2024 Offseason Thread

[Nichols]

That's not obvious to you?? BI has said many times " I want someone to be hard on me, To push me to be the best I can be" But his actions say otherwise .He basically got SVG fired for doing just that. Kerr Benched him on team USA for doing just what he wanted to do. In WG's presser in the playoffs basically said " Man Up , this is the playoffs. How can you not see that he is just refusing to take 3's. UNCONTESTED 3's and dribbling closer to the defender to take a contested 2

One could deduce by inference that he may have trouble listening to his coaching staff. It wouldn't comport with the player he was in LA. He did everything he was told. Played point, and facilitated. Moved to shooting guard, then small forward, made the necessary adjustments and showed growth in those roles.

I wouldn't come to the conclusion that he's uncoachable based purely on gameplay. I'm believing what you guys are saying about what's happening off-court. It took a long time for the coaching staff to understand the best way to utilize Zion, and in some cases they're still missing the mark. Should we assume that's Zion's fault? No.. which is why I wouldn't assess whether or not a player is uncoachable based solely on gameplay. Lastly I believe he was benched by team USA because he sucked.

[djrnno]

One could deduce by inference that he may have trouble listening to his coaching staff. It wouldn't comport with the player he was in LA. He did everything he was told. Played point, and facilitated. Moved to shooting guard, then small forward, made the necessary adjustments and showed growth in those roles.

I wouldn't come to the conclusion that he's uncoachable based purely on gameplay. I'm believing what you guys are saying about what's happening off-court. It took a long time for the coaching staff to understand the best way to utilize Zion, and in some cases they're still missing the mark. Should we assume that's Zion's fault? No.. which is why I wouldn't assess whether or not a player is uncoachable based solely on gameplay. Lastly I believe he was benched by team USA because he sucked.

LA was 4yrs ago. He did great his 1st yr and with Z out most of the time he was our best option. But he seemed to start thinking it was HIS team and was always going to be his team when he was never going to be a #1 on a truly contending team. And of course it would take some time to learn how best to use Z when he was hardly on the court. It was most definitely Z's fault for not taking his conditioning or his real commitment to taking that leap seriously. It really was not until the In-season tournament embarrassment that Z finally woke up. Yeah he sucked on team USA but he also would not do what Kerr was asking him to do. He has turned into a pouty diva, although a soft spoken one , but still one neverless

[Nichols]

LA was 4yrs ago. He did great his 1st yr and with Z out most of the time he was our best option. But he seemed to start thinking it was HIS team and was always going to be his team when he was never going to be a #1 on a truly contending team. And of course it would take some time to learn how best to use Z when he was hardly on the court. It was most definitely Z's fault for not taking his conditioning or his real commitment to taking that leap seriously. It really was not until the In-season tournament embarrassment that Z finally woke up. Yeah he sucked on team USA but he also would not do what Kerr was asking him to do. He has turned into a pouty diva, although a soft spoken one , but still one neverless

I'm saying something different. Yeah, you can fault Zion for his conditioning. I'm not talking about that. I wouldn't fault him for the offense being a mess at times. More often than not, he has to create his own shots, and create shots for everyone else. That's not on him. That's on coaching. That's on a coach being lazy, and relying on talent to manufacture good looks. Zion is such a force that he can do it, but it's not ideal. Ingram, also good enough to do it, but it's not ideal. Can't count how many times a play is busted, or ineffective, and the team is looking for Zion or Ingram with 7 or 8 seconds left. That leads to highly contested shots.

[Pelicanidae]

LA was 4yrs ago. He did great his 1st yr and with Z out most of the time he was our best option. But he seemed to start thinking it was HIS team and was always going to be his team when he was never going to be a #1 on a truly contending team. And of course it would take some time to learn how best to use Z when he was hardly on the court. It was most definitely Z's fault for not taking his conditioning or his real commitment to taking that leap seriously. It really was not until the In-season tournament embarrassment that Z finally woke up. Yeah he sucked on team USA but he also would not do what Kerr was asking him to do. He has turned into a pouty diva, although a soft spoken one , but still one neverless

LA was 5 full seasons ago now, not 4.

I don't even know 100% how much of Zion's game pre-IST was even conditioning related. Obviously it was part of it, but that was also when we heard him say to the media that he was having trouble adjusting to his role because he'd been asked to take a back seat and he was struggling to do that comfortably. Yet more evidence, btw, that the coaching staff was pandering to BI and ignoring Zion - we all remember WG telling us he hadn't even come up with any Zion plays in pre-season, right? Then we hear Zion in November talking about how he had been asked to take a ''back seat'', that was his exact wording.

In any case, Zion gets a lot of shtick for being bad in the Lakers game in the IST. He deserves it - he was terrible.

But he wasn't the only one who was bad. Everyone seems to just give BI a pass for being equally as bad that game We got a media tour for a whole week about how Zion was a fat idiot for having a bad game that night, and nobody discussed that BI had 9 points and shot 4/13 from the floor that game, played no defense, and didn't rebound anything. The only starter who was good was Herb.

Obviously Zion is the bigger media name, so I understand why ESPN and First Take or whatever honed in on him, but BI has been shielded by Zion from a lot of criticism. Zion even takes the podium after games to be the team representative while BI avoids that responsibility. That man has dodged so much heat in his career, from the media and from the fanbase, because Zion has been a convenient scapegoat. Zion's had to take superstar responsibility despite the team not giving him superstar focus, while BI's had a lot of the superstar treatment and avoided the scrutiny that comes with it.

Team USA was a blessing in one respect, because it suddenly got a lot of the people outside of New Orleans realising that this guy is just not THAT guy. Without Zion to hide behind, his problems were open to see.

[ml wave]

It's quite obvious you both have strong opinions on BI . i think what you fail to take into consideration is BI's lack of willingness to alter his game 1st to fit the modern NBA. 2nd to change to fit better with Z ( taking more 3's ) 3, to conform to what WG says he wants in an offense even though WG is hypocritical at times.CJ , Herb and even Naji changed their game to fit better with Z, Why can't BI? All analytics aside it's more about BI's just wanting to do what he WANTS to do and almost refusal to alter his game that is the issue. Unless this season and especially the play-in /playoffs really humbled him into having an epiphany and some serious soul searching I don't see him changing. Rather than paying him the max ( which I'm sure he'll want to stay here ) and finding out all we have is that selfish BI that has been trending I think it's just better to move on and get the best possible trade to build around Z since his needle is moving forward

Maybe your question was rhetorical, but if you want to know why CJ changed his game it's because he's a smart, thoughtful, mature player who has 10+ years in the league and is secure enough both financially (contract extension) and emotionally to be able to adjust. If you want to know why Herb changed his game (I don't think he really changed, he's just shooting more 3s because he's shooting them better this year), it's because he doesn't want to be ignored by defenses/played off the floor. If you want to know why Naji changed his game (has he?), it's so he can stay in the league. None of those things really apply to BI...he sees himself as a star and thinks he's most effective with the ball in his hands...he also thinks that's the key to his next contract, so if you want to know why he won't change there's over 200MM reasons why.

[Pelicanidae]

Maybe your question was rhetorical, but if you want to know why CJ changed his game it's because he's a smart, thoughtful, mature player who has 10+ years in the league and is secure enough both financially (contract extension) and emotionally to be able to adjust. If you want to know why Herb changed his game (I don't think he really changed, he's just shooting more 3s because he's shooting them better this year), it's because he doesn't want to be ignored by defenses/played off the floor. If you want to know why Naji changed his game (has he?), it's so he can stay in the league. None of those things really apply to BI...he sees himself as a star and thinks he's most effective with the ball in his hands...he also thinks that's the key to his next contract, so if you want to know why he won't change there's over 200MM reasons why.

All of this can be reduced down to:

Why can CJ change his game? Because he's a smart, thoughtful, mature player who understands where he's at in his career and what he needs to do to maximise his effectiveness on the court and extend his career.

Why can Herb change his game? Because he's a smart, thoughtful, mature player who understands where he's at in his career and what he needs to do to maximise his effectiveness on the court.

Why can Naji change his game? Because he's a smart, thoughtful, mature player who understands where he's at in his career and what he needs to do to maximise his effectiveness on the court and extend his career.

Why can't BI change his game? Because he's not a smart, thoughtful, mature player who understands where he's at in his career and what he needs to do to maximise his effectiveness on court. Instead, he's got an ego that tells him ''actually no, it's everyone else that's wrong, not you''.

[DaFranchise80]

I’m starting to warm up to the idea of Trae Young for Ingram. Trae fits this roster perfectly and any offensive player that can save Willie from himself is a must add IMO.

[hornetsrebirth]

I?m starting to warm up to the idea of Trae Young for Ingram. Trae fits this roster perfectly and any offensive player that can save Willie from himself is a must add IMO.

The problem is that Trey and CJ together is a defensive nightmare.

[13 - 3]

I’m starting to warm up to the idea of Trae Young for Ingram. Trae fits this roster perfectly and any offensive player that can save Willie from himself is a must add IMO.

We going to have to make our move before Miami makes its move for him

[P_B_&_G]

The problem is that Trey and CJ together is a defensive nightmare.

Almost every possession in the half court against OKC they forced a switch to attack CJ and it resulted in numerous straight drives to the rim and easy buckets. Trea would allow them to not even bother forcing a switch and just attack either guard. They would probably score 130 a game.

If we could somehow add a decent rim protector it may be a little better but I don't think any of those are available.

[13 - 3]

CJ probably not going anywhere. The man is a philanthropist. Gayle loves that.

[Pelicanidae]

The problem is that Trey and CJ together is a defensive nightmare.

I feel like most people who support a move for Trae are also supportive of trying to move CJ during the season as well. Certainly, it would involve moving CJ to the bench while he was still here, to minimise some of that.

Of course, that brings up the question as to whether CJ would sacrifice that much. Personally, I feel like he might, but I don't know him well enough to say for sure.

[Pelicanidae]

Almost every possession in the half court against OKC they forced a switch to attack CJ and it resulted in numerous straight drives to the rim and easy buckets. Trea would allow them to not even bother forcing a switch and just attack either guard. They would probably score 130 a game.

If we could somehow add a decent rim protector it may be a little better but I don't think any of those are available.

What's funny is that they picked their matchups, forced them, and still averaged an ORtg 10 points worse than their regular season results. As easy as the buckets you thought they got in that series might have been, they were worse than they got all year. Turns out they're actually just a fantastic offense (should anyone be surprised the 3rd best offensive in the league managed to score on the 6th best defense?).

The problem wasn't our defense, which even with CJ held them in check just fine. The problem was that we couldn't score back at all. We averaged 89.5 points per game in that series. Worst playoff offense in at least 8 years. Hellishly bad.

[P_B_&_G]

What's funny is that they picked their matchups, forced them, and still averaged an ORtg 10 points worse than their regular season results. As easy as the buckets you thought they got in that series might have been, they were worse than they got all year. Turns out they're actually just a fantastic offense (should anyone be surprised the 3rd best offensive in the league managed to score on the 6th best defense?).

The problem wasn't our defense, which even with CJ held them in check just fine. The problem was that we couldn't score back at all. We averaged 89.5 points per game in that series. Worst playoff offense in at least 8 years. Hellishly bad.

It's definitely an interesting thought exercise on if Young would move the needle in place of BI. We would likely score a little more but they would also likely do the same. So in the end it would be the same result but with slightly better offense and slightly worse defense for both teams.

Edited to add: Unless Trae could unlock other players by being a factor. Trickle down offense and all...

[13 - 3]

Suns fired Vogel . Just fyi

[Pelicanidae]

It's definitely an interesting thought exercise on if Young would move the needle in place of BI. We would likely score a little more but they would also likely do the same. So in the end it would be the same result but with slightly better offense and slightly worse defense for both teams.

Edited to add: Unless Trae could unlock other players by being a factor. Trickle down offense and all...

Which is about 75% of the entire argument for Trae, mentioned multiple times.

The fact that he is a willing, capable, and voluminous pullup shooter at the point of the screen is hugely impactful for the rest of the team.

Makes things easier on everyone else any time a PnR gets run, and because he's an actual PG, Trae runs actual PnR actions. That's something BI rarely does.

Just that alone would make things much easier.

Would they score more? Maybe, but given that they were already scoring ten points worse than their regular season record, even if they score more all that means is that they're closer to their regular season selves. Meanwhile, our offense would be supercharged.

Thus far, WG has prided himself on being able to put out a competent defense no matter who is on the court. As much as some people hate to give him props for things, thus far he's been right - we have had a good defense, almost regardless of the personnel. We've had successful defensive units containing multiple players we consider to be mediocre-to-poor defenders, and part of that is that we had good shooting variance this season but part of it is that Green has actually proven himself capable as a defensive coach.

The area we desperately need help is the offense. Am I willing to take a 10% dip in our defense in exchange for a 30% boost to the offense? Absolutely I am. No question about it.

[markid]

Suns fired Vogel . Just fyi

That's wild
That's first year of a 5 year contract
That's Booker's 7th coach in 10 years now.

[Nichols]

Tyus Jones, James Harden, D'Angelo Russell, Markelle Fultz, and Reggie Jackson are 1's that could be options.

[Nichols]

Almost every possession in the half court against OKC they forced a switch to attack CJ and it resulted in numerous straight drives to the rim and easy buckets. Trea would allow them to not even bother forcing a switch and just attack either guard. They would probably score 130 a game.

If we could somehow add a decent rim protector it may be a little better but I don't think any of those are available.

Which is why I said it could possibly work because of fit. But, his lack of defense could mitigate any positives on offense. And if his three isn't falling, there's the 43% from the field.

[djrnno]

Which is why I said it could possibly work because of fit. But, his lack of defense could mitigate any positives on offense. And if his three isn't falling, there's the 43% from the field.

Well if we could get CJ to come of the bench and do Trae, Herb,Trey, Z and a rim protector then the D would not suffer, Scoring would likely go up, better fit. CJ would make the 2nd line better.

[Nichols]

Well if we could get CJ to come of the bench and do Trae, Herb,Trey, Z and a rim protector then the D would not suffer, Scoring would likely go up, better fit. CJ would make the 2nd line better.

Does this team move the needle?

[djrnno]

Does this team move the needle?

If we get the same BI as we got this yr I think it does. You'd rather sign BI to a max and strap the team cap wise to a player that had maybe his worst yr ever? It also removes BI from the WG effect, meaning he can't baby and placate to a pouty " I wanna do what I wanna do " BI because he's not here( see Moneyball) . Griffin needs to save WG from WG or just fire him , which is my preference. As far as my 5 moving the needle, Z, and Trey's defense seems to be on the rise. Herb's offense is also on the rise. A lot would depend on who the 5 is.

[Nichols]

If we get the same BI as we got this yr I think it does. You'd rather sign BI to a max and strap the team cap wise to a player that had maybe his worst yr ever? It also removes BI from the WG effect, meaning he can't baby and placate to a pouty " I wanna do what I wanna do " BI because he's not here( see Moneyball) . Griffin needs to save WG from WG or just fire him , which is my preference. As far as my 5 moving the needle, Z, and Trey's defense seems to be on the rise. Herb's offense is also on the rise. A lot would depend on who the 5 is.

Your rebut presupposes we stand pat with Ingram. I don't think anyone on earth is proposing that.

I personally don't like guards that have a high turnover ratio. I also don't like when they have a low FG%. Couple that with really bad defense. It's why I've never been a fan of Westbrook. A saving grace for Trae is he shoots a ton of 3's, and he's solid in that area.

[hornetsrebirth]

It's possible Ingram could be on the team next year. It's not possible that he is getting signed to a max. Let's stop talking about that now like it's a real thing.

[Pelicanidae]

Brandon Ingram is expected to be the Pelican most likely to be traded this offseason, per @MikeAScotto

“Pelicans forward Brandon Ingram is considered the most likely player to be traded by rival executives who spoke with HoopsHype. Those executives believe the fit with Ingram… pic.twitter.com/Kxbb1AdhvS

— NBACentral (@TheDunkCentral) May 10, 2024