drills, etc. But we're hitting the point of the off-season where we will get gym montages on the actual court, and sometimes those can be fun to talk about. So here's a thread for this.

We can start it with this video, of Lonzo:

Lonzo back in the lab

(#Repost via @ZO2_ / @ProsVision1) #Pelicans pic.twitter.com/Y2ntWiVsNZ

— New Orleans Pelicans (@PelicansNBA) August 19, 2019

There are some good signs in this, beyond just the standard workout video stuff. One thing I've noticed, and some other people have too, is that his three point release is different. It's not 100% textbook perfect, not at all, there are still issues with it from a technical side, but it looks much much better than it used to. Elbows are brought under control, and that strange sideways launch it always had has been pulled much closer to being in line. If his old shot was 100% off, this one is more like only 30% off, and you can work with that.

Downsides to it exist, and they can basically be boiled down to the fact that it's a slower release. But if he's more accurate with it, which seems certainly possible, then that could be huge, especially on catch and shoot style shots. If Lonzo can be even just a league average three point shooter, that will help his game and the team a LOT. More exciting than even just the three point shooting though is the implications this could have on the free throw game: if he's reworked his three pointer, it's likely that he's reworked his FT shooting.

I've said before that I don't expect someone to go from shooting 41% from the FT to 80%, at least not in one season, but if he can improve even to a 60, or 65% FT shooter like Andre Drummond did a few years back, that would be huge as well. Would make it easier to keep him on the floor later in games, and would hopefully give him more confidence in driving knowing that he could actually take contact without wasting the possession. And that would make his passing more deadly as well.

Extremely good signs here!

Many many comments from Lakers fans that his form looks completely different. That is indeed very encouraging.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pelicanidae]

Many many comments from Lakers fans that his form looks completely different. That is indeed very encouraging.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For sure. The form is not perfect, it doesn't look like a Ray Allen shot or anything, but it's just clearly better than what it was.

Before, it had an awkward flinging motion that brought his right arm all the way in front of his face so that I don't think he could even see the hoop with both eyes at the moment of release, and the trajectory of the ball was not straight because it was coming from so far to the left. The lack of a straight line from the legs up through the torso into the shot also meant that it was difficult to get consistent power and arc behind it.

Now, it's still a little low, still a little off-line, still a little weird, but it's no way near as far left as it was. I'm more confident that he can actually see the hoop properly with this shot, and it's far more of a smooth relationship between feet, hips, and shoulders. Is it perfect? No. Is it FAR better? Definitely. Excited to see if that actually sticks for him, because it would be great.

[Nichols]

I like the form, I don't like that he brings the rock down then back up before his release. Overall the J does look improved from a form standpoint.

[Pelicanidae]

I like the form, I don't like that he brings the rock down then back up before his release. Overall the J does look improved from a form standpoint.

That's one of the issues with it. Makes it take far too long. If he's primarily acting as a catch and shoot player, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, but it will present a real issue if he's planning on bombing off the dribble a lot.

Still, like you said, does look improved.

[DroopyDawg]

Shooting form is great to analyze but at the end of the release the question is... does the shot go through the net with relative consistency?

Here’s a good list and they’re missing Reggie Miller of all people.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2018/07/23...hooting-forms/

[Pelicanidae]

Shooting form is great to analyze but at the end of the release the question is... does the shot go through the net with relative consistency?

Here’s a good list and they’re missing Reggie Miller of all people.

https://fadeawayworld.net/2018/07/23...hooting-forms/

The fact that there are exceptions to the rule doesn't change the fact that better form usually helps shooting.

Some people make it work with broken forms. Sure. Lonzo didn't. We have seen enough of him to know that his shot just doesn't work. So of course it's a good thing for him to rework it. If his shot was weird but he was shooting 40%, nobody could care too much, but instead his shot was weird and people were just walking away from him at the three point line. So it needed changing, and it's good to see that he's doing it.

I'd like to note as well, that despite the hyperbolic tone of the article, most of the names listed there didn't have shots nearly as bad as Lonzo's was. They call Ingle's shot ''broke beyond repair'', which is absurd. Is Ingles' shot perfect? No. But at least he maintained eye-line to the hoop and releases the ball in a straight line up from the ground. Lonzo was shooting with his arm in front of his face and the ball coming from way off to the left. If Ingles' shot is ''broke beyond repair'', what does that make Lonzo's old shot? A shot which, as we're seeing, is actually being repaired?

[DroopyDawg]

I still don't know how the heII Lonzo shot from over his opposite shoulder. Sheesh.

[As I See It]

LB's shot is fugly. That said I'd much prefer a fugly shot that goes in over a textbook shot that doesn't. My Lord, nobody had a uglier shot than Hall of Famer, Jamaal Wilkes (formerly Keith). Does anyone remember Don Nelson's jump shot?

[Pelicanidae]

That said I'd much prefer a fugly shot that goes in over a textbook shot that doesn't.

Same

Shame that Lonzo's old shot was neither aesthetic nor accurate. Hopefully this new form, which is much closer to textbook while still being a bit wonky, is slightly more on target.

[Eman5805]

I'd like Lonzo to simplify the stroke simply because the more motions it takes, the worst the shot will be under duress and when fatigue sets in. Not saying everyone needs a stroke like Curry or Klay, but it makes things simpler.

Whatever shot Lonzo has, as long as he's done it so much it's become rote, I don't care. Make shots.

[Pelicanidae]

Everyone on the planet should have Ray Allen's jumper. It's a trick played on us by God that this isn't the case.

[Pelicanidae]

Jrue Holiday has been putting in a lot of work to improve his stepback jumper this summer.

(Video via @swishcultures_) pic.twitter.com/ItVgwwYNHV

— Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) August 21, 2019

Obviously this is just the one video (although it's a compilation, so I guess whatever that means, it's there) but there have been a bunch of videos this summer of Jrue hitting stepbacks all over the court.

Now, Jrue's had a weird career as a shooter. For his first 370 games, he shot 37% from three. In the subsequent 280, he's shot 33.8%. It's not that he's getting more attention from defenders now than he was then either, because back then he was the number one primary scorer on those awful Philly teams, and his usage rate hovered around the same as his usage rate is here in New Orleans. Part of me suspects its to do with his leg injuries that he had, but then, he shot 39% and 37.8% respectively in his first two years here in NOLA, and he was dealing with those leg injuries then. If anything, his shooting has gotten worse the further in the past his injury has become.

He shot 32.5% from three last year: by a comfortable margin his career low. If you were going to have one knock on Jrue as a player, it's probably that he's not the shooter that you wish he was. But by the looks of it, he's putting in a lot of work in shooting this season, and if he can incorporate a solid stepback into his arsenal while getting back up to speed as a shooter (35%+) then that would help him (and us) a lot. Hell, if we're hoping, we might as well hope big: if Jrue returns to his Philly days as a shooter and shoots 37% or better from 3 this year on similar volume to last year (5.4 per game) then do those MVP aspirations Griff mentioned become a lot more realistic?

Right now he's an elite defender, high quality playmaker and passer, good rebounder for a guard (though not record breakingly good or anything), and a very efficient interior scorer who can get to the rim at will and control the pace of an offense. If he adds a high quality off the dribble jumper with stepback abilities in it, we could easily be looking at close to 25ppg this year on an all-defensive guy who ends up top 10 in apg. That's bonkers.

[hornetsrebirth]

Jrue Holiday has been putting in a lot of work to improve his stepback jumper this summer.

(Video via @swishcultures_) pic.twitter.com/ItVgwwYNHV

— Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) August 21, 2019

Obviously this is just the one video (although it's a compilation, so I guess whatever that means, it's there) but there have been a bunch of videos this summer of Jrue hitting stepbacks all over the court.

Now, Jrue's had a weird career as a shooter. For his first 370 games, he shot 37% from three. In the subsequent 280, he's shot 33.8%. It's not that he's getting more attention from defenders now than he was then either, because back then he was the number one primary scorer on those awful Philly teams, and his usage rate hovered around the same as his usage rate is here in New Orleans. Part of me suspects its to do with his leg injuries that he had, but then, he shot 39% and 37.8% respectively in his first two years here in NOLA, and he was dealing with those leg injuries then. If anything, his shooting has gotten worse the further in the past his injury has become.

He shot 32.5% from three last year: by a comfortable margin his career low. If you were going to have one knock on Jrue as a player, it's probably that he's not the shooter that you wish he was. But by the looks of it, he's putting in a lot of work in shooting this season, and if he can incorporate a solid stepback into his arsenal while getting back up to speed as a shooter (35%+) then that would help him (and us) a lot. Hell, if we're hoping, we might as well hope big: if Jrue returns to his Philly days as a shooter and shoots 37% or better from 3 this year on similar volume to last year (5.4 per game) then do those MVP aspirations Griff mentioned become a lot more realistic?

Right now he's an elite defender, high quality playmaker and passer, good rebounder for a guard (though not record breakingly good or anything), and a very efficient interior scorer who can get to the rim at will and control the pace of an offense. If he adds a high quality off the dribble jumper with stepback abilities in it, we could easily be looking at close to 25ppg this year on an all-defensive guy who ends up top 10 in apg. That's bonkers.

I'd like to see some catch and shoot to go with the stepback highlights

[Pelicanidae]

I'd like to see some catch and shoot to go with the stepback highlights

I'd like to see a lot of stuff that we don't usually get to see in off-season workout videos

I agree though, roughly half of Jrue's 3pt attempts in any given year are assisted, and if he's going to be taking a lot of threes off the catch, hopefully he's practising them. He's been pretty inconsistent on catch and shoot attempts over the last few years too: he shot only 35% or so on them last season, but shot 39.5% the year before. If he can replicate that 39.5%, that would definitely be nice.

[Mythrol]

I think Jrue's issue was he was having to change his game and where his focus was when we were building around Davis. He needed to try and be an attack driving guard so he spent his time working on that.

Now as a team we have more than enough ball handling that Jrue can focus on his off ball shooting and deep threat again.

[Pelicanidae]

I think Jrue's issue was he was having to change his game and where his focus was when we were building around Davis. He needed to try and be an attack driving guard so he spent his time working on that.

Now as a team we have more than enough ball handling that Jrue can focus on his off ball shooting and deep threat again.

Totally hope you're right, and it sounds plausible enough.

If Jrue can maintain all-defensive quality, while dishing out 6+ assists per game and incorporate a legitimate three point threat into his already powerful offensive game, he should be a sure-fire allstar, sure-fire all-NBA guy (remember Klay and KD won't be taking up spots, Paul George may not play enough games to qualify depending on when he comes back, etc) and yes, very possibly in that MVP conversation depending on record.

[KevinDavis1022]

I like that Lonzo is at least trying to fix his jumpshot. It probably will be another year before it's 100% ingrained in his mind and committed to muscle memory, because if I remember correctly, Lavar said that he's shot the ball in that weird fashion since he was young. It's gonna take time to break that habit.

[KevinDavis1022]

As for Jrue, I think his numbers dipped slightly because he had so much on his plate. Having to defend the best wing player every night, then having to be a distributor at times wore him down. Will he shoot 40%? Highly unlikely. But if he can get himself into that 37% range, that's more than enough for me.

[Pelicanidae]

"That ain't what he want."

Rondo gassing up this Jrue Holiday and Quincey Pondexter matchup ��

(via @swishcultures_, mikepenber3/Instagram) pic.twitter.com/RdEEOmhfw3

— NBA on ESPN (@ESPNNBA) August 23, 2019

It's always fun watching Jrue put clamps on people

[luckyman]

I like that Lonzo is at least trying to fix his jumpshot. It probably will be another year before it's 100% ingrained in his mind and committed to muscle memory, because if I remember correctly, Lavar said that he's shot the ball in that weird fashion since he was young. It's gonna take time to break that habit.

I guess the question is why didnt Lavar step in and fix it then?

[Pelicanidae]

I guess the question is why didnt Lavar step in and fix it then?

Answer: Lavar's dumb.

[ColoradoCajun]

For sure. The form is not perfect, it doesn't look like a Ray Allen shot or anything, but it's just clearly better than what it was.

Before, it had an awkward flinging motion that brought his right arm all the way in front of his face so that I don't think he could even see the hoop with both eyes at the moment of release, and the trajectory of the ball was not straight because it was coming from so far to the left. The lack of a straight line from the legs up through the torso into the shot also meant that it was difficult to get consistent power and arc behind it.

Now, it's still a little low, still a little off-line, still a little weird, but it's no way near as far left as it was. I'm more confident that he can actually see the hoop properly with this shot, and it's far more of a smooth relationship between feet, hips, and shoulders. Is it perfect? No. Is it FAR better? Definitely. Excited to see if that actually sticks for him, because it would be great.

A freezer of frozen money looks more like a Ray Allen 3 than any shots Lonzo put up last year. You know, cuz it's ice cold. And money.

[KevinDavis1022]

I guess the question is why didnt Lavar step in and fix it then?

Well if it was going in, I guess don't mess with success. Unfortunately it caught up with him in the NBA because guys can close out on him with that slow wind up.

[luckyman]

Well if it was going in, I guess don't mess with success. Unfortunately it caught up with him in the NBA because guys can close out on him with that slow wind up.

At no point in his life was that ugly thing ever going in. ...she said.