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NBA Player Tiers:Originally Posted by Mythrol
Tier One: Brandon Ingram
Tier Two: Lebron James, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant
Tier Three: Anthony Davis, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Giannis Antetokounmpo,
Tier Four: Russell Westbrook, Paul George, Nikola Jokic, Joel Embiid, Damian Lillard, Chris Paul
Tier Five: Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Karl Anthony-Towns, Ben Simmons, Jrue Holiday
Basketball.
Interesting responses.. His game will have to do the convincing, and will be the arbiter between the believers and non believers. I'm confident it will become apparent that the concerns and criticisms were unwarranted. Rarely do debates on matters such as this end with anyone acknowledging they were wrong about anything, or an actual change in perspective no matter how convincing the counter arguments.
I hope I'm wrong about Ingram. I hope that the change in culture, the lower media environment, the lower win-now expectations, etc, of New Orleans really help him out and that our coaching/training staff can help him unlock the parts of his game that are missing.
If I'm wrong about him, and he figures out team defense and regains at least decent three point shooting, I'll admit it. I hope that this happens. I've admitted when I've been wrong before (most prominently, I didn't think that Trae Young would translate to the NBA as well as he has. I thought his passing would fall off dramatically and that he'd be a sieve on defense. He is awful on defense, so I was right there, but his passing has carried on working and I was wrong on that), so I'll happily admit that I was overly negative if Ingram is able to step up.
lol
There's nothing to be wrong about. If he develops great! The issue is between where people think he already is vs reality. The fact that stats say he has been below average to extremely poor so far in the NBA overall is based on overwhelming data...
Yet a couple of tweets about him having a good defensive game and suddenly "he always was asked to guard the hardest player on the opponents wing" and "Find me a 21 year old with less holes in his game?"
This has nothing to do with the future. This is people making insane claims based on his past which is absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah, just to leapfrog off that idea that Ingram was asked to guard the hardest opposing wing every night... you guys know you can look up defensive matchups, right?
Ingram's most-guarded opponents last season (that is, the players for whom Ingram was their most frequent primary defender) were: Justin Holiday, Garrett Temple, Avery Bradley, Tyreke Evans, Andrew Wiggins, Chandler Hutchison, CJ McCollum, Evan Fournier, Royce O'Neal, and Paul George.
That's his top ten most guarded opponents. Of that list, there are only two names (three, if we're being extremely generous to Wiggins) who are legitimate star offensive players.
And those two players are not the best offensive threat on their team. So Ingram was very clearly not asked to guard the hardest player on the wing. Or let's phrase it as.... Two other just as equally challenging or more players are present on those teams and are the main offensive initiator.
Last edited by Mythrol; 06-28-2019 at 09:42 AM.
I've been a Lakers fan for at least 35 years. Pretty much watched all of their games. In some cases Ingram was preserved to guard those players I mentioned in the fourth quarter. I'm not going to lie and say he did something that he didn't. I've watched him lock up Paul George, Jimmy Butler, and Kyrie. If he's plugged into a system that facilitates good team defense, coupled with the personnel willing and capable of executing, you'll see a good team defender in Ingram. Those conditions were non existent for the better part of his stint with the Lakers.
Brandon Ingram 41.6 30.7 DFG% Second row 3PT percentage..
Klay 43.8 37.9
Kawhi 42.7 33.3
Draymon Green 45.4 40.4
Paul George 44.9 51.5
Those are some notable defenders, the numbers in no way validates the narrative that he's a sub-par defender.
No getting around the fact that individuals FG percentages dip when guarded by Ingram.
21 Years Old - Per 36 Min.:
Code:
Name PPG (TS%) RPG (RBD%) APG (AST%) SPG (STL%) BPG (BLK%)
Pippen: N/A
Leonard: 13.7 PPG (59.2%) 6.9 RPG (11.1%) 1.8 APG (7.7%) 1.9 SPG (2.9%) 0.6 BPG (1.1%)
Giannis: 17.2 PPG (56.6%) 7.8 RPG (12.4%) 4.4 APG (20.0%) 1.2 SPG (1.7%) 1.4 BPG (3.4%)
Marion: 14.9 PPG (51.1%) 9.5 RPG (14.7%) 2.0 APG (9.1%) 1.1 SPG (1.5%) 1.5 BPG (3.0%)
Prince: N/A
Batum: 14.7 PPG (64.6%) 5.5 RPG (9.5%) 1.8 APG (8.0%) 0.9 SPG (1.4%) 1.0 BPG (2.2%)
Middleton: 12.5 PPG (53.2%) 3.8 RPG (6.1%) 2.1 APG (9.5%) 1.1 SPG (1.7%) 0.3 BPG (0.7%)
George: 14.7 PPG (55.5%) 6.8 RPG (10.6%) 2.9 APG (13.6%) 2.0 SPG (2.9%) 0.7 BPG (1.5%)
Durant: 27.5 PPG (60.7%) 6.9 RPG (11.0%) 2.6 APG (13.5%) 1.2 SPG (1.8%) 0.9 BPG (1.9%)
Ingram: 19.3 PPG (55.5%) 5.5 RPG (7.8%) 3.2 APG (12.8%) 0.6 SPG (0.7%) 0.6 BPG (1.4%)
22 Years Old - Per 36 Min.:
Code:
Name PPG (TS%) RPG (RBD%) APG (AST%) SPG (STL%) BPG (BLK%)
Pippen: 13.6 PPG (48.9%) 6.5 RPG 3.7 APG 2.0 SPG 1.1 BPG
Leonard: 15.8 PPG (60.2%) 7.7 RPG (12.1%) 2.5 APG (10.4%) 2.1 SPG (3.0%) 0.9 BPG (1.9%)
Giannis: 23.2 PPG (59.9%) 8.9 RPG (14.3%) 5.5 APG (26.6%) 1.7 SPG (2.3%) 1.9 BPG (4.7%)
Marion: 17.3 PPT (43.2%) 10.7 RPG 2.0 APG 1.7 SPG 1.4 BPG
Prince: 11.3 PPG (54.6%) 3.7 RPG 2.0 APG 0.8 SPG 1.2 BPG
Batum: 14.1 PPG (56.3%) 5.2 RPG (8.8%) 1.8 APG (8.1%) 1.0 SPG (1.5%) 0.7 BPG (1.6%)
Middleton: 14.5 PPG (54.1%) 4.5 RPG (7.2%) 2.5 APG (11.7%) 1.2 SPG (1.8%) 0.3 BPG (0.7%)
George: 16.7 PPG (53.1%) 7.3 RPG (11.3%) 4.0 APG (19.6%) 1.7 SPG (2.6%) 0.6 BPG (1.3%)
Durant: 25.6 PPG (58.9%) 6.3 RPG (10.3%) 2.5 APG (13.2%) 1.0 STL (1.5%) 0.9 BLK (1.8%)
Ingram: N/A
Not too bad for a kid that's been "below average or extremely poor" for the entirety of his career.
He definitely seems to like the tough challenges on defense. He's no matador. But the Lakers defensive schemes not a nice sight to look at.
Why are not all of their advanced stats shown like WS, VORP. Why is FT% and FT rate not included? Or 3pt %, OBPM, DBPM...
If we are going to do this song and dance let's not cherry pick stats to paint a certain narrative, let's list everything so we can have a fair comparison.
Just looking at the stats you've given (which aren't even that representative because Ingram at age 21 was in his third career season, whereas most of these other guys had been in the NBA less time)21 Years Old - Per 36 Min.:
Code:
Name PPG (TS%) RPG (RBD%) APG (AST%) SPG (STL%) BPG (BLK%)
Pippen: N/A
Leonard: 13.7 PPG (59.2%) 6.9 RPG (11.1%) 1.8 APG (7.7%) 1.9 SPG (2.9%) 0.6 BPG (1.1%)
Giannis: 17.2 PPG (56.6%) 7.8 RPG (12.4%) 4.4 APG (20.0%) 1.2 SPG (1.7%) 1.4 BPG (3.4%)
Marion: 14.9 PPG (51.1%) 9.5 RPG (14.7%) 2.0 APG (9.1%) 1.1 SPG (1.5%) 1.5 BPG (3.0%)
Prince: N/A
Batum: 14.7 PPG (64.6%) 5.5 RPG (9.5%) 1.8 APG (8.0%) 0.9 SPG (1.4%) 1.0 BPG (2.2%)
Middleton: 12.5 PPG (53.2%) 3.8 RPG (6.1%) 2.1 APG (9.5%) 1.1 SPG (1.7%) 0.3 BPG (0.7%)
George: 14.7 PPG (55.5%) 6.8 RPG (10.6%) 2.9 APG (13.6%) 2.0 SPG (2.9%) 0.7 BPG (1.5%)
Durant: 27.5 PPG (60.7%) 6.9 RPG (11.0%) 2.6 APG (13.5%) 1.2 SPG (1.8%) 0.9 BPG (1.9%)
Ingram: 19.3 PPG (55.5%) 5.5 RPG (7.8%) 3.2 APG (12.8%) 0.6 SPG (0.7%) 0.6 BPG (1.4%)
Not too bad for a kid that's been "below average or extremely poor" for the entirety of his career.
Ingram has the worst steals percentage of everyone by a fairly large margin, the third worst block percentage, the second worst rebounding percentage, the third worst TS%, out of 10 candidates.
So what you're saying is that he's solidly in the bottom half of all those players, and just takes more shots than they did? I'd agree.
Also worth pointing out, if you compare Ingram to (say) Middleton, Paul George, Kawhi, Marion, and Giannis all in their third seasons (as Ingram just was) you find they rank as follows in these stats:
PER: Marion (19.8), Kawhi (19.4), Giannis (18.8), George (16.8), Middleton (15.6), Ingram (13.4)
TS%: Kawhi (60.2%), Giannis (56.6%), Middleton (56.3%), Ingram (55.5%), George (53.1%), Marion (51.8%)
WS/48: Kawhi (.193), Marion (.151), George (.145), Middleton (.135), Giannis (.121), Ingram (.055)
VORP: George (+5.0), Kawhi (+3.8), Marion (+3.6), Giannis (+3.2), Middleton (+2.0), Ingram (-0.3)
BPM: Kawhi (+5.8), George (+4.7), Marion (+2.6), Giannis (+2.4), Middleton (+1.4), Ingram (-2.8)
Net Rating: Kawhi (+18), Middleton (+7), Marion (+7), George (+7), Giannis (+3), Ingram (-8)
Isn't it weird how when you start looking at the advanced stats, beyond the box score, Ingram starts to look worse and worse in comparison to these other guys. Dead last in 5 of those 6 categories, in some cases (Net Rating, BPM, WS/48, VORP) by a WIDE margin.
Again, I'm making it clear: I am not saying Ingram is doomed to suck. He could definitely improve. As long as he wears Pelicans jersey, I am hoping for him to succeed: I want the guys on my team to be good, and fun to root for. But can we please stop pretending that he's been really great so far in his career?
Just a question, how many full Lakers games have you watched from last year? Especially when LeBron was playing?
Beat me to it.
Not sure of the exact number. Probably around 35, why?
You've sat and watched 35 full Laker games from last year huh?
Ok.
The thing about the "cherry picking stats" critique is you generally hear it if the individual who brings it up opposes the conclusion arrived by the data.
The data I provided gives us some insight into the player that he is relative to other marque players at the same age. Ingram is in good company.
There's just no away around it, whether you like the kid or not. I was kinda hoping we could all be objective here.
If you don't believe Ingram is as good as those who are optimistic about his projected future I can respect that. With that being said, "He's a poor defender" "He's below average or extremely poor" are views that don't line up with reality.
I watch a lot of basketball.
Nothing you posted in your limited list of actual stats says Ingram is anything other than in the bottom half of the list of players and that's after you cherry picked stats to try and paint him in the best light possible. As has already been posted when you start including stats you seemed to either ignore (willfully or by ignorance) it just further shows Ingram does not stack up with the upper echelon of SFs.
It reminds me of that Thaddeus Young graphic from awhile back. Just a joke that people can see right through.
On an unrelated note, that's still one of the funniest graphics ever made.It reminds me of that Thaddeus Young graphic from awhile back. Just a joke that people can see right through.
Okay.. well I'm going to leave you guys to it. =) You're going to believe whatever it is you believe until it becomes apparent that you shouldn't. =) Enjoy your weekends.
Yes it's apparent people have a narrative they are trying to push first then cherry picking stats to try and fit that.
Here's to Ingram hopefully reaching the level some of you are already putting him at.
smh..
I'm glad we agreed that this entire thing is smh worthy.
Look.. I don't know how you guys get down on this board but I think you need to grow up. I presented my perspective on Ingram as a prospect, accompanied by data to support it. If you don't agree with it that's fine. You don't need to make me an adversary. Or pester me with replies. I'm not here for drama. You've made your position clear, I've moved on. You can do the same. As I said before enjoy your weekend.
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