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Thread: SVG gets it - great article by David Fisher on TBW

  1. #1

    SVG gets it - great article by David Fisher on TBW

    As I am sure most of you have been thinking since the bubble, The Pels really need to address the center position and ideally sign/draft a great 3&D lockdown sniper. Adams is a GREAT pickup IMO, doing great work beyond what stats reveal to address the former. And, unfortunately, the latter is something that is in high demand on almost every team in the league.

    Having watched Lonzo since he was drafted in LA, I always assumed he would always ONLY see himself as a PG, which poses obvious problems. But the article on The Bird Writes by David Fisher quotes a July podcast with SVG, and it gives me hope that maybe SVG can get Lonzo to buy-in to what SVG himself thankfully has noticed:

    "At 6'6", with his ability to defend, he passes the ball and he's making the three. I think sometimes we can get too focused on what guys can't do. He's got a nice package of skills. And as you (Zach Lowe) mentioned they've got other ball handling pieces. He doesn't need to facilitate everything in the half court. If everything goes right and you can run your half court offense through Zion Williamson, Brandon Ingram, and Jrue Holiday with some catch and shoot and movement stuff for JJ Redick. In the half court, what's the problem if Lonzo Ball becomes mainly just a standstill shooter?

    That's what you do as a coach. You look to people's strengths and you put it together. We've been reading about with Philly, Ben Simmons playing more as a traditional four. I sort of think Ben Simmons as the point guard in transition. Let's go ahead and outlet to him or he's such a great rebounder, like Lonzo Ball is, take it off the glass and go ahead and be our point guard in transition. And then, in the half court, fine then we'll use Ben Simmons as the screener in pick and roll. I think there's going to be more and more guys in the league like that who are hybrid-type guys. That in transition they're going to play one position and in the half court they're going to have another role. And I think that's where Lonzo Ball fits for these guys."


    As the article says, Lonzo shot 38.9% behind the arc on 262 catch and shoot attempts last season illustrating his strengths, while his weaknesses are revealed in his shooting 33.9% on 359 drives with 47 assists against 46 turnovers.

    Perhaps we have the excellent 3&D wing we have been looking for all along, if Lonzo can get past the idea that he is a PG and maybe put on a little bit more upper body muscle...
    Last edited by SoCal4Pels; 11-24-2020 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Cool find.
    PSA: Not a single elite poster or pels "insider" predicted the Cousins trade, Jrue to the Bucks, or the Adams trade. They didn't know about the Adams extension before Woj and Shams reported it and no one connected us to Kira Lewis in the draft.

    Because there ARE no elite posters/insiders. We're all equals in Pels Fandom.

    "There is only so much film an amateur can watch before they begin to think they know more than they do."

    - Abraham Lincoln

  3. #3
    I was listening to The Bird Calls podcast last night and thinking of something similar for Lonzo. Since the majority of thinks he's terrible at running the half court offense why not let us use Bledsoe run the offense and let us try something new with Lonzo as you said. However I wonder how long it would it take lonzo to adjust. (Or if he even needs to) It's like for me, most games I've seen we've never had too much of an issue scoring (of course there has been some when we looked abysmal).

    EDIT: and of course let's not forget there were certain points of the game where the offense looked confused and stuck in mud. But one thing the podcast noticed, was that Bledsoe is better at pull up 3's and horrendous at catch a shoot 3's. So that's something to take note of as well. Along with Lonzo's catch and shoot 3's.
    Last edited by hornetzplaya; 11-24-2020 at 09:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels View Post
    As I am sure most of you have been thinking....
    Yeah this is old news around here. Frankly, I think Lonzo has no choice. He is just bad at point guard things other than full court passes and lobs. No surprise they drafted a young PG that is already talking about things like "paint gravity."

    One thing to like about Jrue Holiday, was he went through the same thing. He was just way too slow in decision making and attacking the paint as a lead guard. So he moved off ball where he is a much better fit. Lonzo has to follow suit.

  5. #5
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    I hope he says, he will play whatever position they want him to play.

  6. #6
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
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    This is exactly what I was saying for Lonzo! So glad SVG is on this page with him. The kid has so Sammy skills and they need to be used. We have Ingram, Zion, and whoever we run at PG to handle the ball on the court with Lonzo that was he’s not having to create every opportunity for the offense like Steve Nash. Again I envision him taking Jrues role from last year but being more of a spot up shooter instead of relying on him as a scorer. Lonzo as SG “combo guard” will likely be top 3 in steals, rebounds, and assists while averaging 15 ppg.. If he is used the right way and limiting his weaknesses that I’m sure he’s worked on the kid can be a near all star caliber player. After reading this I can’t wait to see what SVG has planned for him.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    This is exactly what I was saying for Lonzo! So glad SVG is on this page with him. The kid has so Sammy skills and they need to be used. We have Ingram, Zion, and whoever we run at PG to handle the ball on the court with Lonzo that was he’s not having to create every opportunity for the offense like Steve Nash. Again I envision him taking Jrues role from last year but being more of a spot up shooter instead of relying on him as a scorer. Lonzo as SG “combo guard” will likely be top 3 in steals, rebounds, and assists while averaging 15 ppg.. If he is used the right way and limiting his weaknesses that I’m sure he’s worked on the kid can be a near all star caliber player. After reading this I can’t wait to see what SVG has planned for him.
    A combo guard still needs to be able to drive with confidence. Driving is like Lonzo's 5th option when he has the ball

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Yeah this is old news around here. Frankly, I think Lonzo has no choice. He is just bad at point guard things other than full court passes and lobs. No surprise they drafted a young PG that is already talking about things like "paint gravity."

    One thing to like about Jrue Holiday, was he went through the same thing. He was just way too slow in decision making and attacking the paint as a lead guard. So he moved off ball where he is a much better fit. Lonzo has to follow suit.
    Yep, people have been saying on this board for what must be at least 10 months or so (probably more) that you cannot look at Lonzo as a Point Guard in the halfcourt, it's just not feasible. He doesn't have the skills required to do it, and it's not like it's a small skill gap either: he's just flat out incapable of doing several very important things at an NBA level. He can do the ''point guard'' role in transition, if he's the guy who gets the rebound: anyone can do that, really, Ingram can do it, Zion can do it, Adams can make great full-court passes, someone like Kira or Hart can do it as well. The issue is always the half-court.

    When it comes to that half-court role, Lonzo must be thought of as a wing, not a primary initiator. There will never be a high calibre NBA offense with Lonzo as the lead half-court initiator. Let him spot up, try and work on his cutting off-ball, and let his high level passing allow him to play a connecting role that exploits advantages, but don't ask him to create or drive or run the PnR. Glad to see that it's becoming commonly accepted in the discussions about him.
    Cade Cunningham/Usman Garuba/Scottie Barnes/Moses Moody/Brandon Boston Jr endorser.

    Eye test people: analytics people watch more basketball than you do.

  9. #9
    This has been an observed weakness for those watching Lonzo long before he was even a Pelican; my personal excitement was twofold: that SVG had already recognized, prior to becoming the new coach, that Lonzo could be utilized in a different way, and with that, the potential that he could possibly help Lonzo to overcome the identity he has grasped onto and what he has been told for so long: that he is a potential superstar PG. The latter is a larger mental hurdle than I think many may realize who have only been watching him since he has been a Pelican, as his insane, essentially emotionally abusive father has beaten it into his skull for a good amount of his life that being a PG is his identity, so it is by no means a given that Lonzo will be open so seeing himself in a new light. There is definitely a certain 'prestige' that comes with being seen as a floor general as opposed to a spot-up wing. But I am hopeful SVG (and Redick!) can show him the way!
    Last edited by SoCal4Pels; 11-25-2020 at 02:22 AM.

  10. #10
    I remember Griff saying he sees Ingram as a SG offensively, I honestly think instead of a SG who has to drive, Lonzo will play a lot of 3 and D and spread the court and let Ingram, Zion, Bledsoe and Kira do their own thing creating.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by HornetGuru View Post
    I remember Griff saying he sees Ingram as a SG offensively, I honestly think instead of a SG who has to drive, Lonzo will play a lot of 3 and D and spread the court and let Ingram, Zion, Bledsoe and Kira do their own thing creating.
    Offensively, there's little difference between what a shooting guard and a small forward are asked to do. Both need shooting range, be able to cut/drive and playmake. TBH, 1-3 are pretty similar

    It's defensively where skill sets really come into play
    Last edited by AusPel; 11-25-2020 at 03:24 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by AusPel View Post
    Offensively, there's little difference between what a shooting guard and a small forward are asked to do. Both need shooting range, be able to cut/drive and playmake.

    It's defensively where skill sets really come into play
    SG or SF, whatever you wanna call it, I think Ingram will handle the ball more than Lonzo, which I’m in favor of.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by AusPel View Post
    A combo guard still needs to be able to drive with confidence. Driving is like Lonzo's 5th option when he has the ball
    Nail and head. I’ve screamed at the tv I n countless occasions about this. Zo was unbelievable when driving the rim at UCLA. Somehow between college and the pros he lost confidence in that. He too quick and athletic to abandon that part of his game. Plus, he can dish it if he finds himself in the trees to a
    Cutting Zion.

    This I one area I hope SVG pounds into his head.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HornetGuru View Post
    SG or SF, whatever you wanna call it, I think Ingram will handle the ball more than Lonzo, which I’m in favor of.
    In the halfcourt, Lonzo should be the 4th option when it comes to ballhandling in most lineups. After whoever is at point (Bledsoe, Kira), Zion, and Ingram. Just ahead of whoever is at C.

  15. #15
    Dont know if anyone watched the latest Shannon "Lebron's BFF" Sharp podcast but Lavar is on it.

    Lavar doesn't think Lonzo can transition to playing a 2 guard, but he thinks Lamelo can and should. Thinks Lamelo is more of a scorer than Lonzo.

    Also sounds like he's ready for Lonzo to be a free agent next year so he can go join Lamelo in Charlotte. Nevermind Charlotte already has a bunch of young promising guards on that team. But I'm all for that.

    The man did a crappy job teaching his sons basketball....but he loves his sons tho.
    Last edited by luckyman; 11-25-2020 at 09:39 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Dont know if anyone watched the latest Shannon "Lebron's BFF" Sharp podcast but Lavar is on it.

    Lavar doesn't think Lonzo can transition to playing a 2 guard, but he thinks Lamelo can and should. Thinks Lamelo is more of a scorer than Lonzo.

    Also sounds like he's ready for Lonzo to be a free agent next year so he can go join Lamelo in Charlotte. Nevermind Charlotte already has a bunch of young promising guards on that team.

    The man did a crappy job teaching his sons basketball....but he loves his sons tho.
    It's funny because neither LaMelo or Lonzo are best suited to being high volume primary scorers, it's just not what they're good at. But of the two, LaMelo is definitely the one who should be on-ball more: he's simply the better passer, including in more on-ball capacities like the PnR. It's quite funny that Lavar says Lonzo can't transition off ball, when LaMelo should, when that seems to be the precise opposite of what each of them is best suited to.

  17. #17
    Lonzo already had that stint where he openly distanced himself from LaVar. Doesn't seem like he'd be the best source for prognostication.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    In the halfcourt, Lonzo should be the 4th option when it comes to ballhandling in most lineups. After whoever is at point (Bledsoe, Kira), Zion, and Ingram. Just ahead of whoever is at C.
    My thoughts exactly

  19. #19
    Lonzo pretty much just needs to become a sniper. He needs to keep his 3p% above 37-38% and if he does that while also taking 6 a game, he can continue to start in the NBA.

    I too agree that he?s not a lead guard PG, but with his height he can definitely play the 2 in the league defensively and switch to defending PGs when it?s necessary. He has to relish that that?s his shtick though if he wants to bring admiration to his game.

    In year 4, Senior season - 3 generations of younger guys in the league now - Lonzo - if his style remains the same - needs to be a man out there now and start chasing plays. It feels like he played on his heels (a reactor to action) when it?s time he starts being the one creating action and just playing like someone who knows they?re an upperclassmen now.

    I am rooting for the guy.

  20. #20
    Some team is going to overpay for him next year, i just hope it won't be us... he is a good role player but i wouldn't break the bank to keep him...

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PaKwAn View Post
    Some team is going to overpay for him next year, i just hope it won't be us... he is a good role player but i wouldn't break the bank to keep him...
    This is why I've been so in favour of trading him. It's not because I don't think there's a way for him to be a good player - I do, as a 3&D roleplayer, where I think he can be potentially quite effective - but because I know that there's a history of bad teams throwing money at top 3 picks who hit the market, especially if they have name value, and either we'll have to match that money (which a 3&D roleplayer will not deserve unless they're literally one of the best of all time at that) or lose him for nothing.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Lavar doesn't think Lonzo can transition to playing a 2 guard, but he thinks Lamelo can and should. Thinks Lamelo is more of a scorer than Lonzo.
    This is great news; Lavar has always been wrong about literally everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by PaKwAn View Post
    Some team is going to overpay for him next year, i just hope it won't be us... he is a good role player but i wouldn't break the bank to keep him...
    This has kind of been my thought process, but I am starting to think that when it comes time for GMs to actually open their pocketbooks, they will have enough years of evidence to decide to pay for what he is and not for some illusion (unless you are Charlotte after that Hawyward signing).

    However, if he maintains or improves in his catch & shoot 3p % while maintaining his rebounding and focuses on locking up opposing PGs, though this may qualify him as a 'roleplayer', this type of player is in huge demand on almost every team and he may get paid regardless.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    It's funny because neither LaMelo or Lonzo are best suited to being high volume primary scorers, it's just not what they're good at. But of the two, LaMelo is definitely the one who should be on-ball more: he's simply the better passer, including in more on-ball capacities like the PnR. It's quite funny that Lavar says Lonzo can't transition off ball, when LaMelo should, when that seems to be the precise opposite of what each of them is best suited to.
    His handle is lightyears ahead of Lonzo.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by bogiesfedora View Post
    His handle is lightyears ahead of Lonzo.
    Absolutely. There was a ton of talk about his handle prior to the draft, and while I think it's a bit overstated (while technically advanced, I don't think he actually creates much functional advantage with it: tons of dribble moves that look flashy but result in very little) it makes Lonzo's look like Danny Green's.

  25. #25
    One of the reasons I've been ok (for a while) with the idea of trading Holiday is that what the Pels really need at SG is a 50/40/90 guy or as close as they can get. This player should be complimentary, an efficient shooter who does not need to dominate the ball to add value.

    Can Lonzo fill that role? Well, his 3-point shot is the closest element. As a 38%+ guy on catch and shoot this is some ground to build on. Of course, he's not nearly as good off the dribble, but not sure that's a deal breaker given the role Pels are envisioning. Lonzo, however, is not close to being 50% FG scorer. His career shooting percentage is 39% (!) and that only ticked up to around 40% last season. Terrible, especially for a "shooting" guard or wing. We know the culprit. He can't/won't score in the paint. It's a big deficiency. Worse still though is his FT%. He's actually below 50% from the stripe in his career, though he did improve nominally last season to about 57%, albeit on a small sample size.

    It's hard to see how Lonzo can become a viable shooting guard/wing with anything like his to-date FG% and FT%. He's just too far off the mark, even as a decent catch-and-shoot guy. For comparison, resident senior citizen J.J. Redick is a shooting guard who actually shoots: 45% from the field, 40% from the arc and 89% from the line on about 10-12 attempts per game. Sure, you have to hide him on defense but that's one reason they got Adams, right? Even a scraper like Josh Hart shows some promise, shooting 43% from the field, 35% from distance and 71% from the stripe. Edge those percentages up 2-3% and you've got something.

    Maybe Lonzo can make another quantum leap in his overall shooting like he did last season with stand still 3-pointers. But unless it comes quickly, it's hard to see how you can justify paying him like a core part of the roster. You'd be chasing the money, trying to justify the sunk costs and that always turns out badly.

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