last year's trade for Jrue Holiday was one-sided

[da ThRONe]

..only that's not true. It's actually provable.

I'm at work (don't get fired) and don't have time to do it, but all you do is set your criteria: Winning Championships, Playoff Appearances, or "Contending" (you'd have to clearly define what contending means), and then set your criteria for being a key contributor to that team (I'd suggest minutes). You can look at the last 10 years (arbitrary) or determine the modern NBA (the advent of Free Agency) or do forever.

It's definitely a quantifiable thing. The only thing that should be up for debate is your criteria.

But, you attempt to make it subjective, say it's your opinion, and simultaneously say it's a "higher percentage".

Don't you see how that is inconsistent and flawed? Seriously. I'm not even sure you're wrong about your premise, I just know you're debate/argument/expression tactic is kind of wack. IMHO. Or put another way, the way you're going about this discussion has a high percentage chance of being unsuccessful

I'll be interested in what your resource digs up.

Also I should apologize for my improper usage of the word "percentage". Percentage is certainly a quantifiable word. Since I haven't done the work I shouldn't use it.

[UNO Gracias]

I enjoy BSS's to an extent. They have a few far out articles where they try passing opinion off as fact (ala Aaron Brooks not being the 3rd best qb in Saints history). They have some good writers who are probably underpaid for the work they do.

[NMThreeMVP]

I'll be interested in what your resource digs up.

Also I should apologize for my improper usage of the word "percentage". Percentage is certainly a quantifiable word. Since I haven't done the work I shouldn't use it.

Hahaha.. no need to apologize. Just don't let it happen again!

I've found it's just better to preface all my opinions, with "I'm pulling this thought out of my butt, that being said..."

[UNO Gracias]

Hahaha.. no need to apologize. Just don't let it happen again!

I've found it's just better to preface all my opinions, with "I'm pulling this thought out of my butt, that being said..."

I'll be the first to say that you have pulled some pretty amazing stuff out of your butt. Keep it up.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I enjoy BSS's to an extent. They have a few far out articles where they try passing opinion off as fact (ala Aaron Brooks not being the 3rd best qb in Saints history). They have some good writers who are probably underpaid for the work they do.

Dont get the Brooks thing you are talking about. We are a Pelicans site, but beyond that, not one person gets a single cent. Not one. Thousands an hour a year bringing content better than any garbage local paper and nobody has ever made a dime and probably never will.

I can take somebody blasting me or one of my pieces, but I cant stand when people dont show appreciation for one of my other guys who busts his butt only to have someone throw some quip about him not covering some small thing to his liking. If not for BSS and the Bird Rights, Pelicans fans would have basically the T-P for their Pelicans analysis and information. Because you know the national media doesn't say anything unless it is to make some joke.

So, no, my Cherrios didnt get pee'd in - I just wish people would think about for one second what they would have if not for the tireless efforts of people who ask for nothing in return

[Mythrol]

Dont get the Brooks thing you are talking about. We are a Pelicans site, but beyond that, not one person gets a single cent. Not one. Thousands an hour a year bringing content better than any garbage local paper and nobody has ever made a dime and probably never will.

I can take somebody blasting me or one of my pieces, but I cant stand when people dont show appreciation for one of my other guys who busts his butt only to have someone throw some quip about him not covering some small thing to his liking. If not for BSS and the Bird Rights, Pelicans fans would have basically the T-P for their Pelicans analysis and information. Because you know the national media doesn't say anything unless it is to make some joke.

So, no, my Cherrios didnt get pee'd in - I just wish people would think about for one second what they would have if not for the tireless efforts of people who ask for nothing in return

That's one thing I can say I greatly appreciate. No matter the opinion difference, pouring over hours of data to write pieces is a great gift to us.

I am curious, I don't know if you can answer this or not. When you guys traveled to summer league in Vegas was that covered through the team, through the ESPN network affiliation, or did that have to come out of pocket? Obviously that doesn't taint my opinion one way or the other it's just something I was curious about because BBS doesn't really have ads.

[DRDJ1]

Dont get the Brooks thing you are talking about. We are a Pelicans site, but beyond that, not one person gets a single cent. Not one. Thousands an hour a year bringing content better than any garbage local paper and nobody has ever made a dime and probably never will.

I can take somebody blasting me or one of my pieces, but I cant stand when people dont show appreciation for one of my other guys who busts his butt only to have someone throw some quip about him not covering some small thing to his liking. If not for BSS and the Bird Rights, Pelicans fans would have basically the T-P for their Pelicans analysis and information. Because you know the national media doesn't say anything unless it is to make some joke.

So, no, my Cherrios didnt get pee'd in - I just wish people would think about for one second what they would have if not for the tireless efforts of people who ask for nothing in return

Thank all of you for your work cause NOLA.com content is garbage especially the opinionated malcontent JS who really should just go away and retire

[UNO Gracias]

Oh don't get it twisted. The remark about being underpaid was a compliment.

As for the Aaron Brooks comment, I got BSS mixed up with Canal St Cronicals (or whatever that site is called). Mea Culpa.

Keep up the good work.

[eballa1]

I live in Baton Rouge and if it wasn't for BSS and McNamara coming on Matt Moscona's show, we'd get zero basketball news. If it isn't LSU, The Advocate isn't covering it. Local TV will poke fun at the Pels if something crazy happens, but they are too busy with high school football previews and recaps to ever consider covering the NBA.

[Ludiculous]

Here's the thing- How many guys on rookie contracts are contributing for contenders - about 1 per team, right?

We talk about young guys but they really don't make a huge impact until they get to their second contract. So, even if we kept the picks, we would have to pay them by the time they were really helping us win. Meanwhile, you waste ADs rookie contract.

Instead, maximize AD's rookie deal and just wait and see- Evans and Jrue's deals will be crazy bargins in years 2 and 3 as the cap keeps going up. By year 3, they might not be amongst the top 80-90 paid players. Just think about that.

Yes, rookies are a value now but best case scenario is they do well and you gotta give them crazy money. Worst case scenario they bust. And what about the middle? Soon, Golden State will have to decide whether they want to match a max deal to Klay Thompson. Those decisions are terrible. We just avoided that with Jrue and Tyreke for three more years.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You summed up everything I think. Great post

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[da ThRONe]

You summed up everything I think. Great post

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

You don't see the contradiction in his logic? On one hand he's saying how these guys are basically useless until their second contracts on the other hand he's saying they will command inflated contracts before or after they reach their RFA period.

[Ludiculous]

You don't see the contradiction in his logic? On one hand he's saying how these guys are basically useless until their second contracts on the other hand he's saying they will command inflated contracts before or after they reach their RFA period.

What he is saying is we skipped the wait and see process. You have with rookies, hoping that they pan out in the nba and contribute. We have guys that could contribute now. And are both incredibly young. With rookies they come in and aren't to the point to where they can contribute right away wasting precious AD time. By the time a rookies contract is done jrue and Tyreke's are both going to be finished. So at that point in time if we don't like the way they play we let the them walk and we can offer money to some of those over performing rookies that you are obsessed with.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[Nola7]

I understand we are talking Nerlens Noel, Jure Holiday, and a unknown asset to be acquired this season by the 76ers but honestly after the rookie season of Michael Carter Williams my regret is under valuing him. At this point I don't think anyone in the Pelicans front office can honestly say they would redo the deal on today May 30, 2014 with all current events being the same. And that would not be a knock on Jrue, I think he is a quality talent but right now an argument can be made that we over paid. 2 Top 10 Picks for a talent is nothing to sneeze at.

[WhoDatPelican]

I understand we are talking Nerlens Noel, Jure Holiday, and a unknown asset to be acquired this season by the 76ers but honestly after the rookie season of Michael Carter Williams my regret is under valuing him. At this point I don't think anyone in the Pelicans front office can honestly say they would redo the deal on today May 30, 2014 with all current events being the same. And that would not be a knock on Jrue, I think he is a quality talent but right now an argument can be made that we over paid. 2 Top 10 Picks for a talent is nothing to sneeze at.

Disagree, I think Dell still pulls the trigger on Jrue. If i'm not mistaken he has stated on a few occasions he see's Jrue as the starting PG on a championship team.

[Spaniard]

I understand we are talking Nerlens Noel, Jure Holiday, and a unknown asset to be acquired this season by the 76ers but honestly after the rookie season of Michael Carter Williams my regret is under valuing him. At this point I don't think anyone in the Pelicans front office can honestly say they would redo the deal on today May 30, 2014 with all current events being the same. And that would not be a knock on Jrue, I think he is a quality talent but right now an argument can be made that we over paid. 2 Top 10 Picks for a talent is nothing to sneeze at.

MCW was 40.5% from the field, 26.4% from 3, 70.3% FT, with a TS% of 48%!!!

Austin Rivers had a TS% of 48.2%.

Yeah, saying I'm good with Jrue is one massive understatement.

[HoustonPelicans]

I'd do the trade everyday and twice on Sundays. Jrue > MCW and it's honestly not even close.
If Jrue was in last year draft, knowing what we know, he would've been the number 1 pick and probably top 5-7 pick this year.

[Nola7]

MCW was 40.5% from the field, 26.4% from 3, 70.3% FT, with a TS% of 48%!!!

Austin Rivers had a TS% of 48.2%.

Yeah, saying I'm good with Jrue is one massive understatement.

"I'd do the trade everyday and twice on Sundays. Jrue > MCW and it's honestly not even close.
If Jrue was in last year draft, knowing what we know, he would've been the number 1 pick and probably top 5-7 pick this year." - HoustonPelicans

Nowhere in my post did I say MCW was better than Jrue on today, But that does not mean that will always be the case and that does not mean he could not play as an equal at some point. What is undeniable is that he had a very impressive season on a very bad team and had he been selected here at this point we would be no worst off.

[da ThRONe]

What he is saying is we skipped the wait and see process. You have with rookies, hoping that they pan out in the nba and contribute. We have guys that could contribute now. And are both incredibly young. With rookies they come in and aren't to the point to where they can contribute right away wasting precious AD time. By the time a rookies contract is done jrue and Tyreke's are both going to be finished. So at that point in time if we don't like the way they play we let the them walk and we can offer money to some of those over performing rookies that you are obsessed with.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

You aren't addressing my issues with his logic. I understand what he means and respect his right to a different opinion. My point is he takes huge liberties assuming that any player we would have drafted would command a inflated contract coming off a performance that he would say was less impactful than Evans, Anderson, and/or Holiday after their rookie deals. Not to mention those guys will be eligible for larger contracts when it's time to reup. Which would be around the same time are drafted player would be eligible for a contract extension or going into RFA.

If he or anybody else still feel better about the signing young vets I respect it. However that specific point he is making is flawed logically.

[Nola7]

I'd do the trade everyday and twice on Sundays. Jrue > MCW and it's honestly not even close.
If Jrue was in last year draft, knowing what we know, he would've been the number 1 pick and probably top 5-7 pick this year.

Additionally,

Can we calm down a bit lol, I like Jrue as well but lets not talk as if he is a HOF player today.

Jrue Holiday Career Stats 13.5 points per 6.0 assist 3.6 rebounds.

Michael Carter Williams Rookie Season 16.7 points per 6.3 assist 6.2 rebounds

[bradael]

MCW has been what everyone said he was going to be to this point. Good passer, good rebounder due to his size for the position. High turnover rate and poor shooter. He was predicted by many to win rookie of the year because they knew he'd get minutes. He had a solid rookie season, but he also won rookie of the year because this class was terrible as rookies.

And back on the drafting vs trades/free agency for winning championships... You have to go all the way back to the 2007 Spurs to find a team that won a championship that had more than half the players with 2,000+ minutes played that year that were drafted or received as draft day trades. And going back to 2007, only one player with 2,000+ minutes played was still on their rookie contract during the championship season... Rajon Rondo.

[bradael]

Additionally,

Can we calm down a bit lol, I like Jrue as well but lets not talk as if he is a HOF player today.

Jrue Holiday Career Stats 13.5 points per 6.0 assist 3.6 rebounds.

Michael Carter Williams Rookie Season 16.7 points per 6.3 assist 6.2 rebounds

Yes, let's leave out turnovers, shooting percentage, and defense. There's a reason MCW's win shares were so low and he had a negative win shares from offense.

[NMThreeMVP]

MCW has been what everyone said he was going to be to this point. Good passer, good rebounder due to his size for the position. High turnover rate and poor shooter. He was predicted by many to win rookie of the year because they knew he'd get minutes. He had a solid rookie season, but he also won rookie of the year because this class was terrible as rookies.

And back on the drafting vs trades/free agency for winning championships... You have to go all the way back to the 2007 Spurs to find a team that won a championship that had more than half the players with 2,000+ minutes played that year that were drafted or received as draft day trades. And going back to 2007, only one player with 2,000+ minutes played was still on their rookie contract during the championship season... Rajon Rondo.

FINALLY! Somebody doing the work in this argument that some folks are trying to present as subjective! It's NOT. Whether or not it's more likely you'll win a championship building through the draft or free agency/trades is QUANTIFIABLE!

Thank you.

I'm also still waiting on the answer to whether or not it's still considered building through the draft if a team trades a player they drafted after a couple of seasons for a player they deem a better fit for their team.

[Nola7]

MCW has been what everyone said he was going to be to this point. Good passer, good rebounder due to his size for the position. High turnover rate and poor shooter. He was predicted by many to win rookie of the year because they knew he'd get minutes. He had a solid rookie season, but he also won rookie of the year because this class was terrible as rookies.

Those 2 weakness in his game can be improved wouldn't you agree? Im not saying he can start shooting the ball like Steve Nash but if he brings his percentages up by shooting better shots i.e. finding a spot on the floor he can become comfortable with and slowing the game down he will be a solid player.

I prefer the build through the draft model. The more flexible you are with your money the better; until you are absolutely sure that you have a roster that only needs minor tweaking never max the cap situation. Its just the responsible way to do business in a small market. Injuries are apart of the game and are no excuse. In my opinion you build a club capable of replacing the Spurs dominance and shoot to win a championship on the back end of Anthony Davis 2nd contract (The one that we would have the ability to match the highest bidder i.e. Eric Gordon) that should have been the plan. Making the playoffs is fun of course but contending for a championship is a whole different thing entirely.

[Nola7]

Yes, let's leave out turnovers, shooting percentage, and defense. There's a reason MCW's win shares were so low and he had a negative win shares from offense.

A previous poster only listed the negative about the player and I responded with his positives to balance the argument. At the end of the day we are discussing return on investment to date and potential ROI and right now we payed a nice premium and I don't expect a return much greater than the asset acquired a few picks down in the same draft.

[NMThreeMVP]

Those 2 weakness in his game can be improved wouldn't you agree? Im not saying he can start shooting the ball like Steve Nash but if he brings his percentages up by shooting better shots i.e. finding a spot on the floor he can become comfortable with and slowing the game down he will be a solid player.

I prefer the build through the draft model. The more flexible you are with your money the better; until you are absolutely sure that you have a roster that only needs minor tweaking never max the cap situation. Its just the responsible way to do business in a small market. Injuries are apart of the game and are no excuse. In my opinion you build a club capable of replacing the Spurs dominance and shoot to win a championship on the back end of Anthony Davis 2nd contract (The one that we have the ability to match the highest bidder i.e. Eric Gordon) that should have been the plan. Making the playoffs is fun of course but contending for a championship is a whole different thing entirely.

I think your timing is off. This team needs to try to be a contending playoff team on the front end of Anthony Davis' second contract. Not the back end when he'll be starting to salivate at other teams success and unrestricted free agency. When you aim for the back end, your window is short and you start reaching to try and add players (Hornets signing Posey) because the pressure to win or lose your superstar is imminent.

I believe the lesson Dell and Monty took from the Chris Paul situation is that they need to build their core competitive group around their future superstar much sooner. Therefor waiting until into Davis' second contract and hoping players you draft are as good as the players you can acquire today is too much of a risk. The only rookies you can't afford to lose are transcendent ones (Parker, Exum, Wiggins, Embiid), and top 5 protecting his future pick was enough protection.

Once you have your superstar, you can't afford to miss in the draft trying to put other rookies around them.

Under Dell's scenario, he'll know much sooner if he has the right guys, and if he doesn't he can reset again before it's too late.