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Thread: 2024 Offseason Thread

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    There is another explanation: habit. Habits are hard to break. He's played that way ever since he's played basketball. It would be like telling Zion to stop driving to the basket with his left hand.
    Habits are hard to break, but it can be done. We see players convert themselves to fit team concepts all the time. Naji grew into a shooter because that's what was asked of him. Herb Jones developed into a shooter despite not being one at all in college (he was a slashing PG in college lmao) because that's what the team's offense and hierarchy demanded of him. CJ even fully accepted just being a completely off-ball player whenever Zion was on the court, because that's what the team demanded of him, and he's been doing his thing since BI was too young to go to the bar and buy drinks.

    So why is BI the only one who either can't or won't?

    Given how much we've heard Green be open and talk publicly about a commitment to threes and taking good shots, to the point where even Griff talked about taking the right shots and playing the right way and focusing on 3s in the exit interview, I get the feeling it's probably an Ingram issue rather than nobody asking him to do things differently.

    Edit: Changed it a bit because although I stand behind the point, I think I was a bit harsh on BI - my whole point is that I don't think it's an aggressive arrogance, just a sort of ego thing. ''Why should I change, I'm good'', not ''screw the coaches I don't care about them''.
    Last edited by Pelicanidae; 05-04-2024 at 05:48 PM.
    Basketball.

  2. #102
    Everytime I get on a search engine and type in some sort of free agency off season rumors, I would see amazing scenarios for other teams like, ?Knicks can land Booker? news.

    But when it comes to the Pelicans, it?s almost always favoring the opposing team in the trade and almost leaves me thinking, ?that?s a shirttty offseason if true?

    It?s just not fair

  3. #103
    To me the most realistic "big" move Griff could make is to get Murray from ATL. It could take several iterations. It was said often in the mid-season discussions that the Hawks were focused on recouping the draft capital they spent acquiring him from the Spurs. So a deal centered on CJ + picks might get it done. But if we go that route I'd be willing to empty the safe sending 3 first rounders (two from Bucks, one from Pels) + CJ, but I want Okongwu in the deal. Hawks get 3 first rounders + a veteran scoring guard who shot 40%+ from 3 last year who is under contract for 2 more years. Pels get long PG who puts up 3 pointers and can handle the ball in the clutch + a dynamic big who has upside though he has had limitations thus far in his career. A Murray/Herb backcourt is long and switchable and could pair with a front line of BI/Zion/Okongwu. We'd be a little small up front but very versatile and Murray like to push up tempo at the point, so we could play faster.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by new city champ View Post
    To me the most realistic "big" move Griff could make is to get Murray from ATL. It could take several iterations. It was said often in the mid-season discussions that the Hawks were focused on recouping the draft capital they spent acquiring him from the Spurs. So a deal centered on CJ + picks might get it done. But if we go that route I'd be willing to empty the safe sending 3 first rounders (two from Bucks, one from Pels) + CJ, but I want Okongwu in the deal. Hawks get 3 first rounders + a veteran scoring guard who shot 40%+ from 3 last year who is under contract for 2 more years. Pels get long PG who puts up 3 pointers and can handle the ball in the clutch + a dynamic big who has upside though he has had limitations thus far in his career. A Murray/Herb backcourt is long and switchable and could pair with a front line of BI/Zion/Okongwu. We'd be a little small up front but very versatile and Murray like to push up tempo at the point, so we could play faster.

    I would give up 2 1sts at the most to ATL + CJ + Dyson for Murray + Capela ....The numbers fit.

    then package 3 1sts + Herb + BI for Booker + whichever player they add to make the numbers fit.

    LOL. I know Phoenix wouldn't do it, but hey, it's my dream.
    Last edited by WhyHornetsWhy; 05-05-2024 at 09:43 AM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by WhyHornetsWhy View Post
    Everytime I get on a search engine and type in some sort of free agency off season rumors, I would see amazing scenarios for other teams like, ?Knicks can land Booker? news.

    But when it comes to the Pelicans, it?s almost always favoring the opposing team in the trade and almost leaves me thinking, ?that?s a shirttty offseason if true?

    It?s just not fair
    The important thing to remember is that most big media caters to the fanbases of big teams like the Knicks and Lakers, and their fanbases are completely delusional.

    Reality is, most trades come with pros and cons for both sides. It's fairly rare that anyone pulls off an actual heist (though it does happen). Media will propose 40 different heists over the off-season and almost none of them ever happen. When trades do happen, they're usually a lot more balanced.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by new city champ View Post
    To me the most realistic "big" move Griff could make is to get Murray from ATL. It could take several iterations. It was said often in the mid-season discussions that the Hawks were focused on recouping the draft capital they spent acquiring him from the Spurs. So a deal centered on CJ + picks might get it done. But if we go that route I'd be willing to empty the safe sending 3 first rounders (two from Bucks, one from Pels) + CJ, but I want Okongwu in the deal. Hawks get 3 first rounders + a veteran scoring guard who shot 40%+ from 3 last year who is under contract for 2 more years. Pels get long PG who puts up 3 pointers and can handle the ball in the clutch + a dynamic big who has upside though he has had limitations thus far in his career. A Murray/Herb backcourt is long and switchable and could pair with a front line of BI/Zion/Okongwu. We'd be a little small up front but very versatile and Murray like to push up tempo at the point, so we could play faster.
    God, shipping out a whole heap of picks and downgrading shooting while also keeping BI makes me incredibly depressed.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    God, shipping out a whole heap of picks and downgrading shooting while also keeping BI makes me incredibly depressed.
    Do you like it better if we send BI to Hawks in a deal for Murray and Okongwu? Alt starting five is DeJounte/CJ/Trey/Zion/Onyeka. Pels could probably keep a pick in that scenario, but that hinges on Hawks interest in BI in last year of his deal.

    Dejounte was an ok shooter from 3 last year at just over 36% on 7+ attempts/game. I'd be ecstatic to get that from Brandon...

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by new city champ View Post
    Do you like it better if we send BI to Hawks in a deal for Murray and Okongwu? Alt starting five is DeJounte/CJ/Trey/Zion/Onyeka. Pels could probably keep a pick in that scenario, but that hinges on Hawks interest in BI in last year of his deal.

    Dejounte was an ok shooter from 3 last year at just over 36% on 7+ attempts/game. I'd be ecstatic to get that from Brandon...
    It's not my favourite deal, but I'd prefer it for sure. Dejounte fits better positionally and I think I believe in the 3pt shooting. Not to be a dynamic monster shooter but I think he'll be a guy you can assume will hit 36-38% most years, on good volume - which is fine.

    It's kind of the tradeoff between Dejounte and Trae. Dejounte is a better defender (or at least, has shown that he can be) and less of a ball hog, and costs less, but the downside is that his shooting threat is only medium and his playmaking isn't quite as dynamite. By comparison, Trae is an excellent playmaker and will pull-up on ridiculous volumes of 3s from ridiculously deep, but won't pass the ball unless he's assist hunting and gets targeted on defense.

  9. #109
    Id rather the trade with the Pistons than the Hawks
    id take Jalen Duren and a top 5 pick this year

  10. #110
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullcourtpress View Post
    Id rather the trade with the Pistons than the Hawks
    id take Jalen Duren and a top 5 pick this year
    Why is everyone so infatuated with Duren as the centerpiece of a trade for BI? I get that he is young and has potential (and I like him). However, he is not the best fit next to Zion and has made some really dumb plays (including dumb fouls) since coming into the NBA. Not sure what the thought is on his basketball IQ. I would love him as part of a trade, but not the key centerpiece of a trade for BI.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    It's not my favourite deal, but I'd prefer it for sure. Dejounte fits better positionally and I think I believe in the 3pt shooting. Not to be a dynamic monster shooter but I think he'll be a guy you can assume will hit 36-38% most years, on good volume - which is fine.

    It's kind of the tradeoff between Dejounte and Trae. Dejounte is a better defender (or at least, has shown that he can be) and less of a ball hog, and costs less, but the downside is that his shooting threat is only medium and his playmaking isn't quite as dynamite. By comparison, Trae is an excellent playmaker and will pull-up on ridiculous volumes of 3s from ridiculously deep, but won't pass the ball unless he's assist hunting and gets targeted on defense.
    Also it's been reported a few places (or at least discussed) that Griff doesn't like Trae Young and doesn't want him on the Pels. I really liked Murray in San Antonio where his last year he was a 21/9/8 player + a good defender. That guy would have been perfect for Pels. He's still been pretty good in ATL but I wouldn't be surprised if getting him away from Trae might help him take a bit of step. This could all be academic. I'd bet Hawks are going to insist on Herb, maybe be even over BI or CJ given his contract and fit next to Trae. Trading Herb is an option the Pels at least have to consider though it would be a bitter pill to swallow absent a great offer...

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    Why is everyone so infatuated with Duren as the centerpiece of a trade for BI? I get that he is young and has potential (and I like him). However, he is not the best fit next to Zion and has made some really dumb plays (including dumb fouls) since coming into the NBA. Not sure what the thought is on his basketball IQ. I would love him as part of a trade, but not the key centerpiece of a trade for BI.
    There is no player in the NBA who has not made some really dumb plays, and that's doubly true if they're 20. Cause Duren is still only 20.

    He's already an elite rebounder. Here's the top 5 rebounding seasons by a 20 year old who also averaged minimum 10ppg:

    - 1992 Shaq - 13.9
    - 2013 Drummond - 13.2
    - 2005 Dwight - 12.5
    - 2023 Duren - 11.6
    - 1974 John Drew - 10.7

    He's also already an elite finisher at the rim. So that's two bankable skills right now, at age 20.

    In terms of fit next to Zion, I think it's fine. JV has gotten worse and worse from 3 over the last few seasons in New Orleans (he shot 30% from there on only 1.5 per game this year) and yet he was a +4.4 this season as a duo with Zion in over 1000 minutes. For comparison, that's actually the best two-man pairing Zion had this year - cleaning the glass helps a lot when it comes to offensive opportunities and providing coverage for the defense, even if you're not stretching the floor. Obviously in a perfect world he'd be shooting 3s too, but we are beggars at this point and cannot therefore be choosers.

    The Duren trade proposal also nets you a top 5 pick and a $30m trade exception, which could be used to parlay with Atlanta into getting Dejounte without them having to take on a bunch of salary, which they would probably appreciate given that they're one of the higher salaries in the league (not at the very top, but the top half) and teams are going to look to be getting off long term money this year before the new CBA comes in next year.

    So if you're losing JV, the Duren trade nets you an immediate replacement who replaces his rebounding immediately, for cheap, on a player who is young enough that there's plenty of optimism for develop, as well as a top 5 pick and it also makes getting another major move done far more achievable.

  13. #113
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    There is no player in the NBA who has not made some really dumb plays, and that's doubly true if they're 20. Cause Duren is still only 20.

    He's already an elite rebounder. Here's the top 5 rebounding seasons by a 20 year old who also averaged minimum 10ppg:

    - 1992 Shaq - 13.9
    - 2013 Drummond - 13.2
    - 2005 Dwight - 12.5
    - 2023 Duren - 11.6
    - 1974 John Drew - 10.7

    He's also already an elite finisher at the rim. So that's two bankable skills right now, at age 20.

    In terms of fit next to Zion, I think it's fine. JV has gotten worse and worse from 3 over the last few seasons in New Orleans (he shot 30% from there on only 1.5 per game this year) and yet he was a +4.4 this season as a duo with Zion in over 1000 minutes. For comparison, that's actually the best two-man pairing Zion had this year - cleaning the glass helps a lot when it comes to offensive opportunities and providing coverage for the defense, even if you're not stretching the floor. Obviously in a perfect world he'd be shooting 3s too, but we are beggars at this point and cannot therefore be choosers.

    The Duren trade proposal also nets you a top 5 pick and a $30m trade exception, which could be used to parlay with Atlanta into getting Dejounte without them having to take on a bunch of salary, which they would probably appreciate given that they're one of the higher salaries in the league (not at the very top, but the top half) and teams are going to look to be getting off long term money this year before the new CBA comes in next year.

    So if you're losing JV, the Duren trade nets you an immediate replacement who replaces his rebounding immediately, for cheap, on a player who is young enough that there's plenty of optimism for develop, as well as a top 5 pick and it also makes getting another major move done far more achievable.
    Everything Duren makes is under 10 feet. Not sure that is a great fit. I think he would be fine as a complimentary part of a trade, but not the centerpiece.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    but won't pass the ball unless he's assist hunting
    This is the part that scares me about Trae Young.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Habits are hard to break, but it can be done. We see players convert themselves to fit team concepts all the time. Naji grew into a shooter because that's what was asked of him. Herb Jones developed into a shooter despite not being one at all in college (he was a slashing PG in college lmao) because that's what the team's offense and hierarchy demanded of him. CJ even fully accepted just being a completely off-ball player whenever Zion was on the court, because that's what the team demanded of him, and he's been doing his thing since BI was too young to go to the bar and buy drinks.

    So why is BI the only one who either can't or won't?
    Probably this is somewhat what you mean about ego but I think the answer is that BI has been much more (individually) successful than the others you mentioned. He was the second pick in the draft, an All-Star, a max contract extension...playing this way has been very good to him, why would he change? CJ is also very accomplished as a player, but is significantly older/more mature.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    This is true if you're playing traditional drop and hedge/recover stuff, but it can be more flexible IF the big you have can switch and do so well, and you have good help and tag set-ups, which we would have with Herb. We managed a top 10 defense three years straight with Jonas Valanciunas as our starting centre. There are a lot of things that Willie and his crew are not good at, but those guys can construct a defense that works, regardless.

    In any case, I don't suggest starting any rookies. In my dream scenario which ends up with Duren and Sarr, Duren would be starting. He'd be going into his third NBA season, aged only 20, having averaged 11.6 RPG last season and at least 17 rebounds per 100 in each of his first two years. Led the league in Defensive Rebounding %age this season. He's not a great defender, largely because Detroit contains nothing on the perimeter (at least, not whenever Thompson is off the floor) but as with Valanciunas, I do trust Willie and his coaching staff to scheme around a slightly sub-par defensive centre, and Duren is still young enough that defensive development is very possible. Especially when you consider that he was very good defensively in college.

    Sarr would be coming off the bench in this scenario, and while I fully expect him to have some rookie teething problems, I think his finishing, offensive rebounding, and perimeter defense will translate immediately, so we'd be getting different looks. That might satisfy Green's desire to see switchy 'small-ball' without having to rely on actually being small, and would help make Nance redundant. Which is good because Nance needs to go.

    I think you're able to get away with slightly less defensive communication from your big when Herb Jones exists.
    If you switch, center is still vitally important because that's the guy getting switched onto all the predator ball handlers. Admittedly I haven't watched Duren much but given the (lack of) success Detroit has had, I'd wonder if he's progressed defensively much more than a rookie. I think a lot will rest on the front office not giving Willie decent alternatives.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by ml wave View Post
    Probably this is somewhat what you mean about ego but I think the answer is that BI has been much more (individually) successful than the others you mentioned. He was the second pick in the draft, an All-Star, a max contract extension...playing this way has been very good to him, why would he change? CJ is also very accomplished as a player, but is significantly older/more mature.
    That is precisely what I mean by ego.

    Playing this way has been good to him so why change?

    Perhaps because you've won 2 playoff games in your life and you're going into your 9th season? Perhaps because you've never won a playoff series in your career and are playing a style of basketball that's been outdated since your rookie year? Perhaps because your team keeps losing winnable games largely due to failures in the offense, at least partially driven by your unwillingness to play in a different way?

    It's team basketball. If you're unable or unwilling to change for the better of the team because something works for you personally, that's ego.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by ml wave View Post
    If you switch, center is still vitally important because that's the guy getting switched onto all the predator ball handlers. Admittedly I haven't watched Duren much but given the (lack of) success Detroit has had, I'd wonder if he's progressed defensively much more than a rookie. I think a lot will rest on the front office not giving Willie decent alternatives.
    He's progressed a bit, he's not an elite defender but as I outlined, you don't have to be an elite defender. We have managed a top 10 defense three years in a row with JV as our centre - he's not an elite defender either, he's barely passable (good in some schemes, awful in others) but because we have the wing talent to prevent massive dribble-penetration anyway, and we have good communication from the wings (Herb is the driving force here) it's fine. WG has so many problems but he has proven he can field a good defense pretty much regardless of who else is on the court.

    Defense is not the problem. Defense has never been this team's problem. Every year under WG we put out a good defense. The defense is fine. We do not need to worry about the defense.

    It's the offense and the rebounding which are the concerns. It's the offense that keeps failing us.

  19. #119
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    He's progressed a bit, he's not an elite defender but as I outlined, you don't have to be an elite defender. We have managed a top 10 defense three years in a row with JV as our centre - he's not an elite defender either, he's barely passable (good in some schemes, awful in others) but because we have the wing talent to prevent massive dribble-penetration anyway, and we have good communication from the wings (Herb is the driving force here) it's fine. WG has so many problems but he has proven he can field a good defense pretty much regardless of who else is on the court.

    Defense is not the problem. Defense has never been this team's problem. Every year under WG we put out a good defense. The defense is fine. We do not need to worry about the defense.

    It's the offense and the rebounding which are the concerns. It's the offense that keeps failing us.
    Do you think Duren is the right replacement to improve the offense over JV?

  20. #120
    Lebron wants JJ ? A reunion with Lue? Lots of laughs

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...jj-redick-buzz

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    Do you think Duren is the right replacement to improve the offense over JV?
    No, but I also think JV's contract has expired and he'll want to go somewhere that actually bothers to use him. I also have concerns that the team won't want to pay him the $15m a year it'll take to retain him. I'm working on the assumption that JV is gone.

    In a perfect world, we'd have a stretch big. There isn't a legitimate one on the market, as far as I can see, at least not one that's likely to actually come here by any means. That's largely why I suggest drafting Sarr if you can - I believe in the shot (all the indicators are there) and if you have both him and Duren then you've got both a classic rebound/rim runner big and a switchy stretch three in the making and you can match-make going forward. Both super young, both super cheap.

    Honestly I think the solution to the offense problem isn't going to come at the C position. It's a coaching issue at its core - WG has said time and again that he's a defense first guy, and he plays like it. He's the sort of guy who doesn't run a creative offense and doesn't really try to. Giving him prime Golden State's roster would be like putting a Lambo engine in a horse cart. He hired Borrego to do it for him and then just ignored him - the one game Borrego actually coached this year when WG was out, the offense looked night-and-day different. That's the problem you have to solve if you truly want to improve the offense.

    The second best option is with lineups, where you say okay, you keep the coach and don't expect them to run good sets, just rely on potent lineups. In that case, Zion + shooters is the best option we've ever had under WG, but Green hates that too. It's an issue.

  22. #122


    This is hilarious. Find Zion.

  23. #123


    More smoke. Weinbach works for ESPN Radio, Sports Illustrated, and Yahoo Sports.

  24. #124
    RIP BDJ AUSSIE_PELICAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post


    More smoke. Weinbach works for ESPN Radio, Sports Illustrated, and Yahoo Sports.
    Love it.
    Can't wait to see the back of him.

  25. #125
    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...a-playoff-exit

    Windhorst on Giannis Trade Rumors: 'No Rumbles' yet on Bucks Star After NBA Playoff Exit

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