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Thread: What kind of players does this team need to take it to the next level next season?

  1. #76
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    I like the offense being generated by BI and Zion as primary ball handlers rather than CJ. Which is actually why I dont think we need a PG because I prefer them to be the creators. And CJ is great at catch and shoot situations (when not hampered by multiple serious injuries). However to say is only a catch and shoot guy is simply untrue. He is the only guy on the team not named Zion or Ingram that can actually create off the dribble.

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    I like the offense being generated by BI and Zion as primary ball handlers rather than CJ. Which is actually why I dont think we need a PG because I prefer them to be the creators. And CJ is great at catch and shoot situations (when not hampered by multiple serious injuries). However to say is only a catch and shoot guy is simply untrue. He is the only guy on the team not named Zion or Ingram that can actually create off the dribble.
    Which isn't saying much, I'm afraid.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Can't use that argument on me, I'm fine with the stars sitting out when they're injured
    That is true, youre fine with stars sitting out post season elimination games even when they are not injured at all. I guess you are just more evolved than the rest of us.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by djrnno View Post
    He did not have a significant injury or else he would not have played.
    Word. Probably just having surgery on his shooting hand next week for fun right?

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    I like the offense being generated by BI and Zion as primary ball handlers rather than CJ. Which is actually why I dont think we need a PG because I prefer them to be the creators. And CJ is great at catch and shoot situations (when not hampered by multiple serious injuries). However to say is only a catch and shoot guy is simply untrue. He is the only guy on the team not named Zion or Ingram that can actually create off the dribble.
    The issue I have with this is that it's not entirely true, and it became visibly less true as the year went on and both Herb and Trey improved massively as self-creators and creators for others (particularly Herb, who I think was a very fine auxiliary ballhandler by the end of the year) and despite CJ racking up more and more injuries as that time went on, he didn't take the opportunity to cede any of that ballhandling to them.

    You would think he would. It makes sense to me, at least: they're getting better at it, while I'm getting increasingly more damaged and subsequently, worse - makes sense to hand off some of the responsibilities to them.

    Not to CJ, apparently.
    Basketball.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    The issue I have with this is that it's not entirely true, and it became visibly less true as the year went on and both Herb and Trey improved massively as self-creators and creators for others (particularly Herb, who I think was a very fine auxiliary ballhandler by the end of the year) and despite CJ racking up more and more injuries as that time went on, he didn't take the opportunity to cede any of that ballhandling to them.

    You would think he would. It makes sense to me, at least: they're getting better at it, while I'm getting increasingly more damaged and subsequently, worse - makes sense to hand off some of the responsibilities to them.

    Not to CJ, apparently.
    I tend to agree. Plus Herb's 3pt shooting was really coming on the last month of the season along with him getting to the basket.TM3 was also getting much better at driving.CJ's problem was yeah he had a hand injury but it seemed like he did not think he did and continued to play ISO ball to the detriment of the team. That shows selfish play to me

  7. #82
    A center that is not a klutz with the ball, A true point guard and some 3pt shooters

  8. #83
    1) Trade Zion. The Nets seem like a good target as @TDCreator mentioned (for Mikal and Claxton).

    Another option, if it can be pulled off, would be to send Zion + Jonas (or Hayes or Richardson) to Cleveland for Darius Garland + Jarrett Allen.

    The Cavs might be tempted into doing this trade to form a trio of Donovan, Mobley and Zion. The Pelicans need to be smart and not talk themselves out of giving the Cavs that trio... since they should know better than most that Zion can not be counted on. Take Garland and Allen, run, then heave a big sigh of relief like if a 300LB weight was lifted off your back.

    2) Draft Cason Wallace if he falls. I have not followed this past college season closely, so there could be other better prospects. The reason I bring up Cason is he looks very good defensively, which would be needed with Garland and CJ not being defensive stalwarts. He could be paired alongside either of them, when the situation requires it.

    3) Have Herb, Dyson and Cason practice a lot of three point shots. Perhaps, BI too.

    4) Get a better head coach... one of Frank Vogel, Nick Nurse or Kenny Atkinson.

    1-5: Garland, Trey, BI, Herb, Allen.
    6-10: Cason, CJ, Dyson, Nance, Hayes.

    + GTA, ??, ??, ??, ??
    Last edited by LAL1947; 04-14-2023 at 10:30 AM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    The issue I have with this is that it's not entirely true, and it became visibly less true as the year went on and both Herb and Trey improved massively as self-creators and creators for others (particularly Herb, who I think was a very fine auxiliary ballhandler by the end of the year) and despite CJ racking up more and more injuries as that time went on, he didn't take the opportunity to cede any of that ballhandling to them.

    You would think he would. It makes sense to me, at least: they're getting better at it, while I'm getting increasingly more damaged and subsequently, worse - makes sense to hand off some of the responsibilities to them.

    Not to CJ, apparently.
    Except it is true. Neither Herb nor Trey are good at creating for themselves (yet). They can make something happen when they get the ball before a defender is set. But against a defender who is set, in a 1 on 1 situation, neither Herb nor Trey are particularly good at creating a shot for themselves.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    Except it is true. Neither Herb nor Trey are good at creating for themselves (yet). They can make something happen when they get the ball before a defender is set. But against a defender who is set, in a 1 on 1 situation, neither Herb nor Trey are particularly good at creating a shot for themselves.
    The problem is assuming our baseline should be based around 1v1 sets, which it shouldn't.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    The problem is assuming our baseline should be based around 1v1 sets, which it shouldn't.
    I did not assume that. In an ideal world the offense can create for guys so they dont have to beat a set defender 1 on 1. But the ideal thing does not happen every possession. That is when you need players who can beat their man off the dribble and get a bucket. That is what BI, Zion and yes CJ, are capable of doing.

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    I did not assume that. In an ideal world the offense can create for guys so they dont have to beat a set defender 1 on 1. But the ideal thing does not happen every possession. That is when you need players who can beat their man off the dribble and get a bucket. That is what BI, Zion and yes CJ, are capable of doing.
    And nobody is denying that CJ is good at getting his own shot. At no point, actually, has anyone denied that - at least not that I can remember. It's a bit odd you pivot to arguing that CJ can create his shot, as if that's the point, when the real argument is whether or not CJ self-creating on an endless loop is actually the best option for the team offense.

    In an ideal world the offense can create for guys so they don't have to beat set defenders 1v1, sure, I agree with that.

    So what happens when there is an opportunity for that to happen, and CJ passes it up in order to try and string together some dribble moves and take a contest midranger? That's the issue, and it happened multiple times every game.

    I still remember him missing a wide-open Trey cutting for a dunk in transition in favour of grinding things into a half-court set so that he could go 1v1 with a defender. Or that time, I think it was in the final Wolves game (not certain on that) where he went for a turnaround fadeaway baseline 12 footer with a defender in his face instead of making a fairly routine skip pass to a wide open Trey in the corner.

    No one really minds BI being primary ball handler despite the fact that he's score first because most of the time if there's a completely wide open shot like that, he'll make the pass. Not always, and he does get critique when he misses it, but most of the time if it's there, he sees it and makes that pass. CJ does not. He's not pass first, he's not pass second, and there's serious critical debate on whether he's pass third or fourth in most games.

    And this is why people prefer other players to have the ball in their hands. Can Trey break down a defender? Honestly, yes sometimes, but no, not as often or as consistently as CJ. But if he can't shake his defender, I can trust him to pass to someone else. I can't trust CJ to do that. So I'd rather have Trey making the decision, in many cases.

    Edit: note, this is referring to torn-ligament and torn-labrum CJ that we actually had this year, not CJ when he's perfectly healthy and actually hitting those shots more consistently.

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    It?s hard to know what we need because we don?t know what we have.
    There's no need to overthink this. We lost the final season game to the Wolves because we shot something like 3-20 from 3 pt range. We've lost plenty of games in that same fashion.

    I forgot what the stat is but we ranked near the bottom of the league in defending the paint. Teams like the Jazz and Cavs BULLIED us down low and will continue to do so until we address our front court.

    We need shooting and rim protection, with or without a healthy Zion. The main acquisitions should be: a starting Center that fits our team better. Naji/J Rich minutes need to go to an actual shooter (trade up for Gradey Dick for all I care). Jax/Billy need to be replaced with a defensive minded big who can also grab rebounds. Dereck Lively would be a great back up 5 for us. He would immediately be our best rim protector. That's just a start.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    And nobody is denying that CJ is good at getting his own shot. At no point, actually, has anyone denied that - at least not that I can remember. It's a bit odd you pivot to arguing that CJ can create his shot, as if that's the point, when the real argument is whether or not CJ self-creating on an endless loop is actually the best option for the team offense.
    What literally nobody is saying, is that CJ self-creating in an endless loop is actually the best option for the team offense. You could not find one single person saying that. But I can find several people saying that he is a catch and shoot player. Catch and shoot players are guys who dont create opportunities off the dribble. That is not CJ, calling him a catch and shoot guy is a misunderstanding of his game.

    I agree he would have been better if he looked to pass more instead of scoring first given the state that he was in this year. It?s probably easier said than done for a guy to change his instincts and habits suddenly in response to injuries. CJ is a scorer first, that is who he is. That is why I want him to come off the bench because it gives him room to be a scorer and do damage without taking away opportunities from other guys that need them.

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    What literally nobody is saying, is that CJ self-creating in an endless loop is actually the best option for the team offense. You could not find one single person saying that. But I can find several people saying that he is a catch and shoot player. Catch and shoot players are guys who dont create opportunities off the dribble. That is not CJ, calling him a catch and shoot guy is a misunderstanding of his game.

    I agree he would have been better if he looked to pass more instead of scoring first given the state that he was in this year. It?s probably easier said than done for a guy to change his instincts and habits suddenly in response to injuries. CJ is a scorer first, that is who he is. That is why I want him to come off the bench because it gives him room to be a scorer and do damage without taking away opportunities from other guys that need them.
    Well then why argue with me about it, since I'm not the one saying he should be catch and shoot only. I'm the one saying his offensive ability clearly suffered and it would have helped the team far more for him to defer than to keep trying to play his usual game, that's not the same as C&S and it's lineup dependent, so why not argue with those people?

  16. #91
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    I feel like some people didn’t watch CJ play this year, but have a strong opinion on his game. The dude was bad this year in so many ways. Number one is the way he acted towards his teammates on the court. When you blatantly ignore wide open shooters all year, it kills the teams confidence. The way he played this year did nothing to help his young teammates. He is a ball stopping, defensive cone, with little to no Iq. All he can do is talk nice just like Griff.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by djrnno View Post
    I tend to agree. Plus Herb's 3pt shooting was really coming on the last month of the season along with him getting to the basket.TM3 was also getting much better at driving.CJ's problem was yeah he had a hand injury but it seemed like he did not think he did and continued to play ISO ball to the detriment of the team. That shows selfish play to me
    The faster they get rid of him, the better they will be.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Fedupfan View Post
    I feel like some people didn’t watch CJ play this year, but have a strong opinion on his game. The dude was bad this year in so many ways. Number one is the way he acted towards his teammates on the court. When you blatantly ignore wide open shooters all year, it kills the teams confidence. The way he played this year did nothing to help his young teammates. He is a ball stopping, defensive cone, with little to no Iq. All he can do is talk nice just like Griff.
    ...not to mention that he is a defensive turnstile. In fact, I'll go so far as say the most 'offensive' thing about his game is his defense. (See: Josh Giddey in his two 'play-in' games and get back to me)

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedupfan View Post
    I feel like some people didn?t watch CJ play this year, but have a strong opinion on his game. The dude was bad this year in so many ways. Number one is the way he acted towards his teammates on the court. When you blatantly ignore wide open shooters all year, it kills the teams confidence. The way he played this year did nothing to help his young teammates. He is a ball stopping, defensive cone, with little to no Iq. All he can do is talk nice just like Griff.
    Well if you are talking about me, you can go ahead and look through all the different game threads and find out that I was watching. And you will find plenty of criticism about CJ as well coming from me. What I cant stand for is the fanbase making him a scapegoat. you all are completely underestimating how badly we needed him. BI missed so many games, Zion missed so many games. If you think this team would have been better off without CJ you are straight up delusional. He did so much for us, despite being injured and battling through the most difficult season of his career. The people think this team is better off without CJ shows how ignorant people can be. He will be the first one to tell you that he had A down year but did the best he could with injuries and a radically changing roster that hat shifted the burden. He is a very good NBA player and an excellent team leader.
    Last edited by hornetsrebirth; 04-15-2023 at 11:00 AM.

  20. #95
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    Not just you. Plenty people. A lot of people still think Portland CJ is here.

  21. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    Well if you are talking about me, you can go ahead and look through all the different game threads and find out that I was watching. And you will find plenty of criticism about CJ as well coming from me. What I cant stand for is the fanbase making him a scapegoat. you all are completely underestimating how badly we needed him. BI missed so many games, Zion missed so many games. If you think this team would have been better off without CJ you are straight up delusional. He did so much for us, despite being injured and battling through the most difficult season of his career. The people think this team is better off without CJ shows how ignorant people can be. He will be the first one to tell you that he had A down year but did the best he could with injuries and a radically changing roster that hat shifted the burden. He is a very good NBA player and an excellent team leader.
    He's a role player who was little more than a salary dump at the trade deadline in '22 for Portland. If he was the player you want him to be, he (and a career DNP-Injured player) could have never been gotten out of Portland for JHart, NAW, Satoransky, DiDi and a a couple of #2's. To make matters worse, the Pelicans threw an additional $64,000,000 at him for two additional years to compound their error. So he's ours for the next three years (ages 32,33,34) for a cool 33MM per (avg,). All-star money for an aging role player? Pul-eease!!!

    Candidly, I believe this team would have been a lot better off with a younger JHart and NAW than 'The Defensive Turnstile" and "Perennially-injured LNJ".
    Last edited by As I See It; 04-15-2023 at 05:28 PM.

  22. #97
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    That’s the issue. We have fans that think a 33 year old role player is the savior of the team. It just shows how little success we are accustomed to. A guy that played as bad as he did, is lauded for playing through an injury that actually hurt the team. If he can’t shoot, he is absolutely useless. His defense, as mentioned many times before, is so bad that it causes the entire team to be scrambling on most of the possessions. He is not even close to the reason they had any success. He was part of the 10 game losing streak.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedupfan View Post
    That?s the issue. We have fans that think a 33 year old role player is the savior of the team. It just shows how little success we are accustomed to. A guy that played as bad as he did, is lauded for playing through an injury that actually hurt the team. If he can?t shoot, he is absolutely useless. His defense, as mentioned many times before, is so bad that it causes the entire team to be scrambling on most of the possessions. He is not even close to the reason they had any success. He was part of the 10 game losing streak.
    Who are you talking about? It cant be CJ he is 31 years old and he LITERALLY did save the season for the Pelicans, we were scraping the bottom of the barrel for worst team in the league before he came here and then we went to the playoffs because everything turned around after we traded for him.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth View Post
    Who are you talking about? It cant be CJ he is 31 years old and he LITERALLY did save the season for the Pelicans, we were scraping the bottom of the barrel for worst team in the league before he came here and then we went to the playoffs because everything turned around after we traded for him.
    CJ = 31/9/10 for 20 year old Josh Giddey (a career best) in a "do-or-die" game. Meanwhile CJ shot a miserable 33%. Yeah, "he LITERALLY did save the season for the Pelicans". LMAO

    Note: This is pretty much what we saw all season from CJ...a human turnstile!!

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by As I See It View Post
    CJ = 31/9/10 for 20 year old Josh Giddey (a career best) in a "do-or-die" game. Meanwhile CJ shot a miserable 33%. Yeah, "he LITERALLY did save the season for the Pelicans". LMAO

    Note: This is pretty much what we saw all season from CJ...a human turnstile!!
    I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about the 2022 season but I should know better than to assume any level of intelligence or comprehension from some people on this board. Yeah CJ had some poor shooting this year due to serious injuries to his shooting hand and shoulder. It has been well documented and you are belaboring the point. And you are managing to prove my point about how you make him a scapegoat for the entire team’s problems. Someone had a good game therefore it must be all CJs fault. LMAO what a tool you are.
    Last edited by hornetsrebirth; 04-16-2023 at 08:44 AM.

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