Should we tank and become sellers at the deadline?

[MichaelMcNamara]

Oh, cool Sorry I'm pretty casual around here these days, didn't know you wrote on this idea.

Here's the article and some specific ideas. You are on the right track

http://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/20...icans-to-sell/

[Impose]

Here's the article and some specific ideas. You are on the right track

http://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/20...icans-to-sell/

Some interesting ideas in there. I'd be keen to take a flyer on Fultz for sure. I'd try and cut Phoenix out (even though Melton is arguably better right now). I left Monk out of my proposal because I feel like Frank could have a similar career/role. What do you think of Bridges? I like his potential to be a small ball 4 and athletic, spot up shooting 3.

I posted before the start of the year about how I was on the fence about the teams potential and was ok with ~11th pick in the draft as a result for the year. Seems more and more likely that'll be the case. I'd hate for Dell to make another 'Mirotic-like' deal, feels like flogging a dead horse at this stage.

[NMThreeMVP]

I’d be happy to take on MKG/MW/Monk for Mirotic/Randle/Moore

[Impose]

I’d be happy to take on MKG/MW/Monk for Mirotic/Randle/Moore

I think we could get better value back for that trio of players.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Some interesting ideas in there. I'd be keen to take a flyer on Fultz for sure. I'd try and cut Phoenix out (even though Melton is arguably better right now). I left Monk out of my proposal because I feel like Frank could have a similar career/role. What do you think of Bridges? I like his potential to be a small ball 4 and athletic, spot up shooting 3.

I posted before the start of the year about how I was on the fence about the teams potential and was ok with ~11th pick in the draft as a result for the year. Seems more and more likely that'll be the case. I'd hate for Dell to make another 'Mirotic-like' deal, feels like flogging a dead horse at this stage.

I'd have no desire to take on Fultz. One, we have a similar player in Frank. A combo guard that we are trying to develop. Yes, Fultz has a higher ceiling (and lower floor), but we are already trying to develop that kind of player. Wouldn't have minutes and reps to develop both. Also, I just don't think the infrastructure is here to completely start from scratch with that kid, which I think is necessary. Bridges - Charlotte won't give up.

I think you are looking at fairly minor assets in return for our players and/or taking on an extra year of bad contracts. But every one of those minor assets help. Phoenix's 2nd round pick isn't sexy, but the more of those you have the more chances you have to get a guy who helps. I was watching Denver-Utah the other night and I just kept seeing guys taken in the 2nd round or undrafted: M. Morris, Crowder, Ingles, R. O'Neale, Jokic, T. Craig, Will Barton. He wasn't playing but IT3 is on Denver. Thats 8 guys in one game.

Just keep acquiring assets. Start now.

[NMThreeMVP]

I'd have no desire to take on Fultz. One, we have a similar player in Frank. A combo guard that we are trying to develop. Yes, Fultz has a higher ceiling (and lower floor), but we are already trying to develop that kind of player. Wouldn't have minutes and reps to develop both. Also, I just don't think the infrastructure is here to completely start from scratch with that kid, which I think is necessary. Bridges - Charlotte won't give up.

I think you are looking at fairly minor assets in return for our players and/or taking on an extra year of bad contracts. But every one of those minor assets help. Phoenix's 2nd round pick isn't sexy, but the more of those you have the more chances you have to get a guy who helps. I was watching Denver-Utah the other night and I just kept seeing guys taken in the 2nd round or undrafted: M. Morris, Crowder, Ingles, R. O'Neale, Jokic, T. Craig, Will Barton. He wasn't playing but IT3 is on Denver. Thats 8 guys in one game.

Just keep acquiring assets. Start now.

Is Denver the exception to the rule though? That's a high percentage of undrafted or 2nd rounders for a playoff team.

I still think our best path forward is something right down the middle between a Hinkie and Dell approach; to acquire and soon thereafter flip a good number of those assets we get for available young vets. Guys who might be available because of a change of organizational direction, role, or fit... like DSJ, Fultz, Monk, Winslow, Aaron Gordon, Prince, Dunn, Josh Jackson etc...

Not sure if those are specifically the right players... but that would be the idea. Because of the AD trade we're looking at the potential of a lot of picks in our future and I don't think we should be trying to gamble on drafting/developing all those young players.

[NMThreeMVP]

I call my strategy.... "SELL... so that we have capital to BUY with!"

[NMThreeMVP]

Jrue's option year is 2021.

Which means we're guaranteed the next two seasons of what should be one of the best two way guards in the league ...in his prime. This is very different than when the cupboard was bare following the West and CP3 exits.

So how do you rebuild around that guy, without sacrificing the future beyond 2021? That's the goal, IMO.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I call my strategy.... "SELL... so that we have capital to BUY with!"

Exactly. You sell Randle, Moore, etc do get small assets now.

You get real players and draft capital for multiple years in an AD trade. You build up a treasure chest while still having good players (Jrue and Tatum) and then you strike when the opportunity arises.

[NMThreeMVP]

Exactly. You sell Randle, Moore, etc do get small assets now.

You get real players and draft capital for multiple years in an AD trade. You build up a treasure chest while still having good players (Jrue and Tatum) and then you strike when the opportunity arises.

I'd hold on to Moore to flip in the Boston deal. But Niko and Randle can both go next week!

I want Horford, Smart, Tatum, 76ers pick, Griz Pick, and 2020 Boston Pick for AD/Solo/Hill. Is that too much to ask for?

A Smart and Holiday backcourt could be incredibly fun on the defensive end; allow Tatum to develop into the alpha on offense; get a reliable 15/10 with good defense from Horford; develop some young guys; if you didn't add salary when you dumped Niko/Randle, you could use your flexibility to accept some salary dumps for other assets...

That's a team that can be in the mix next year in a lot of fun and interesting ways, both on and off the court.
I signed a petition to replay Saints/Rams... is there a petition I can sign to make this happen too?

[MichaelMcNamara]

76ers pick?

[Eman5805]

Why do I have the sinking sensation that this team's future will have Dell Demps in it no matter what? May let Gentry go...but it'll still be Demps attached.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Why do I have the sinking sensation that this team's future will have Dell Demps in it no matter what? May let Gentry go...but it'll still be Demps attached.

And you will blame him, because he is the face. But as I have been telling you guys for YEARS -- its an ownership issue. If ownership came to Demps today and told him that they know the writing is on the wall and they need to start a rebuild, he would happily become a seller and probably do a good job at it.

The more and more I read message boards and see people on twitter, etc - the more I realize that most of you guys don't really get how this all works. Where the directives come from, who makes the decisions, etc. Many of you hope that Demps is fired and seem to think that some other person will come in and make the decision to do things "the right way" - as if its the GMs decision. But all they are is a patsy acting on the orders of ownership.

It would be like if McDonald's decided to charge $8 for the Big Mac and then you guys went to your local stores and yelled at the managers about it. I don't know why I am trying to explain this to the masses again. I have literally been saying this for years and nothing has changed, but its hard not to try and educate again when so many people just don't seem to understand the basics.

[NMThreeMVP]

76ers pick?

Kings pick... via 76ers

[Bee-Fense]

And you will blame him, because he is the face. But as I have been telling you guys for YEARS -- its an ownership issue. If ownership came to Demps today and told him that they know the writing is on the wall and they need to start a rebuild, he would happily become a seller and probably do a good job at it.

The more and more I read message boards and see people on twitter, etc - the more I realize that most of you guys don't really get how this all works. Where the directives come from, who makes the decisions, etc. Many of you hope that Demps is fired and seem to think that some other person will come in and make the decision to do things "the right way" - as if its the GMs decision. But all they are is a patsy acting on the orders of ownership.

It would be like if McDonald's decided to charge $8 for the Big Mac and then you guys went to your local stores and yelled at the managers about it. I don't know why I am trying to explain this to the masses again. I have literally been saying this for years and nothing has changed, but its hard not to try and educate again when so many people just don't seem to understand the basics.

Is that necessarily true given that Demps and NBA ownership were on completely different pages for the post-CP3 rebuild? I tend to agree with you but playing devil's advocate given how public that negotiation was.

[Eman5805]

So did Gayle have more influence over the last few years than we were led to believe? I mean, Tom just died. So I take it he wasn't really giving out commands.

[JJackisangry]

Is that necessarily true given that Demps and NBA ownership were on completely different pages for the post-CP3 rebuild? I tend to agree with you but playing devil's advocate given how public that negotiation was.

Yeah I don’t his whole argument either. Dell has made pretty questionable decisions (some to save his job and others that were awful regardless of how you look at it). I do think Dell would bend to the knee if the ownership forced him to, but I’d wager they’ve been pretty passive and aren’t too concerned about the franchise apart from AD. Dell needs to go simply for approving Gentry.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Yeah I don’t his whole argument either. Dell has made pretty questionable decisions (some to save his job and others that were awful regardless of how you look at it). I do think Dell would bend to the knee if the ownership forced him to, but I’d wager they’ve been pretty passive and aren’t too concerned about the franchise apart from AD. Dell needs to go simply for approving Gentry.

Cool. You guys all continue to believe whatever. I'll be back when the next guy rushes the next phase too and it fails and we can talk again about what the issue is/was

[da ThRONe]

Demps is to blame. Does that excuse the Benson's for pushing an agenda no it doesn't. . However when you are a person as high in the chain of command as Demps you have to stand by your beliefs. If you think rushing a rebuild is wrong and management doesn't understand that concept you have to be willing to walk away. It's his reputation on the line. Now this mess is in his resume not Gayle Benson.

[JJackisangry]

Cool. You guys all continue to believe whatever. I'll be back when the next guy rushes the next phase too and it fails and we can talk again about what the issue is/was

It’s okay to disagree Mac. I’ve followed many sports and I know that ultimately the ownership controls which direction the club heads, but I doubt the Bensons are as involved as you say. I think we agree the rebuild is the best course of action. I just don’t think Dell is concerned about the best course of action as much as he is about keeping his job.

If we tank, that is Dell admitting Gentry was a failure and the team he built wasn’t good enough. Ownership will probably just go with the flow as I don’t think they are as involved as they should be. They need to make sure he doesn’t make a desperate trade that gets us nowhere.

Long story short, the franchise is incompetent and I fully expect us to blow it.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Demps is to blame. Does that excuse the Benson's for pushing an agenda no it doesn't. . However when you are a person as high in the chain of command as Demps you have to stand by your beliefs. If you think rushing a rebuild is wrong and management doesn't understand that concept you have to be willing to walk away. It's his reputation on the line. Now this mess is in his resume not Gayle Benson.

I think you guys think that I am saying that Dell is blameless. I am not.

They gave him a direction and he went in that direction and made bad moves to try and achieve what management wanted. He could have done much better.

But the bigger issue is the objectives he was given and the direction he was told to go.

So, my greater point is that I don't care if Dell is fired or not. I don't care who they hire to be the next guy. Because it won't matter until the focus of those above the GM is changed. You guys all think that a GM is powerful because he is the person who see. But the truth is that a GM can not make a trade or a hire without an owners approval. The owner sets the goals and objectives and the GM does what they do to try to meet those objectives. They don't take moral or principles stands and do what they want in spite of the owners wishes.

So, the only way this organization gets on the right track and has sustained success is if those goals and objectives set from the top are changed. Scream to fire whoever you want and hire whoever you want, but I promise you it won't matter until that happens first.

[tdcreator]

It’s okay to disagree Mac. I’ve followed many sports and I know that ultimately the ownership controls which direction the club heads, but I doubt the Bensons are as involved as you say. I think we agree the rebuild is the best course of action. I just don’t think Dell is concerned about the best course of action as much as he is about keeping his job.

If we tank, that is Dell admitting Gentry was a failure and the team he built wasn’t good enough. Ownership will probably just go with the flow as I don’t think they are as involved as they should be. They need to make sure he doesn’t make a desperate trade that gets us nowhere.

Long story short, the franchise is incompetent and I fully expect us to blow it.

I think Dells only directive was to win, other than that he has total total control. Loomis is kinda in the same boat except he has given Sean Payton complete say on players he wants (which is kinda good because he’s winning and losing with his players). How Dell has done it hasn’t been too bad just injuries have derailed most decisions. The other thing he doesn’t do is sell high on players especially guys potentially leaving via FA (Anderson being most recent). He can’t give up on a season which is good and bad. The year we lost Tyreke and Ryno we were bad and not going anywhere. Why we didn’t sell them both was a mystery to me. I mean just because you trade a player doesn’t mean you can’t resign them the next year (if they were FA). I’m ready to sell and get all the young talent, drop salary, and picks you can get.

Sell Niko, Moore, and Randle because the money you save (depending what you get back) you can resign Niko or Randle with that extra cap money, unless you can get another superstar. All of these guys should net you a young asset or picks so let’s build this thing right and regardless of Davis staying or going we’ll have at least some depth.

Hill is a guy if I can attach a player and a second for expiring then get it done. Now if all the players are gone and we have only Jrue, Davis, Okafor, and Frank. We should have plenty of money to make a run at some decent players and if they don’t come, save the money to trade for bad contracts and draft picks.

[tdcreator]

I think you guys think that I am saying that Dell is blameless. I am not.

They gave him a direction and he went in that direction and made bad moves to try and achieve what management wanted. He could have done much better.

But the bigger issue is the objectives he was given and the direction he was told to go.

So, my greater point is that I don't care if Dell is fired or not. I don't care who they hire to be the next guy. Because it won't matter until the focus of those above the GM is changed. You guys all think that a GM is powerful because he is the person who see. But the truth is that a GM can not make a trade or a hire without an owners approval. The owner sets the goals and objectives and the GM does what they do to try to meet those objectives. They don't take moral or principles stands and do what they want in spite of the owners wishes.

So, the only way this organization gets on the right track and has sustained success is if those goals and objectives set from the top are changed. Scream to fire whoever you want and hire whoever you want, but I promise you it won't matter until that happens first.

I think if your a GM, the saints/pelicans job would be perfect. Ownership appear to let GMs do their jobs without interference and shouldn’t ownership gives you a directive to win, isn’t that what your trying to do anyway. I mean yes Dell can’t trade Davis or maybe Jrue without approval but anyone else I doubt management would care, same goes for Brees and maybe a few other player (like Jordan, Kamara, MThomas).

I think the narrative that it starts at the top is all good but I believe our ownership is letting their guys do their jobs. Saying that Loomis isn’t watching over the pelicans is stupid because that is Dells job. Loomis should be there to really oversee and approve trades on behalf of Gail other than that Dell is the man. So to me if you don’t like the direction or anything that’s happened then you move on from Dell.

[NMThreeMVP]

I hate the blame game. It's hard to win in the NBA.
Dell made mistakes - Asik being the biggest
AD/Jrue missed a lot of games
Gordon was made of glass
Ryno hurt his neck/back
Solo tore his hamstring
Boogie ruptured his achilles
etc
etc
etc

There was nothing wrong with the Pels approach/strategy. It just didn't work out.

[da ThRONe]

I think you guys think that I am saying that Dell is blameless. I am not.

They gave him a direction and he went in that direction and made bad moves to try and achieve what management wanted. He could have done much better.

But the bigger issue is the objectives he was given and the direction he was told to go.

So, my greater point is that I don't care if Dell is fired or not. I don't care who they hire to be the next guy. Because it won't matter until the focus of those above the GM is changed. You guys all think that a GM is powerful because he is the person who see. But the truth is that a GM can not make a trade or a hire without an owners approval. The owner sets the goals and objectives and the GM does what they do to try to meet those objectives. They don't take moral or principles stands and do what they want in spite of the owners wishes.

So, the only way this organization gets on the right track and has sustained success is if those goals and objectives set from the top are changed. Scream to fire whoever you want and hire whoever you want, but I promise you it won't matter until that happens first.

Oh I agree. Ownership cut the checks so they get the last word. We've seen what Dolan has done to the Knicks or any other over barring owner. But we've seen GM'S/TP and ownership part ways due to "disagreements". Demps took his marching orders and so he's responsible for the results. Not sure how much say Gayle had in said directions. A lot of people were saying Tom knowing his days were limited pushed to win sooner. Hopefully she doesn't feel the same way.