Noel or Holiday

[UNO Gracias]

Weren't we at one point interested in Teague, or was that my imagination from a few years back? I am not saying we lost/won the trade, but I don't think we are in some dark hole if we don't land Jrue. I think we had options for the point, even if it was rolling with GV for another year.

Looking on that "bad draft", it really wasn't that "bad" as people paint it to be. Even if you don't take Noel, there were dozens of players who would have contributed right away had we been forced into drafting them.

[N.O.Bronco]

Weren't we at one point interested in Teague, or was that my imagination from a few years back? I am not saying we lost/won the trade, but I don't think we are in some dark hole if we don't land Jrue. I think we had options for the point, even if it was rolling with GV for another year.

Looking on that "bad draft", it really wasn't that "bad" as people paint it to be. Even if you don't take Noel, there were dozens of players who would have contributed right away had we been forced into drafting them.

There were rumors we were gonna target him the offseason we got jrue.

It's one of the reasons I haven't liked the trade much. This is a different question then the op though so it's why my answer is different.

To me I would of rather kept the two lottery picks and made a slightly higher offer then what we pay Jrue and try and pry him away from Atlanta that year.

I can see why Demps took the sure thing in getting jrue over the uncertainty of possibly not being able to sign Teague but I just have always been uneasy about that trade. When I factor in how flush the pg position is though, that is when I start to turn sour on the trade.

Like was just said, PG is about the easiest position to come by in the league right now. Big men are the hardest. We gave up a guy that is currently on a trajectory to become an elite defensive big man in this league(grantland is already arguing he is) on a rookie contract and an extra lottery pick for a guy we hope can be a cornerstone at a talent heavy position but is currently a above average pg with consistency issues on both sides of the ball that can't stay healthy.

Unless you have some star FA lined up I seem to think teams that rush their rebuild tend to get taken advantage of. So far with Jrue and Evans I think that has been the case for us.

When I look at the oppurtunity costs of those two trades I shake my head.

[Bongzilla]

Point guard is the deepest position in the league. Due to this, we need someone who can defend guys like Paul, Irving, Westbrook, etc.
Jrue is one of the best perimeter defenders due to his size & speed. If we would've kept Noel, he wouldn't have gotten any minutes due to him playing the PF behind Davis/Anderson. We needed a starting point guard and we got him.

However, Noel & Holiday have both played about the same amount of games since the trade. lol. smh.

Edit: I failed to mention that if Jrue had played, Westbrook would've scored significantly less against us the last 2 games and IMO we would be 4-0 against Thunder.

Your edit is conjecture at best. Westbrook did not score 40+ on us because Jrue was not defending him. Westbrook scored 40+ on us because he simply cannot be stopped right now. By anyone in the entire world apparently... And Jrue is from the planet earth I believe.

[Bongzilla]

Everyone mentions how quick guards give Reke trouble and that is why we need Jrue. But, every "quick" PG is also very small.


Yes Reke cannot stay in front of Lawson, but Lawson has NO CHANCE against Reke in the post. To say "we cannot" win with Reke as our PG is folly. We can, and we HAVE BEEN. I agree that it requires a different play style, but that does not matter to me - only winning does.

[N.O.Bronco]

Your edit is conjecture at best. Westbrook did not score 40+ on us because Jrue was not defending him. Westbrook scored 40+ on us because he simply cannot be stopped right now. By anyone in the entire world apparently... And Jrue is from the planet earth I believe.

CP3 did manage to hold him to 19 points 5 assists and 5 turnovers.

But that assumes jrue is at cp3's level defensively and I just don't buy that.

I do think jrue would of been able to guard Westbrook more effectively and by a good margin(doesn't mean he still wouldn't of dropped 35) then gordon and evans but I think our fan base is overselling Jrues defense quite a bit. He has been inconsistent and even when healthy our perimeter D was not very good.

He has actually converted me in terms of his facilitation skills but I still am not seeing this supposed lockdown defender talk.

[N.O.Bronco]

Your edit is conjecture at best. Westbrook did not score 40+ on us because Jrue was not defending him. Westbrook scored 40+ on us because he simply cannot be stopped right now. By anyone in the entire world apparently... And Jrue is from the planet earth I believe.

CP3 did manage to hold him to 19 points 5 assists and 5 turnovers.

But that assumes jrue is at cp3's level defensively and I just don't buy that.

I do think jrue would of been able to guard Westbrook more effectively and by a good margin(doesn't mean he still wouldn't of dropped 35) then gordon and evans but I think our fan base is overselling Jrues defense quite a bit. He has been inconsistent and even when healthy our perimeter D was not very good.

He has actually converted me in terms of his facilitation skills but I still am not seeing this supposed lockdown defender talk.

[msw2024]

To be honest, this thread is irrelevant bc the past is the past and won't change. Why are people dwelling on something that will NEVER change. Why don't we focus on the future? Let's just swallow the sour grapes and move on.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Caffeinedisastr]

Very much appreciated, man. Thanks.


Problem with your argument is the presumption that, had we not traded for Jrue, we would have done absolutely nothing to address our need at point guard. I don't see it like that. Like I said, point guard is the deepest position in the league. Someone is always available. This year alone, Goran Dragic, Michael Carter Williams, Brandon Knight, Reggie Jackson, Isaiah Thomas, and Rajon Rondo were all dealt. If we didn't draft one in 2013 because of Noel, we still would've had our 2014 pick to work with. Point being, with such a deep talent pool, you can't just assume we wouldn't have been able to acquire someone else capable of handling the position.

Again, I agree with those arguing the point that, if healthy, Jrue is currently the better player who fills the bigger need position (if not for the "if healthy" caveat, this isn't even a discussion), but that's only if we're looking at this in a vacuum. I choose to factor in that we're discussing the league's deepest position and there are about 15 other players out there who are just as good, if not better than Jrue Holiday. There's only 30 teams in the league. That makes him a slightly above average player at his position at best. I also choose to factor in that Noel has a higher ceiling. But, more importantly, I choose to factor in the two consecutive 1st round picks in the top 10 that it cost to get Jrue.

The guards that you listed are all incomplete. In order to survive against other NBA point guards, you have to have a 2-way, playmaker that can score when needed. Jrue is all of these things packaged up with size to go against shooting guards. Basically you can throw him out there against the opposing team's best scoring guard and he will make their life miserable for 48 minutes.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...n/point-guards
Check this out. Among point guards Jrue ranked 5th in scoring, 4th in rebounding, 4th in assists, 9th in steals, 2nd in blocks and 3rd in minutes per game.

Going back to that night, I don't know of a single person who would've kept the kid with an ACL tear and an unknown future instead of packaging him with another pick to get an All-Star point guard. Jrue had just come off a good playoff performance as well.
Hindsight is 20/20. Dell saw a chance to accelerate the rebuild around Davis and took it.

I really don't see the hype behind Noel. Maybe it's the flat top? Seems like a good kid, but I see Tyson Chandler as his ceiling.
He would've been a nice piece but, being too skinny to play center means there'd be no minutes for him here so he was gone from the moment we took him. No one could foresee Jrue getting hurt.

On the flipside, using my future goggles sees an alternate Pelicans reality with Elfrid Payton running the point and Nerlens Noel coming off the bench. Could've been nice if chemistry meshed, but big men generally take longer to adjust to the NBA. When the clock's ticking on Anthony Davis (one of the rarest instances of a big man taking little time to develop) you can't afford to wait.

But if Jrue can come back from this setback at 75% capacity, we still got the better deal.

[pelicanchamp]

Jrue is better than Noel.

[pelicanchamp]

LOL. You're cute. I've seen better trolls though. Work on your game. This post says all I needed.

Maybe at one time you bought something of value to this board. Maybe one day I will see that and maybe one day after that I will see more posts of substance and value then I do of you trolling and searching for low hanging fruit to attack that derails threads and adds nothing of value. And maybe, just maybe, you will one day hold yourself to the same standards you ask others to hold themselves too.

....I won't hold my breath though.

42 is very limited ignore him

[Caffeinedisastr]

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/point-guard/

Holiday 13th in pay for PGs. (for some reason Tyreke Evans ahead listed as PG)

Dragic & Irving behind him, but are about to get big money this offseason.

Only 2 behind him I'd even consider are Teague/Conley.

[UptownFuz504]

Edit: I failed to mention that if Jrue had played, Westbrook would've scored significantly less against us the last 2 games and IMO we would be 4-0 against Thunder.

This is conjecture. We have no idea how many points Westbrook would have scored. Chances are, he would have done the same. He's been killing EVERYBODY lately.

Edit: Bongzilla stole my Thunder (pun intended)

[lawless522]

The guards that you listed are all incomplete. In order to survive against other NBA point guards, you have to have a 2-way, playmaker that can score when needed. Jrue is all of these things packaged up with size to go against shooting guards. Basically you can throw him out there against the opposing team's best scoring guard and he will make their life miserable for 48 minutes.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...n/point-guards
Check this out. Among point guards Jrue ranked 5th in scoring, 4th in rebounding, 4th in assists, 9th in steals, 2nd in blocks and 3rd in minutes per game.

Going back to that night, I don't know of a single person who would've kept the kid with an ACL tear and an unknown future instead of packaging him with another pick to get an All-Star point guard. Jrue had just come off a good playoff performance as well.
Hindsight is 20/20. Dell saw a chance to accelerate the rebuild around Davis and took it.

I really don't see the hype behind Noel. Maybe it's the flat top? Seems like a good kid, but I see Tyson Chandler as his ceiling.
He would've been a nice piece but, being too skinny to play center means there'd be no minutes for him here so he was gone from the moment we took him. No one could foresee Jrue getting hurt.

On the flipside, using my future goggles sees an alternate Pelicans reality with Elfrid Payton running the point and Nerlens Noel coming off the bench. Could've been nice if chemistry meshed, but big men generally take longer to adjust to the NBA. When the clock's ticking on Anthony Davis (one of the rarest instances of a big man taking little time to develop) you can't afford to wait.

But if Jrue can come back from this setback at 75% capacity, we still got the better deal.

I didn’t mean for it to come across as though I would take every one of those point guards over a healthy Jrue Holiday. I was just trying to illustrate how available point guards are in the NBA. Looking back to 2013, we could’ve also made the push to sign Jeff Teague, as was previously suggested, or gone after Eric Bledsoe when the Clippers were looking to unload him. Maybe we don’t get them and draft Payton as you suggested. Who knows? I’m just saying, Jrue’s value is always going to be somewhat offset by the availability of players at the position and what we gave up to get him.

As for the trade, just being honest, I wasn’t excited about it. I certainly understand why we did it, but I thought we were gambling a bit giving up two 1st rounders for Jrue after that one breakout season. You pointed out Jrue’s numbers that year and they were awesome, but I can remember a lot of people commenting at the time that those stats were somewhat inflated because he was a good player on a terrible 76ers team. No one disputed that he was good, but people did question whether he was great.

Actually, now that I think about it, if we don’t do the deal for Jrue and keep Noel, then we probably don’t make the trade for Asik and save that #1 pick as well. Technically, Jrue Holiday has cost us 3 consecutive first rounders. I’m not extraordinarily high on Noel either, but, if he developed into a Tyson Chandler type, that would have been just fine with me. I think we both agree that a healthy Jrue is the better player, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on 1) If Jrue, even healthy, was worth the picks?, and 2) Would you rather have Asik or Noel?

[PELICANSFAN]

If it were just choosing Jrue or Noel, I would take Jrue. However, it is about an injury prone Jrue, $8 million in cap space and another #1 pick versus Noel. In hindsight, it would be hard to argue that we could not have gotten similar or better production out of the $8 million and additional #1 and still had Noel. However, Dell did not have hindsight when making the deal. He gambled large, and thus far it has not paid off. Hopefully, it will.

[pelicanblaze]

it does not matter if it noel vs jrue u gave up two first round pick for somebody that can't stay on the court
noel didn't play last year so that a washed but if we all dreaming what player would have been 2014 pick plus noel

[Asteptooslow]

Jrue only played one game against Westbrook and Durant was there, so his points would be less. Jrue did play well, but it is a small sample size.

[billfromfinance]

People completely missed the OP's statement "assuming both are healthy", considering it was the opening line of his post, I'm not sure how.

[42]

+100

42 you are a troll, but you do not realize it. You are a troll who feels you are on a crusade of internet debating and grammar justice! How laughable and ironic that you mention a lack of substance in my post, that is your forte.


This is one of those situations where you feel kinda bad for laughing, because we are just not sure what we are dealing with.

Keep waving your flag my man. FORUM JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED!!!!

You have no idea what you are talking about because you are talking about me, and it shows.

Try making a point one day.

[42]

42 is very limited ignore him

So why aren't you?

[42]

People completely missed the OP's statement "assuming both are healthy", considering it was the opening line of his post, I'm not sure how.

They don't read topics.

Jrue is injured, but he is poised to contribute when Davis is ascending. Until we have a full set of key players (need another wing), none of the future plays (Noel) matter.

If you are analying this team without squarely taking into account Davis and his timeline, you need to broaden your analysis.

[DRDJ1]

So Darren Sharper was 42 on the Saints Superbowl victorious team. The Saints defeated the Colts who were quarterbacked by Payton Manning who left the colts to go to the Bronco's. Payton went back to the Superbowl with the Bronco's in 2014. So who is the GOAT? 42 or Bronco?

[lawless522]

People completely missed the OP's statement "assuming both are healthy", considering it was the opening line of his post, I'm not sure how.

They don't read topics.

Not for nothing, but I think most people adhered to the "assuming both players are healthy" caveat. However, don't forget the OP's original question was referring to "at this moment." Secondary to that, he asks about who you'd want for the long haul as well. When deciding long term fit, I think it's a permissible interpretation to take our "at this moment" healthy Jrue Holiday and factor in salary, expectations, and, yes, any possible recurring injury.

Jrue is injured, but he is poised to contribute when Davis is ascending. Until we have a full set of key players (need another wing), none of the future plays (Noel) matter.

If you are analying this team without squarely taking into account Davis and his timeline, you need to broaden your analysis.

I wish I could share your sentiment that Jrue will be ready to contribute when AD is ascending, but, though you pass that off as an eventuality, stress fractures are problematic and often times to lead to future issues...as we've already seen. Generally, for a small market team to be successful, you build through the draft and by adding a couple of veteran role players. However, I feel this team has attempted to fast track that success by forgoing our draft picks in favor of pricy veterans who, while talented, haven't shown near enough to be considered a core piece to this team's future.

[42]

Not for nothing, but I think most people adhered to the "assuming both players are healthy" caveat. However, don't forget the OP's original question was referring to "at this moment." Secondary to that, he asks about who you'd want for the long haul as well. When deciding long term fit, I think it's a permissible interpretation to take our "at this moment" healthy Jrue Holiday and factor in salary, expectations, and, yes, any possible recurring injury.



I wish I could share your sentiment that Jrue will be ready to contribute when AD is ascending, but, though you pass that off as an eventuality, stress fractures are problematic and often times to lead to future issues...as we've already seen. Generally, for a small market team to be successful, you build through the draft and by adding a couple of veteran role players. However, I feel this team has attempted to fast track that success by forgoing our draft picks in favor of pricy veterans who, while talented, haven't shown near enough to be considered a core piece to this team's future.

As far as the reading, some did, some did not. You are talking about the former mostly, I and the other guy were talking about the latter exclusively.

Stress fractures are not problematic, and what we have seen is likely Jrue working too hard. Time will tell. You can provide examples of guards (giants with stress fractures in their feet are irrelevant, as you know).

Your build through the draft comment is supported by which teams? All teams draft some players, ao building through the draft means something specific.

What is it you mean?

I say a decent definition is: a team that wins a title with a "top pick" they drafted who was continuously on their team.

Thoughts? We can mess around with what top pick means in the lottery era. 1? Top 3? Top 5?

[PELICANSFAN]

Jrue is injured, but he is poised to contribute when Davis is ascending. Until we have a full set of key players (need another wing), none of the future plays (Noel) matter.

There is nothing we have seen that guarantees that. Actually, the greater concern is that he has a chronic injury that will plague him in the future. If I knew for sure he would be healthy going forward I could agree.

[Perth_Hornet]

Noel would have been able to have been flipped for a very good SF.