Pelicans finalizing trade for Asik

[Mythrol]

It's not wrong, you just choose to ignore the 5 examples I gave you. So arguing with you is pointless and it's why I stopped responding to anything FT related.

I addressed every single player you posted. I ignored nothing. And I listed far more REAL examples of players improving here. You choose not to accept it, but facts are facts and your entire argument that our coaches are bad at helping players improve their FT shooting is 100% wrong. No fact agrees with this statement and it was just a way for you to try and make The Asik trade look bad. Accept it and move on, or not, but don't sit there and try to act like you are spouting off facts about our FT shooting because the numbers tell the exact opposite story.

[tyler]

Hibbert is def better offensively, he has a post game

yea I doubt that... the dude had multiple 0pt 0rb games in the playoffs... and f you call that a post game then Asik looks like The Dream. lol

[Mythrol]

Wait. In what world is Hibbert better on offense? He's straight garbage and Asik is clearly better. Look at the numbers.

[Mythrol]

Asik - 53% from 2pt, 57% TS, 53% eFG, 109 ORtg.
Hibb - 44% from 2p, 50% TS, 44% eFG, 100 ORtg.

The only thing Hibbert did better was shoot FTs but it wasn't anywhere near enough to make up for how bad he was on offense. Asik blows him away on offense.

[RaisingTheBar]

I addressed every single player you posted. I ignored nothing. And I listed far more REAL examples of players improving here. You choose not to accept it, but facts are facts and your entire argument that our coaches are bad at helping players improve their FT shooting is 100% wrong. No fact agrees with this statement and it was just a way for you to try and make The Asik trade look bad. Accept it and move on, or not, but don't sit there and try to act like you are spouting off facts about our FT shooting because the numbers tell the exact opposite story.

Let's go back to my original quote so you can leave me alone:

"Thing that sucks is that most players don't improve their FT shooting when they come here. They usually improve when they leave"

So 1st of all, note the phrase "when they come here" so any player that didn't come from another NBA team (Rivers, Roberts, Davis) why would you even bring them up to try and prove your point?

Moving on, "They usually improve when they leave" is a fact. I gave you 5 examples that proved that fact, which you tried to disprove but like you said facts are facts and I was correct ins saying that. So accept what I said instead of what you misconceived it to be, and let's move on.

The reason I know you just like starting crap is right here "it was just a way for you to try and make The Asik trade look bad". The problem with your misconception is that I love the Asik trade and haven't said a single thing negative about the trade. So just go away now.

[David Fisher]

I disagree that because you can dump the ball into Hibbert in the post means you should.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ikom01&y2=2013

[da ThRONe]

Asik shot chart
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...layerID=201600

Hibbert shot chart
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...layerID=201579

[Mythrol]

Let's go back to my original quote so you can leave me alone:

"Thing that sucks is that most players don't improve their FT shooting when they come here. They usually improve when they leave"

So 1st of all, note the phrase "when they come here" so any player that didn't come from another NBA team (Rivers, Roberts, Davis) why would you even bring them up to try and prove your point?

Moving on, "They usually improve when they leave" is a fact. I gave you 5 examples that proved that fact, which you tried to disprove but like you said facts are facts and I was correct ins saying that. So accept what I said instead of what you misconceived it to be, and let's move on.

The reason I know you just like starting crap is right here "it was just a way for you to try and make The Asik trade look bad". The problem with your misconception is that I love the Asik trade and haven't said a single thing negative about the trade. So just go away now.

So you ignored my post where I answered every single one of those players and only ONE - Chandler, clearly improved and it was with an entirely different coaching staff / owner.

There's far more evidence that players, under is coaching staff, improve when they come here. This is a fact. Not the other way around.

This started because you tried to make two claims. 1) That Asik would close out games. 2) That players improve once they leave here and don't improve while they are here. The first part we can't answer yet, but there's nothing that points to Asik closing out even most games as long as we have Anderson.

The second point can be determined, and it did go back and check. The fact is the opposite. More players who have spent at least 2 years under Monty have improved while here. Fact. The second part about players leaving and improving paints a far different picture, some years they shoot better, some years worse. All within range of each other. Except one player and Monty had nothing to do with him. That's not even mentioning players who have left and gotten worse, like Jarett Jack.

As far as not liking Asik, I got your comment fixed up with the person who said what's to stop players from Hack-Asiking.

[Mythrol]

Asik shot chart
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...layerID=201600

Hibbert shot chart
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...layerID=201579

Thanks! I forgot to even mention shot charts, you see just how bad Hibbert is for the large majority of his shots (around the rim) compared to Asik in that. Hibbert tries to be something he's not and take jump shots. Asik stick to what he does at least average and that is play around the rim.

[RaisingTheBar]

So you ignored my post where I answered every single one of those players and only ONE - Chandler, clearly improved and it was with an entirely different coaching staff / owner.

There's far more evidence that players, under is coaching staff, improve when they come here. This is a fact. Not the other way around.

This started because you tried to make two claims. 1) That Asik would close out games. 2) That players improve once they leave here and don't improve while they are here. The first part we can't answer yet, but there's nothing that points to Asik closing out even most games as long as we have Anderson.

The second point can be determined, and it did go back and check. The fact is the opposite. More players who have spent at least 2 years under Monty have improved while here. Fact. The second part about players leaving and improving paints a far different picture, some years they shoot better, some years worse. All within range of each other. Except one player and Monty had nothing to do with him. That's not even mentioning players who have left and gotten worse, like Jarett Jack.

As far as not liking Asik, I got your comment fixed up with the person who said what's to stop players from Hack-Asiking.

I didn't ignore you, you were just wrong. All of the players I listed improved their FT %'s after leaving here, that is a fact don't try and claim it isn't because you feel it wasn't a significant improvement.

I never claimed Asik would close out games, I have no idea. I am just assuming he would at least more than half of the time.

Secondly, you missed what I said about once players come here, Rivers came here from college, why would anyone think that a college coach is superior to an NBA? My statement was directed at players who had prior NBA coaching then came here, or starting here and then leaving. You know that is what I meant so let's just stop with this. Your argument is now down to 2 or 3 eligible players, since Roberts, Rivers and Davis had no prior NBA coaching before coming here and haven't left for another team.

[Mythrol]

I didn't ignore you, you were just wrong. All of the players I listed improved their FT %'s after leaving here, that is a fact don't try and claim it isn't because you feel it wasn't a significant improvement.

I never claimed Asik would close out games, I have no idea. I am just assuming he would at least more than half of the time.

Secondly, you missed what I said about once players come here, Rivers came here from college, why would anyone think that a college coach is superior to an NBA? My statement was directed at players who had prior NBA coaching then came here, or starting here and then leaving. You know that is what I meant so let's just stop with this. Your argument is now down to 2 or 3 eligible players, since Roberts, Rivers and Davis had no prior NBA coaching before coming here and haven't left for another team.

But they don't. Like I said some years they shoot better. Some years worse. All within range of each other even with the ones that did improve. I don't understand how you can discredit Brian Roberts for a 3% jump when most of the players you listed had that or less of a jump. Or have always shot within a specific range their entire career - before or after the Pels.

As far as knowing you were taking about only NBA players, that's crazy. You claimed "thing that sucks is that most players don't improve their FT shooting when they come here" and "like our FT shooting coach sucks or doesn't exist". All those players have played at least 2 years for us and have all improved here. So do we have a FT coach or not? Now it feels like you are trying to cherry pick the numbers to make your story stronger.

[RaisingTheBar]

But they don't. Like I said some years they shoot better. Some years worse. All within range of each other even with the ones that did improve. I don't understand how you can discredit Brian Roberts for a 3% jump when most of the players you listed had that or less of a jump. Or have always shot within a specific range their entire career - before or after the Pels.

As far as knowing you were taking about only NBA players, that's crazy. You claimed "thing that sucks is that most players don't improve their FT shooting when they come here" and "like our FT shooting coach sucks or doesn't exist". All those players have played at least 2 years for us and have all improved here. So do we have a FT coach or not? Now it feels like you are trying to cherry pick the numbers to make your story stronger.

I feel that no matter how try and explain it you just really don't care what anyone else besides yourself has to say. This is why I dropped it before. I didn't discredit Roberts jump, IIRC I said it was excellent, I just don't think someone who shot 91% received extensive coaching on improving his shot.

If a player started on the same team and doesn't leave, or didn't come from a previous team, how can you not see how that doesn't apply to my original statement? Can we just stop this already?

[Ludiculous]

Thanks! I forgot to even mention shot charts, you see just how bad Hibbert is for the large majority of his shots (around the rim) compared to Asik in that. Hibbert tries to be something he's not and take jump shots. Asik stick to what he does at least average and that is play around the rim.

Yeah shot selection and IQ has a lot to do with it. Even if Hibbert has a better post game it doesn't matter if he tries to do stuff that he clearly cant.

[Mythrol]

I feel that no matter how try and explain it you just really don't care what anyone else besides yourself has to say. This is why I dropped it before. I didn't discredit Roberts jump, IIRC I said it was excellent, I just don't think someone who shot 91% received extensive coaching on improving his shot.

If a player started on the same team and doesn't leave, or didn't come from a previous team, how can you not see how that doesn't apply to my original statement? Can we just stop this already?

I listen to everyone's argument. But I call people out on stuff that doesn't make sense to me or if I fact check it and see it is actually wrong. I'm very consistent with this. I've done it to everyone. Even MM when he asked for someone to sell him on Hamilton and tried to say he was a bad shooter, but wanted PJ Tucker. If it involves numbers, I'm all about it.

I still don't understand why we can't include College or Europe players. If we have a horrible FT coach it shouldn't matter who he is teaching, it should be consistent. Instead what we find is it's actually the minority of players who do NOT improve while here. But I agree. The facts are already posted for people to see, there isn't a huge point is continuing this.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Why do I gotta be pulled into this (pointless) debate? What did I do???

[Mythrol]

Yeah shot selection and IQ has a lot to do with it. Even if Hibbert has a better post game it doesn't matter if he tries to do stuff that he clearly cant.

Yep. And when you consider that Hibbert is actually terrible around the rim I don't even see this post game people are trying to say he has.

Put it in other terms; Austin Rivers finished 0-3ft of the basket within 1% of what Hibbert's 0-3 FG% was.

[RaisingTheBar]

I listen to everyone's argument. But I call people out on stuff that doesn't make sense to me or if I fact check it and see it is actually wrong. I'm very consistent with this. I've done it to everyone. Even MM when he asked for someone to sell him on Hamilton and tried to say he was a bad shooter, but wanted PJ Tucker. If it involves numbers, I'm all about it.

I still don't understand why we can't include College or Europe players. If we have a horrible FT coach it shouldn't matter who he is teaching, it should be consistent. Instead what we find is it's actually the minority of players who do NOT improve while here. But I agree. The facts are already posted for people to see, there isn't a huge point is continuing this.

I seriously think you are have reached trolling level. I've asked probably 3 times now if we can let the pointless debate go. I have no problems with the facts because I already looked it up before I posted. I know what I meant don't try and tell me otherwise.

[MichaelMcNamara]

Anybody got names of FT shooting coaches we should target? Can we get them?

[PelsFan2313]

Why is this still the topic of conversation on this thread? Those invested in said debate should make their own super neat free throw shooting thread.

[Ludiculous]

Yep. And when you consider that Hibbert is actually terrible around the rim I don't even see this post game people are trying to say he has.

Put it in other terms; Austin Rivers finished 0-3ft of the basket within 1% of what Hibbert's 0-3 FG% was.

That's why I put a big if there. I wasn't sure if Hibbert had a post game outside of the playoffs I watched like 0 pacers games

[AirForce1]

Chip England (spelling ??) is the reason Parker can shoot.

[JunkHead]

Don't suggest making a new thread! Someone will! Noooooooooooooo!!!

[da ThRONe]

Thanks! I forgot to even mention shot charts, you see just how bad Hibbert is for the large majority of his shots (around the rim) compared to Asik in that. Hibbert tries to be something he's not and take jump shots. Asik stick to what he does at least average and that is play around the rim.

The guy can't score more than 3ft away from the basket. And it's not as if he creates with his post ability. He can clean up other players misses and finish on plays where he's cutting.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I want a frame by frame breakdown of Brian Roberts FT stroke in Europe vs his stroke last year. As a matter of fact, I demand it!

[RaisingTheBar]

Anybody got names of FT shooting coaches we should target? Can we get them?

Whoever Dallas has.

http://www.noahbasketball.com/blog/f...llas-mavericks

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/15/sp...oren.html?_r=0

The Dallas Mavericks, the N.B.A.’s top team this season, are no strangers to winning ways, but in getting an edge on opponents over the past several years, they have gone beyond sheer talent.

The Mavericks have what amounts to a secret weapon in Gary Boren, an investment banker who is the N.B.A.’s lone free-throw coach.

Despite Boren’s success, no other teams have hired a free-throw coach.

“It’s so simple what’s going on here,” Boren said. “It’s just crazy that there’s no other free throw coaches in the league.”

That article is really old. 2007 to be exact. But as of that time no other team besides Dallas had a FT coach.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...-march-madness

And there's a lot to work on. Gary Boren has been the Dallas Mavericks' free-throw coach for 17 years. The Mavericks have ranked no worse than ninth in free-throw shooting since 1999, finishing first or second 10 times. Boren videotapes each player practicing, then goes over a list of 39 criteria the player should meet to become a proficient free-throw shooter.

"You have to practice like it's serious business," Boren said. "There are some coaches who bring the media in and tell players to shoot free throws and they're out there like it's a Sunday school picnic."

Coaches today do not train their players to try to win games at the free-throw line," he said. "They try to win during regular play. But this could very well be an important, lost opportunity."

I find this stuff interesting. MM why do you think no other teams invest in FT coaches? Since 1999 the Mavs have finished no less than 9th in that category.