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Thread: 2024 Offseason Thread

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    I might cry a bit as well regarding Nance, even though I like him as a player. I don't like small ball. Your stance may be different, and others but I'm a bit old fashioned. I like traditional bigs that can give you a bucket on the block, and protect the paint. There was, in my opinion, a false narrative that small ball was a more effective way to win games in the 4th. This idea seemed to proliferate after Coach Dantoni had some success with it on the Suns. Then Eventually the Warriors.

    I don't see any great alternatives, but I suppose that can change since unlikely opportunities present themselves when trading starts.
    Small ball can be excellent, if you have the personnel for it. People often assume you can just run it, and you can't. If we had the guys for it, I'd support it, but we don't - with the mild exception of when we run Zion at the 5 against backups, but even that is something that I would only run to beat up on backups, not against starters.

    To start, I would like a centre. In a perfect world, that centre would be a legitimate centre size, and could shot block, rebound, and protect the rim.

    That's basically saying in a dream, we've have Wemby, Chet, maybe Jaren Jackson Jr, guys like that. Obviously none of those guys are possibilities. Some people have floated Myles Turner in the past, and I wouldn't hate him (he does have some issues I don't like but he fits those criteria for the most part) but given Indiana's recent success, he's probably not available either.

    In that case, I like JV. I just wish that WG did too. Since he doesn't, I'd rather move him and get a centre who will actually be trusted to play in crunch time, so that the team can build within that context instead of having to play for one way for 45 minutes and then having to ditch guys for the final 3 regardless of how well they've actually played.

    I think that's why I'm so hot on Alexandre Sarr this draft. Partly just because he's the best prospect in a relatively underwhelming draft, but also because he fits the need on this team very well. 7'1 with a 7'5 wingspan, good rim protector, hyper mobile switchable defender, who looks like he's going to shoot and is also a positive passer. Greedy to ask for more, honestly.
    Basketball.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Small ball can be excellent, if you have the personnel for it. People often assume you can just run it, and you can't. If we had the guys for it, I'd support it, but we don't - with the mild exception of when we run Zion at the 5 against backups, but even that is something that I would only run to beat up on backups, not against starters.

    To start, I would like a centre. In a perfect world, that centre would be a legitimate centre size, and could shot block, rebound, and protect the rim.

    That's basically saying in a dream, we've have Wemby, Chet, maybe Jaren Jackson Jr, guys like that. Obviously none of those guys are possibilities. Some people have floated Myles Turner in the past, and I wouldn't hate him (he does have some issues I don't like but he fits those criteria for the most part) but given Indiana's recent success, he's probably not available either.

    In that case, I like JV. I just wish that WG did too. Since he doesn't, I'd rather move him and get a centre who will actually be trusted to play in crunch time, so that the team can build within that context instead of having to play for one way for 45 minutes and then having to ditch guys for the final 3 regardless of how well they've actually played.

    I think that's why I'm so hot on Alexandre Sarr this draft. Partly just because he's the best prospect in a relatively underwhelming draft, but also because he fits the need on this team very well. 7'1 with a 7'5 wingspan, good rim protector, hyper mobile switchable defender, who looks like he's going to shoot and is also a positive passer. Greedy to ask for more, honestly.
    Myles Turner would be an ideal pairing with Zion because he shoots 3's. Also protects the paint. (Lakers were trying to acquire him before the trade deadline.) Outside of him there aren't a lot of bigs that can do that who are available.

    Considering how sparse the pickings are I see why you're looking to the draft. It seems to make the most sense. I'll look into Alexandre Sarr.
    Last edited by Nichols; 05-01-2024 at 07:24 PM.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    I'll look into Alexandre Sarr.
    https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/alex...ted-number-one

    Excellent article on Sarr by Ignacio Rissotto, one of the better draft writers still available (several others, mostly who used to work for The Stepien, have been snapped up by front offices in the last few years) covering why Sarr is great. He's compared to multiple other tall, relatively thin centres, including Wemby, Chet, and ol' Pels favourite, Jaxson Hayes.

    He compares pretty well with them. One of the better shooting prospects, a good shotblocker, perhaps the most switch-ready defender, and there's a good exploration of why his rebounding numbers may be misleading given the way Perth played him (great offensive rebounder, relatively poor defensive rebounder, largely because of their scheme).

    Obviously not a Chet or Wemby level prospect, but very much on that Claxton/Mobley level of being a high impact starting centre, with some room to imagine a higher ceiling if the shooting hits.

  4. #54
    Hear me out.

    CJ + 3 1sts for Booker lol.

    Kidding. Suns will never make that trade

    -

    Here me out again

    Do what you can to get KAT

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyHornetsWhy View Post
    Hear me out.

    CJ + 3 1sts for Booker lol.

    Kidding. Suns will never make that trade

    -

    Here me out again

    Do what you can to get KAT
    Kat and Zion would work beautifully.. on offense. Sadly those are impossible trade targets lol.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by WhyHornetsWhy View Post
    Hear me out.

    CJ + 3 1sts for Booker lol.

    Kidding. Suns will never make that trade

    -

    Here me out again

    Do what you can to get KAT
    Minnesota are not moving KAT. Sadly.

    They crushed the regular season, they're crushing the playoffs right now, and KAT was just on national television after a game celebrating handing the keys to AntMan. There's zero tension on that team, they all know their roles and they have multiple elite players who do not step on each others toes. The quality of player is high and the fit is excellent. They have zero need or desire to trade anyone at the top of their roster.

  7. #57
    Then guys, hear me out again.

    Go get Dejounte Murray and put him back at his natural spot.

    Running the point

    -

    I fear their “upgrade” is Ayton and then calling that the prize of the off-season

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    CJ, absolutely.

    Far more dynamic shooter at this stage, particularly because he can make his own shot still even if he requires some other good players on the court to help give him the space to do that (space he had when Zion was playing, but didn't in the OKC series without Zion, for example) and while they both suck on defense, at least CJ has an in-between game and facilitates a little.

    Klay is the 3&D guy in some ways, and his 3 is no longer as potent as it once was and the D has fallen off a cliff. Hasn't posted a positive BPM since 3 seasons ago, REB% has gone down each of the last 3 years, TOV% has gone up each of the last 3 years, and GS was actually worse with him on court 2 of the last 3 seasons.
    I was thinking the same thing. If Klay could still play D at a high level this would be a different conversation. I like CJ for all the reasons you stated. Klay's injury derailed the trajectory of his veteran years. He could have been something like a Ray Allen in his latter years. I only asked since he's probably going to be available for cheap.

    Regarding Sarr, I love his defense, and ability to switch just about anything. Shooting needs improvement, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that he'll get there. Finishing around the rim with contact also has to get better, which will come as he grows into his frame and gets stronger.

    He's great as a prospect, I'm just not sure if he's who you want to place next to Zion right now. Also I saw some projections where he could go as high as #3.
    Last edited by Nichols; 05-01-2024 at 09:40 PM.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by WhyHornetsWhy View Post
    Then guys, hear me out again.

    Go get Dejounte Murray and put him back at his natural spot.

    Running the point

    -

    I fear their “upgrade” is Ayton and then calling that the prize of the off-season
    I think most people (maybe not most, but certainly many I've seen, including me) would like to get Murray. I think he pairs well with our main guys offensively and if he can get back to his pre-ATL form on defense, he'd be hugely helpful there as well.

    I don't think Ayton's on the move, tbh.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. If Klay could still play D at a high level this would be a different conversation. I like CJ for all the reasons you stated. Klay's injury derailed the trajectory of his veteran years. He could have been something like a Ray Allen in his latter years. I only asked since he's probably going to be available for cheap.

    Regarding Sarr, I love his defense, and ability to switch just about anything. Shooting needs improvement, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that he'll get there. Finishing around the rim with contact also has to get better, which will come as he grows into his frame and gets stronger.

    He's great as a prospect, I'm just not sure if he's who you want to place next to Zion right now. Also I saw some projections where he could go as high as #3.
    Oh there are projections where he goes #1. I'd take him #1 too, I don't see any strong candidates in this draft better. Acquiring him only happens in a scenario such as the one where BI goes to Detroit and we get a top 4 pick from that - any other situation, and he's completely ungettable in my opinion.

    Not disagreeing here, just explaining - I actually think it's pretty likely that Sarr becomes a good shooter. Compare his pre-draft season to the pre-draft seasons of Chet, Wemby, Myles Turner, Jaren Jackson Jr, Kristaps Porzingis, Joel Embiid, KAT, and Nikola Jokic and his shooting is very comparable to those guys.

    Shot a higher percentage from 3 than KAT, Embiid, Wemby, and Turner in that sample. Took more attempts than KAT, Embiid, and Turner - almost an identical attempt rate as Wemby. Better FT% than Jokic, and Embiid - almost identical to Chet. Shot better on Hooks+Floaters+PullUp2s than Embiid, Jokic, KAT, Turner, Wemby, Chet Jaren Jackson Jr, and Kristaps (those shots all are good indicators of touch, which tends to project shooting fairly well), and he took more of those shots than JJJ, Chet, Turner, and Embiid too.

    All of that to me is a really good indicator that if he gets put in a system where he's encouraged to shoot and has a good coach working with him on it consistently, he'll get there. Obviously no guarantees, but I believe in the shot.

  11. #61
    For the center position, the first target would be Nic Claxton, fortunately last season seems to have decrease his value. If he's not interested pivot to cheaper option such as Bitadze and let them battle for the spot with Matkovic and a 2024 rookie if we select another position at first, try to buy into the second round.

    Then I will try to revamp the rest of the rotation by dangling first round picks and rotational players to try to net an all star type of players.
    Last edited by Blattman; 05-02-2024 at 05:35 AM.

  12. #62
    If this team ends up with

    Dejounte Murray, Devin Booker, Trey Murphy, Zion, and Draft a Center.

    Championship

    In this case, I don't mind trading both BI and CJ.

    I'd be open to trade BI because he doesn't fit in Borrego's offense. He's too afraid to take 3's...The opposite of Trigga Trey.

    ~

    Dae, how will we do this to make this happen?
    Last edited by WhyHornetsWhy; 05-02-2024 at 03:17 AM.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by WhyHornetsWhy View Post
    If this team ends up with

    Dejounte Murray, Devin Booker, Trey Murphy, Zion, and Draft a Center.

    Championship

    In this case, I don't mind trading both BI and CJ.

    I'd be open to trade BI because he doesn't fit in Borrego's offense. He's too afraid to take 3's...The opposite of Trigga Trey.

    ~

    Dae, how will we do this to make this happen?
    We won't, I don't think.

    Suns are more likely to try and move Beal than Booker, honestly, and I don't want Beal even if he was on the move.

    Dejounte I think is gettable (and could be had by either trading the Hawks BI directly or giving them compensation and taking him into an exception as outlined in the Detroit deal I mentioned), but if you did that you wouldn't have Ingram as a trade chip anymore. So it would be trying to use CJ to pry out Booker, and that just seems impossible to me.

    And if you tried it the other way (CJ to the Hawks, BI to the Suns) I don't think the Hawks do that, and I don't think the Suns do either - Booker's just a lot better than BI, he's not much older, and once BI's new contract hits he wouldn't be any cheaper either. No real benefit for them to do that.

    Ultimately I think we end up moving either BI or CJ, probably not both.

  14. #64
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Suns are more likely to try and move Beal than Booker, honestly, and I don't want Beal even if he was on the move.
    I think they will definitely try. Not sure they will find any takers with that contract unless they pay heavily in the form of 1st round picks and/or a young player (not many to offer) to get rid of him.

  15. #65
    Rumor is Booker wants to go to the Knicks...I doubt Suns trade him preemptively but if they do, that'd be why.

    Center is the most important position defensively, because of the communication required. I can't see a world where Willie relies on a rookie to fill that position.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by ml wave View Post
    Rumor is Booker wants to go to the Knicks...I doubt Suns trade him preemptively but if they do, that'd be why.

    Center is the most important position defensively, because of the communication required. I can't see a world where Willie relies on a rookie to fill that position.
    This is true if you're playing traditional drop and hedge/recover stuff, but it can be more flexible IF the big you have can switch and do so well, and you have good help and tag set-ups, which we would have with Herb. We managed a top 10 defense three years straight with Jonas Valanciunas as our starting centre. There are a lot of things that Willie and his crew are not good at, but those guys can construct a defense that works, regardless.

    In any case, I don't suggest starting any rookies. In my dream scenario which ends up with Duren and Sarr, Duren would be starting. He'd be going into his third NBA season, aged only 20, having averaged 11.6 RPG last season and at least 17 rebounds per 100 in each of his first two years. Led the league in Defensive Rebounding %age this season. He's not a great defender, largely because Detroit contains nothing on the perimeter (at least, not whenever Thompson is off the floor) but as with Valanciunas, I do trust Willie and his coaching staff to scheme around a slightly sub-par defensive centre, and Duren is still young enough that defensive development is very possible. Especially when you consider that he was very good defensively in college.

    Sarr would be coming off the bench in this scenario, and while I fully expect him to have some rookie teething problems, I think his finishing, offensive rebounding, and perimeter defense will translate immediately, so we'd be getting different looks. That might satisfy Green's desire to see switchy 'small-ball' without having to rely on actually being small, and would help make Nance redundant. Which is good because Nance needs to go.

    I think you're able to get away with slightly less defensive communication from your big when Herb Jones exists.

  17. #67
    Beal showed he aging . Don’ t know if he is still worth it. Durant is done . Don’t waste time on that. I would love Booker. Unless we move Zion and Ingram I doubt we could get him.

  18. #68
    Any truth to the rumor Shamit said go get A.D. back if Lebron jets? Send them Ingram, CJ and 2025 pick?

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by 13 - 3 View Post
    Any truth to the rumor Shamit said go get A.D. back if Lebron jets? Send them Ingram, CJ and 2025 pick?
    The fans would revolt, at least I would.

  20. #70
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P_B_&_G View Post
    The fans would revolt, at least I would.
    He would not come back anyway.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by 13 - 3 View Post
    Any truth to the rumor Shamit said go get A.D. back if Lebron jets? Send them Ingram, CJ and 2025 pick?
    It wasn't even a rumour, he just said that if Lebron did leave he'd be interested. There was no ''I'm hearing X'' or ''Talk of Y''. Just, hey if this happens, I'd be interested in that.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN View Post
    He would not come back anyway.
    I don't think he would either and thank God lol

  23. #73
    What about Naz Reid? Hes in the first year of a 3 year extension with Minny but might be able to be pried away and would fit nicely besides Zion. You would still need a defensive/rebounding center when matchups dictate. He probably isn't reasonably available though.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by P_B_&_G View Post
    What about Naz Reid? Hes in the first year of a 3 year extension with Minny but might be able to be pried away and would fit nicely besides Zion. You would still need a defensive/rebounding center when matchups dictate. He probably isn't reasonably available though.
    That's my big contention.

    I think there are a lot of teams who might reasonably make moves, have guys available, etc.

    Minnesota are not one of those teams. They were excellent this year and they have guys locked up for the foreseeable. They have absolutely no reason to start trading out key parts of their rotation. Naz Reid was the 6th Man of the Year, earns under $15m a season, played nearly 2000 minutes this year, and is on contract for another two years. What possible reason could they have to move him? You'd have to be giving up so much that it probably wouldn't be worth the return, despite how good he is.

  25. #75
    It sure would be nice to have Josh Hart back. Then again Willie won’t play him . At least he found success in NY.

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