AD trade scenarios...

[Taker597]

For some reason I thought Lavine was a bad 3pt shooter but he's a career 37% guy on 5 attempts a game. He's better than I thought he was overall.

Actually when you compare Lavine at 23 to Bradley Beal at 23 their numbers are pretty close, Beal slightly better shooting % while Lavine gives more rebounding and assists.

I feel like Lakers would still need to pony up at least another 1st especially if they are keeping Ingram but this moves the trade closer to feeling acceptable territory.

I hope they get super in win now mode with current state of the Warriors and oversell future picks

[PELICANSFAN]

Is Beal known for his defense? I assume neither are awesome on the defense but I don't know.

Beal is actually a pretty good defender.

[Pelicanidae]

Beal is actually a pretty good defender.

Yeah he's no all-defense guy, but he's capable on the defensive end. Lavine, by comparison, is just flat bad.

[Pels4Life]

for 2019 Beal had a 114.4 defensive rating. For example Lavine had a 114.8, Jrue had a 112.5

Defensive rating simply shows how many points a player allows per 100 possessions. ... Defensive rating also eliminates factors like pace of play and minutes played per game. It is also important to note that as opposed to most other basketball stats, lower numbers are better when it comes to defensive rating.

[msusousaphone]

for 2019 he had a 114.4 defensive rating. For example Lavine had a 114.8, Jrue had a 112.5

Defensive rating simply shows how many points a player allows per 100 possessions. ... Defensive rating also eliminates factors like pace of play and minutes played per game. It is also important to note that as opposed to most other basketball stats, lower numbers are better when it comes to defensive rating.

I'm confused here. The first number is Beal? So Jrue, Beal, and Lavine were rated closely by that metric?

And Jrue mostly takes on the hardest assignment. Guess the metric doesn't account for that. I dunno.

[Pels4Life]

I'm confused here. The first number is Beal? So Jrue, Beal, and Lavine were rated closely by that metric?

And Jrue mostly takes on the hardest assignment. Guess the metric doesn't account for that. I dunno.

yes, fixed it for you. Yea i think you are right that metric is not the best measure of defensive skills. Maybe also take into account steals, blocks, and something else if you can't watch every play to know.

[msusousaphone]

Ok cool.

And my tone wasn't condescending or mocking. I really don't watch Eastern conference much so don't know Beal and Lavine well.

[P_B_&_G]

I'm confused here. The first number is Beal? So Jrue, Beal, and Lavine were rated closely by that metric?

And Jrue mostly takes on the hardest assignment. Guess the metric doesn't account for that. I dunno.

2 points on this scale is rather significant.

[Pels4Life]

Ok cool.

And my tone wasn't condescending or mocking. I really don't watch Eastern conference much so don't know Beal and Lavine well.

Im with you i have to lean on the stats as I mostly focus on the pels and kinda catch the rest on sportscenter

[Pels4Life]

here is the link btw used for defensive rating: https://www.foxsports.com/nba/stats?...tOrder=1&opp=0

[msusousaphone]

2 points on this scale is rather significant.

But significantly better. Last page was Lavine is bad at D. This page is the opposite. And again, not being condescending, really don't know this guy well.

[Pels4Life]

But significantly better. Last page was Lavine is bad at D. This page is the opposite. And again, not being condescending, really don't know this guy well.

I think what happens is the perception is a combination of other things not shown in the stats. Not even sure myself but there are articles about his defense so there is that.

[Pelicanidae]

I'm confused here. The first number is Beal? So Jrue, Beal, and Lavine were rated closely by that metric?

And Jrue mostly takes on the hardest assignment. Guess the metric doesn't account for that. I dunno.

Defensive rating can be a good metric, and it's definitely worth looking at. If someone has a DRTG of 150, then you can safely assume they're a bad defender. If their DRTG is 90, you can safely assume they're a very good defender. But the middle space can be a little unclear, because as you say, it doesn't account for matchups and it also doesn't account for the quality of the defensive team around you. If you're on a very good defensive team, you can have a pretty good defensive rating even if you're a fairly poor defender. Similarly, as Jrue suffers, you can be a very good individual defender whose defensive rating suffers because you're constantly in lineups with god-awful defenders around you.

So other good places to look include on-off numbers.

Jrue was a +14.5 when he was on the court. That's because our team's offensive rating was +8.6 when he was on the court, and opposing team's was -5.9 from their average.

Beal was a +2 on the court, because although his team was +6.5 with him on the court, the opposing team was also +4.5 on their average. So you can see, he doesn't contribute to team defense the way Jrue does.

For comparison, Lavine was a +2.7, because his team was +3.0 with him on the court, and the opposing team was only +0.3.

Again, not a perfect metric either. A good example of a problem here would be that Bull's opponents only got +0.3 better with Lavine on the floor, but part of that is because their averages were already jacked up playing against Chicago, who are a terrible defensive team anyway. Not much room to get better.

There aren't 'great' defensive metrics, sadly, since offense is what so many people focus on. But it's pretty clear that Beal is a plus on the court, but not a great defender. Lavine is also a plus on the court, but isn't a great defender. Jrue Holiday is Jesus.

[P_B_&_G]

After looking at the defensive ratnigs from last season I'm going to go ahead and say that stat is pretty worthless.

Look at this list and convince me it isn't.

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/stats?...0&opp=0&page=3

Example of why:

Jrue is 112.5

Brandon Ingram 112.3

Kyle Kuzma 112.2

Julius Randle 112.1

Dame 112

Stephen Curry 110.1

Jaylen Brown 108.6

Harden at 108 LOL

Kyrie at 107.9

Tatum 107.4

Smart 107.1

Rubio 106.5

Kawhi 105.2

AD 105

Westbrook 103


The lower the number the better. This is not a complete list. Tell me again how Westbrook is a better defender than all of those guys above him?

Seems this is only useful when considered in context with team defense.

[MistaWhoDat]

Someone talk! Ainge is not backing down, has no regrets. This is great news for us! Isn’t it?

Backing down from what ??? It’s obvious he isn’t offering anything great or the deal would be done . What’s he not backing away from trading us Brown ??


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[donato]

I haven't watched much Bulls. But Lavine did just turn 24 and his PER took a pretty big jump this year:







He also shot 46.7/37.3/83.2 which is pretty good, while averaging 23.7ppg. He took a jump and has potential.

[Pelicanidae]

Like, I said, defensive rating isn't perfect. It does generally give a decent indication, but it's pretty murky in the middle.

A good place to look is on-off numbers.

Equally, if you visit nba.com and look at individual players, you can see who they were defending primarily throughout the year and what those opponents shot when guarded by them.

Example:

Jrue Holiday guarded Kevin Durant for 42 possessions last year, giving up a total of 12 points. That's very good. He also guarded Jimmy Butler for 32 possessions, giving up 8.5 points. Again, very good.

By contrast, Lavine guarded Damyean Dotson for 60 possessions last season, his most guarded opponent, and gave up 19 points. He also guarded Avery Bradley for 48 possessions and gave up 21 points.

Of course, this is still not perfect, because the metrics can sometimes miss a couple of plays, or there can be ambiguity over who is the primary defender sometimes, and there's help to consider. Still, gives a good general indication.

[13 - 3]

From @Mike_Pelicans: I built an active plyr comparison generator to minimize variance across various per-min metrics. Meant to find players whose cumulative performances (by same age) most resembles Player X's cumulative performance to date. Very new to this, suggestions welcome! pic.twitter.com/uuDz3BN0sV

— Bourbon Street Shots (@BourbonStShots) June 14, 2019

[13 - 3]

Lakers fans don't like our account? Damn pic.twitter.com/zwSUAYJub9

— New Orleans Pelicans (@PelicansNBA) June 14, 2019

[13 - 3]

"This is the most uncertain offseason since 2007." Celtics co-owner Wyc Grousbeck grapples with what happened, and is happening, to his team. https://t.co/0q4QxsSZ4G

— Mark Murphy (@Murf56) June 13, 2019

[msusousaphone]

Jrue Holiday is Jesus.

Lol. This was my confusion. The numbers were saying that either there were three Jesuses (the plural of which should be Jesii) or that Jrue was not Jesus. And neither of these sat well with me.

And haha, PB&G. Good catch.

[Taker597]

The only thing about LaVine is that I do not like the players that Minnesota develops. They just seem so soft with no killer instinct or defensive intensity or accountability when Weedplate Wiggins, Tinman Towns, Zack where together. They where just so passive and not hungry.

[13 - 3]

Lakers giving up? Interested in Butler now?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...nuine-interest

[Pelicanidae]

Lol. This was my confusion. The numbers were saying that either there were three Jesuses (the plural of which should be Jesii) or that Jrue was not Jesus. And neither of these sat well with me.

And haha, PB&G. Good catch.

Yeah. Jrue really is absolutely fantastic. His on-off numbers are astronomical. +14.5 is insane.

If you compare his +14.5 with some other superstar calibre players, this is what you get:

Giannis Antetokoumnpo: +9.6
James Harden: +9.7
Lebron James: +8.1
Kevin Durant: +16.8
Damian Lillard: 14.6
Kawhi Leonard: +5.5

So you can see, Jrue's actual on-court impact for this team is right up there with the best of the best.

[13 - 3]

So other than Lakers fans crying. Nothing happened today! While we are at it let us see these forum Lakers fans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9whXF3i1CIo