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Is Brandon Ingram better than Ben Simmons?
The article is mostly about Ben Simmons contract being a starting point for Ingram next season, but it does make some fantastic assumptions. I was curious as to if he lives up to his potential, would folks here want to spend the money?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/christo.../#477d4c8b18be
Last edited by Pilot172000; 08-01-2019 at 01:38 PM.
Ben got an ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS CONTRACT! Never in NBA history has a guy who literally CAN NOT SHOOT gotten such a massive contract. I was passed when they offered him that.
That being said. Ingram is NOT worth a max deal. He’s a very good player that deserves a very good contract. Before offing a big contest he needs to do a few things.
1. Prove that his blood clot won’t be an issue going forward.
2. He needs to become a better team flow player. I’m an ex lakers fan. Most of the time he gets the ball he shot the ball. Rarely distributed it after he got it. I want to see him get other players involved and take better shots instead of forcing things.
3. I’d like a slightly better attitude out of him. He has this... in hard vibe about him all the time. On and off the court he has it.
LOL. Sixers just overpaid another player that can’t shoot.
Going into the season, I see Ingram as a star with no star quality. He has half a season to change my mind. Undone, I would move him at mid-year. Like the guy who just left town...he's doesn't seem to be a player you can count on game in and game out (not all his fault). In my mind, only "Alphas" (like Leonard, James, Curry, and Durant) merit max contracts.
Is Ben Simmons ''worth'' the max deal? Maybe not. You can argue it. Personally, I think his value to the Sixers in particular is pretty huge, and I understand why they did it, but it's a question worth debating.
It's not really a debate right now about Ingram. Simmons is better than Ingram right now, and has been for the last three years. Maybe that will change in the future, it's certainly possible, but it's not a serious argument at this moment in time.
Basketball.
Simmons is worth a Under 7 year service MAX. It's not his fault that they got a 6'10" Point forward being the full time PG where shooting is a necessity. Any other team would have him playing the 4, but he is really good with the ball in his hand and Fultz bust. Fultz busting and Kawhi crazy game winner caused Philly FO to lose their mind and forced this weird new Super TALL Philly group with worse shooting. I guess they bringing defense back to the fold. I don't think that'll stop officiating from babying shooters or their lack of spacing.Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
Last edited by Taker597; 07-30-2019 at 12:06 PM.
I also agree, I do think Simmons is worth the money for Philly. I'm just saying that there is some argument about that, and that that particular argument is fair and you can have a real discussion about it.
You can't really have a serious discussion about Ingram being better at this point. It's an absurd comparison. One is debatably a top 25 player in the NBA, the other is teetering on the edge of a starter role.
Think about it this way: Philly extended that offer with very little hesitation. Meanwhile, we're asking ourselves whether Ingram's going to even be worth keeping after this year. That tells you a lot about their relative values.
I think Ingram is going to be the better player when it’s all said and done. IMO both will be equally stars in their own way. When you factor in the difference in contracts I think it’s no question we will have the better value over that deal. Ingram is going to get big $ but not stupid $ like Simmons.
I like the comparison with Ball and Simmons a lot. I believe Lonzo is someone who will turn out very similar to Simmons but as a PG. They both have very similar skill sets and styles of play just at different positions. Lonzo currently is a much better shooter while Simmons is better around the basket.
Last edited by GuardianAngel25; 07-30-2019 at 09:57 PM.
Coming from another Lakers fan (current Pels fan).
Ingram does not have a blood clot issue period..
Ingram being a selfish player is another mischaracterization. When he was asked to facilitate and play point, that's what he did. When he was asked to play the 2 which is a shooting guard, that's what he did.
Also you won't find a single individual in the coaching staff up to the front office of the Lakers organization who would tell you that Ingram had an issue with his attitude. He got glowing reviews on how he conducted himself on and off court.
If Ingram can replicate his play post all-star break last season for the duration of a season, he is in my opinion a better player than Simmons. He is certainly trending in the right direction.
Totally agree. If Ingram can replicate the 10 game stretch that was the best 10 games of his entire career by far for the duration of at least 70 games, then there will be an argument.
This also presuming Simmons doesn't have a J.. Been seeing some recent scrimmages of him and the J looks much improved. If he indeed has a solid J we're looking at one of the best players in the league. With that being said actual NBA game play is different from off season scrimmaging with your pals.
Exactly. Clint Capela actually tweeted this recently, and he's right: ''everybody can shoot in July''. It's just the truth, I remember seeing workout videos from last summer where Okafor was bombing threes, and then he shot 22% in season.
Simmons' jumper isn't as encouraging for me as it has for some others. He tends to twist in mid-air to line up body up properly, and his wrist has some really weird floppy action as he releases the ball. Obviously it's not anywhere near as bad as Noah's, but the actual wrist motion reminds me a lot of Joakim Noah. I feel like there's a limit to how well you can shoot the ball with such dramatic body rotation and strange release mechanics, unless you're have transcendent touch, and Simmons just doesn't have touch like that.
WoW! Someone that actually watched their games and knows a little more about Ingram’s character coming from Duke then judging him as a “punk” because he isn’t super emotional.. I have a family member who is a Doctor and told me a long time ago Ingrams clot with a minor surgery is a non issue and nothing even close to what Chris Bosh had.
Ingram has been described by Coach K as the most gifted ball distributor he has ever had and could be a point guard if that’s what was asked of him. He was putting up near triple doubles each night when the Lakers had used him this way before Lebron came around. Not saying I think the offense is at its best when running through Ingram but he is extremely versatile allowing him to be effective in whatever role we make for him. Last season he was being used like he was Ray Allen until after the all star break when they decided to put the ball in his hands more often and involve him in the offense which had incredible results where he looked like Durant.
Right now I do not think he is better then Simmons but I believe he absolutely can be the better player. Imo Ingram becomes the better player of the 2 once they reach their primes. I will always bet on a hard worker and I have heard nothing but Ingram possesses a work ethic in that elite tier. Either way at worse imo we got a 2 way SF who in his prime will be a star caliber player.
Last edited by GuardianAngel25; 08-01-2019 at 02:49 PM.
Agreed, it took him a while to adjust to playing the point. As he acclimated he improved. I also agree that currently you have to give the nod to Simmons, but at their peak, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ingram is the better player. You're spot on with the hard worker label, he had to be locked out of the Lakers gym.
I don't know much at all about Ingram's work ethic or his personality. I've heard that he's pretty laid back and chill, and that's cool with me. I don't care how our players act (within reason of course) when they're off the court or out of the gym.
I do find it worrying though, if he's apparently a complete gym rat, that he's been unable to put on any significant weight in 3 years. You would think three years of NBA level gym work, nutrition, and weight training would have done something to his frame.
He's actually a lot stronger than he was as a rookie. He's come a long way. With that being said he may not ever put on that much weight. Reference Reggie Miller, and a few others. Time will tell.
I'm not talking about ''much'' weight. I'm not asking him to show up looking like Ben Wallace.
I'm saying he's 6'10 and 190lbs. You can't tell me with a straight face that, playing his current style of ball, his absolute ceiling isn't at least limited by the fact that he weighs 15lbs less than Jrue Holiday despite being 5+ inches taller.
Why would his ceiling be limited because of his weight? If anything that gives him a higher ceiling with just how much more he could even improve as he adds more weight and strength. If you had been following him since Duke you would know he has consistently added weight and strength. He weighed 196 lbs at the combine. He’s not someone that is going to look like Lebron but more Durant over time.. He is 21 years old and you are acting as if it must be he either doesn’t work in the gym or has a ceiling because he is maxed out. This kid doesn’t need much more then 10-15 lbs of muscle max while just continuing to get stronger.
Last edited by GuardianAngel25; 08-01-2019 at 08:31 PM.
I agree that his ceiling could improve IF he adds more weight and strength. The entire point of my post was that if he DOESN'T ever add that weight and strength, it will limit his ceiling. Literally the entire point of what I was saying.
Durant weighs FORTY POUNDS MORE than Ingram does. That's a LOT of weight. Durant is basically 7'0, 230lbs. Ingram is 6'9, 190lbs, according to his official measurements. Even if you say that official measurements aren't perfect (which is true, they can be wrong) and you say Ingram is 6'10, 200lbs, he's STILL much, much, much lighter than Durant. He's damn near 30lbs lighter than Hayes, and people are saying Hayes is so thin he needs a redshirt year!
I have never said he doesn't work out or spend time in the gym. I literally said I don't know his work ethic or his personality much. For all I know, he lives in the gym. That's totally fine, I'm willing to accept that, it's cool. Not disputing it. I'm saying that it hasn't, so far in his career, produced that much in the way of increased mass.
I've said this elsewhere, multiple times, and I will say it again: Ingram will NEVER be 250lbs. That's fine. He will probably never be 230lbs. That's fine. Some people just aren't built like that, and that's okay. But he NEEDS to put on some weight. He's listed as 190lbs. If that number is true, I think he should be aiming at 210lbs. Not huge, not massive, not Lebron, not Zion, not even DURANT but just a BIT heavier.
Can we please stop acting like someone saying ''Ingram's a little underweight, he'll be limited if he doesn't put on a little weight'' is the same as someone saying ''he has no work ethic! He's lazy! He won't get in the gym! He can't play basketball until he's 260lbs! I won't be happy until he looks like The Rock!'', because nobody is saying that.
Somehow Ingram weighed in at 196 lbs while Durant was 215 lbs.. Yet you are using Ingram’s official weight as 190 and Durant as 230.. That makes complete sense.. Like I said had you followed him since Duke and the combine you would know his weight is somewhere around 210-215 as he has added a good bit of weight and strength over this time. The exact weight you are saying he needs to be is right where he is around haha. Ingram is not a big man and is not going to be on the same plan AD was on with gaining weight as his main focus in the gym. Someone like Ingram will naturally put on weight and worry about core strength which is the most important area for him and not adding weight. He is just 21 years old and will naturally put on muscle like just about every single NBA player did from the age of 21.
If you go on the NBA's official statistics list, you see that Ingram is listed as 190lbs, and Durant is listed at 240lbs. I have said in the past, very clearly, that I fully accept that the official statistics can be (and often are) a little wrong. That's why I've said, again, multiple times, that whenever players sign with a new team it would be cool to get updates measurements. But given that Ingram did not actually take part in his draft combine, it's hard to say what weight he is.
If you're saying he was 196lbs, I'd like to know where that information comes from. He did not take part in his draft combine, so it can't be from that. This article https://www.gq.com/story/real-life-diet-brandon-ingram from January of 2018, which features an interview with Ingram himself, gives his weight at 190lbs. Is it wrong? Maybe, definitely could be. But it's a source with at least some direct connection to Ingram himself, whereas your claim that he's actually 215 just appears to have come out of absolutely nowhere. The absolute highest weight I've ever seen for Ingram is from ESPN's Duke commitment list before he started in college, which gave his weight as 198lbs, and again, that was not an official, publicly available measurement like a combine weigh-in is. That's still 12lbs short of the weight I gave as a rough estimate of where his goal is, and even that appears to be an optimistic measurement.
At 215, he'd be within 5lbs of Aaron Gordon, and would be the same weight as Andre Iguodala. That's clearly not correct, as both of those guys are significantly bulkier, more muscular, and heavier than Ingram is. And it's not even like it's a height thing, because Aaron Gordon is also 6'9, 6'10. There is no universe in which Ingram weighs the same (or within 5lbs of) Aaron Gordon.
I'll just leave this here. Seems to have no fear going at AD
I'm hoping that Ingram's struggles with putting on and holding quality weight is a result of his injuries. I don't think he's ever gone into an off-season fully healthy and able to just spend a whole summer in the gym. He's always recovering, and having to take big gaps out of his training routine. Hopefully that's why he's been unable to really improve his shape much. Remember back at the press conference where he said he still hadn't even really picked up a basketball since his blood clot? If he's not even doing much basketball training, there's no way he's been hitting the weight room with any kind of intensity.
He did say that he's probably only a few weeks away though, so maybe that's his only issue, and he'll be able to spend the next 6 weeks, 2 months, under Aaron Nelson and really start getting himself into the shape he wants to be in.
He really could be a solid point guard full time if given the opportunity.I'll just leave this here. Seems to have no fear going at AD
You misunderstood boss lol.. I didn't mean "much" weight. I said "he may not ever put on that much weight." I'd be happy with an additional 15. Though that's not even a given.
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