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Thread: 2021 NBA Draft Discussion

  1. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by DroopyDawg View Post
    Kid is impressive. His heart condition may scare some teams off even with the clearance, but I hope he gets his chance.

    Um, why is no one talking about how deep those threes are that he's effortlessly hitting

  2. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by AusPel View Post
    Um, why is no one talking about how deep those threes are that he's effortlessly hitting
    He's legit. He's got a relatively small frame (not a plus wingspan, relatively narrow shoulders, not massively strong in the lower body) and he isn't an elite passer or finisher at the rim, and of course he's older (3 years at Baylor) so that's why he's not a top top top prospect but there's pretty much no doubt in my mind that he will be a real NBA minutes getter.
    Cade Cunningham/Usman Garuba/Jaden Springer/Moses Moody/Corey Kispert endorser.

    Eye test people: analytics people watch more basketball than you do.

  3. #753
    Am I missing something here with Trey Murphy? Knock down catch and shoot 3 point shooter who seems like he'll be able to step in and defend bigger wings immediately.

    Why does Deandre Hunter go 4th two years ago, but now Murphy is being talked about in the late first. I get he's 21 and can't create for himself, but we're watching Cam Johnson have a major impact in the finals right now. I don't see any way that that player actually slides into the 20s

  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelafanatic View Post
    Am I missing something here with Trey Murphy? Knock down catch and shoot 3 point shooter who seems like he'll be able to step in and defend bigger wings immediately.

    Why does Deandre Hunter go 4th two years ago, but now Murphy is being talked about in the late first. I get he's 21 and can't create for himself, but we're watching Cam Johnson have a major impact in the finals right now. I don't see any way that that player actually slides into the 20s
    I have been thinking the exact same thing. Makes no sense to me.

  5. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by pelafanatic View Post
    Am I missing something here with Trey Murphy? Knock down catch and shoot 3 point shooter who seems like he'll be able to step in and defend bigger wings immediately.

    Why does Deandre Hunter go 4th two years ago, but now Murphy is being talked about in the late first. I get he's 21 and can't create for himself, but we're watching Cam Johnson have a major impact in the finals right now. I don't see any way that that player actually slides into the 20s
    I don't actually think he's a particularly good defender either. He's big enough and solid enough that he won't be a bad defender, but the idea that he'll just step in and be a plus defensively sounds sketchy to me.

    The thing that I think has to be understood is that in the lottery you should be drafting for upside, because if you're a lottery team you need upside. You need players who you think can be very good. Is it the case that Murphy will probably be a fine rotation player? Sure, why not. But if you don't think he has access to another level beyond that - maybe because he's old and can't create for himself or others, and isn't a uniquely good defender, which caps someone hard at the NBA level - then why wouldn't you pick someone who you do believe in like that over him?

    Sometimes it's not as much a ''this guy is bad'' issue as it is a ''these other guys have realistic avenues to being way better'' issue.

  6. #756


    Huge shame. I get it if he wasn't hearing the kind of stuff he wanted to hear with regards to his draft position, but it sucks. I'd have taken him top 20.

  7. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post


    Huge shame. I get it if he wasn't hearing the kind of stuff he wanted to hear with regards to his draft position, but it sucks. I'd have taken him top 20.
    I hear ya, he's tough and hell and bound to be a great shooter as well.

  8. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by fullcourtpress View Post
    I hear ya, he's tough and hell and bound to be a great shooter as well.
    He's super young, passes extremely well for a guy of his size, and has shown a ton of defensive upside in a Euro setting. I heard that he was getting first round promises but wanted to be a lottery pick, so I can understand his frustrations a little bit - especially if he thinks he can grow enough to be a lottery pick next year (which I think is plausible) but it does suck. Still, I guess he's going back to another professional league to keep progressing against other adults, rather than just heading back to college so it's not all bad.

  9. #759
    I'm pretty prepared to be whelmed by Kispert.

    I kinda of wish we was able to go heavy in this draft.

  10. #760
    Personally, i dont want to trade our pick. I think we make the playoffs next year even if we dont trade it. And trading it for a veteran to make us 'contenders' is probably rushing it and will be regretted.

    Trade some 2nd rounders this year and some of the Bucks' n Lakers' 1st we have stashedv= yes. But continue to add cheap talent to our roster by using our 1st rounders

    I know Moses Moody would wind up being a contributor by the end of this year, but dont know if we could get him. I believe Kispert, Wagner, and Bouknight could also

  11. #761
    I don't know who Bouknight's agent is but more people should hire him.

    4 or 5 months ago, almost nobody was discussing him as a lottery pick, and the few people who were generally had him late lottery. Most people had him in that 15-25 range.

    Now, the draft just over a week away, having played no additional games, he's exploded into a lot of people's top 10s. Whatever magical trickery is going on is something more prospects should ask for.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't draft Bouknight top 10.

  12. #762
    I'm more or less concerned that if we let Zo go, and start Kira.... How will that go? Cause if that's the plan, I see us definitely taking ANOTHER PG this draft somewhere. Whethers that's Giddey or who ever.

    Unless we're going for a Patty Mills or some sort.

  13. #763
    Kira isn't ready to start IMO, and we will end up keeping Zo, all I care about from #10 is plugging a hole in the roster, whether it's a vet or we draft someone, just needs to fill a hole.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I don't know who Bouknight's agent is but more people should hire him.

    4 or 5 months ago, almost nobody was discussing him as a lottery pick, and the few people who were generally had him late lottery. Most people had him in that 15-25 range.

    Now, the draft just over a week away, having played no additional games, he's exploded into a lot of people's top 10s. Whatever magical trickery is going on is something more prospects should ask for.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't draft Bouknight top 10.
    Could simply be his workouts. That happens every year when someone impresses in workouts.

  15. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I don't know who Bouknight's agent is but more people should hire him.

    4 or 5 months ago, almost nobody was discussing him as a lottery pick, and the few people who were generally had him late lottery. Most people had him in that 15-25 range.

    Now, the draft just over a week away, having played no additional games, he's exploded into a lot of people's top 10s. Whatever magical trickery is going on is something more prospects should ask for.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't draft Bouknight top 10.
    I think it's just people paying closer attention to the draft. He was never in the media's top 10 but was likely on many teams radars there. Keon justifiably falling with bouknight rising. They've also gotten to see that his shot is better than the percentages in workouts.

    Lillard rose like this too. It's not like a guy rising necessarily means he's being drafted too high.

    Fwiw I've always had Bouknight top 10.

  16. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    I think it's just people paying closer attention to the draft. He was never in the media's top 10 but was likely on many teams radars there. Keon justifiably falling with bouknight rising. They've also gotten to see that his shot is better than the percentages in workouts.

    Lillard rose like this too. It's not like a guy rising necessarily means he's being drafted too high.

    Fwiw I've always had Bouknight top 10.
    It could be that: it could also be the thing which happens every year, where a bunch of people who have paid zero attention to the draft all year flood in last minute to watch a bunch of highlight clips on YouTube and decide to latch on to whoever has the flashiest mixtape. There's always a couple of those too, every year.

    It's not that a guy rising means he's being drafted too high, but it is odd that people who have not seen or been at all privy to the workouts, such as us people on message boards, would rise a guy based on workouts and summer video clips. Haven't we seen enough Summer clips of Ben Simmons splashing threes and Andre Drummond crossing people up to know that these things should not be taken as even remotely applicable to real games?

    I feel like a lot of the people who love Bouknight and have him top 10 are the same people who don't understand why Duarte isn't considered top 20 and think Davion Mitchell should be top 10 as well. Is that true for you?

  17. #767
    I just truly hate the lazy take of Pels drafting Kispert with the 10 pick. Like it drives me insane.
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  18. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    It could be that: it could also be the thing which happens every year, where a bunch of people who have paid zero attention to the draft all year flood in last minute to watch a bunch of highlight clips on YouTube and decide to latch on to whoever has the flashiest mixtape. There's always a couple of those too, every year.

    It's not that a guy rising means he's being drafted too high, but it is odd that people who have not seen or been at all privy to the workouts, such as us people on message boards, would rise a guy based on workouts and summer video clips. Haven't we seen enough Summer clips of Ben Simmons splashing threes and Andre Drummond crossing people up to know that these things should not be taken as even remotely applicable to real games?

    I feel like a lot of the people who love Bouknight and have him top 10 are the same people who don't understand why Duarte isn't considered top 20 and think Davion Mitchell should be top 10 as well. Is that true for you?
    Sam Vecenie has said that teams are considering Bouknight as high as 6, and he's as plugged in as it gets.

    You're really projecting an air of 'people that dont have my opinion are wrong' right now. Pretty sure you'd be singning a different tune if we were talking about JT Thor

  19. #769
    Anyone have a favorite draft and stash guy? If we keep the 2nds in could be necessary. I'm a big fan of Rokas Jokubaitis who may be going to Barca for a few years which might scare people off but is just fine for us with too many young guys on the roster already. Really like his pace and skillset.

  20. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    Sam Vecenie has said that teams are considering Bouknight as high as 6, and he's as plugged in as it gets.

    You're really projecting an air of 'people that dont have my opinion are wrong' right now. Pretty sure you'd be singning a different tune if we were talking about JT Thor
    I think this miscommunication is occurring because you misunderstand what I'm puzzled about.

    When I say that I don't understand why some people have Bouknight top 10, I'm not saying that I don't think he will go top 10. Vecenie might be 100% correct and someone will take Bouknight in the top 5. The reality of who gets drafted at which position, however, has zero bearing on whether or not I think that makes sense as a place to take them based on my own draft philosophy. The conflict is not between the mocks and NBA front offices, it's between the mocks and my personal views on how drafting should be done.

    There are plenty of people who disagree with me on stuff that I'm fine with. Some people don't think Franz Wagner is a top 12 talent and have him 15th or 16th: I disagree but I'm fine with that. Some people have Suggs over Green, which I disagree with but I understand why. I don't have Kuminga top 10, a lot of other people do - I don't agree, but I get why they'd do it. Those people aren't wrong, they just have a different outlook on a few things. My concern isn't that people disagree with me, it's that I don't really think that the people in this particular case have a very strong argument for their point of view. Maybe I end up being wrong and Bouknight explodes out of the draft into one of the very best players of the year.

    Could you actually explain to me why you think Bouknight is top 10, rather than just getting defensive and weird about it? Maybe if you shared that point of view I'd understand a little more where you're coming from.

    And no, I wouldn't be ''singning a different tune'' if it was JT Thor: I like him a lot, but I can explain why rather than just proclaiming it, and I would still think anyone taking him top 10 was probably overdrafting.

  21. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverfoxx View Post
    I just truly hate the lazy take of Pels drafting Kispert with the 10 pick. Like it drives me insane.
    A lot of the Kispert love is, I think, people trying to draft for fit. Which I don't think is a good philosophy in the lottery. My personal take is that you draft for fit if you're the 27th pick, you're going to be a good team next year, and you just need to take swings at patching up areas you could use improvement. If you're in the lottery, ignore fit: what you need is talent flat out, and then you should be drafting for the guy you think has the biggest chance at being really good.

  22. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I think this miscommunication is occurring because you misunderstand what I'm puzzled about.

    When I say that I don't understand why some people have Bouknight top 10, I'm not saying that I don't think he will go top 10. Vecenie might be 100% correct and someone will take Bouknight in the top 5. The reality of who gets drafted at which position, however, has zero bearing on whether or not I think that makes sense as a place to take them based on my own draft philosophy. The conflict is not between the mocks and NBA front offices, it's between the mocks and my personal views on how drafting should be done.

    There are plenty of people who disagree with me on stuff that I'm fine with. Some people don't think Franz Wagner is a top 12 talent and have him 15th or 16th: I disagree but I'm fine with that. Some people have Suggs over Green, which I disagree with but I understand why. I don't have Kuminga top 10, a lot of other people do - I don't agree, but I get why they'd do it. Those people aren't wrong, they just have a different outlook on a few things. My concern isn't that people disagree with me, it's that I don't really think that the people in this particular case have a very strong argument for their point of view. Maybe I end up being wrong and Bouknight explodes out of the draft into one of the very best players of the year.

    Could you actually explain to me why you think Bouknight is top 10, rather than just getting defensive and weird about it? Maybe if you shared that point of view I'd understand a little more where you're coming from.

    And no, I wouldn't be ''singning a different tune'' if it was JT Thor: I like him a lot, but I can explain why rather than just proclaiming it, and I would still think anyone taking him top 10 was probably overdrafting.
    im not defensive. I just don't like the idea of guy I like rising is 'yea ok I can see why' as in JT Thor or Hyland. Guy I don't like rising, 'must have a good agent', 'people who like him just watch youtube', which seems to be pretty often your opinion and it's just as condescending as Mac. People rise and fall every year. It happens. Maybe Bouknight doesnt end up going top 10, and you can say see I told you so. But I think he will regardless of whether or not he should be and NBA teams don't just watch youtube.

    My argument has nothing to do with Bouknight. I totally get all the flaws, don't care if people have him as 2nd rounder. Outside of the top 4 everyone has pretty glaring ones.

  23. #773
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    Never question his authority or his pomposity; he has a stranglehold on truth don't you know?
    Disclaimer: I would never denigrate or defame Zion Williamson as a man or as a basketball player; he will go down as an NBA great and perhaps a Top 10+ player of all time. Any inference derived from any of my posts to the contrary is your mischaracterization of my words, or a sign of insecurity on your part (perhaps both).

    Respectfully,

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  24. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    im not defensive. I just don't like the idea of guy I like rising is 'yea ok I can see why' as in JT Thor or Hyland. Guy I don't like rising, 'must have a good agent', 'people who like him just watch youtube', which seems to be pretty often your opinion and it's just as condescending as Mac. People rise and fall every year. It happens. Maybe Bouknight doesnt end up going top 10, and you can say see I told you so. But I think he will regardless of whether or not he should be and NBA teams don't just watch youtube.
    You're really going to tell me there aren't people who show up late in the draft process and pick favourites based on highlights? Really? That's a pretty well discussed and known aspect of the draft and has been for years now, it's not something I've just come up with.

    In any case, yeah if there''s a guy I've thought should be rated as a lottery pick or a mid-first pick all year suddenly rising, I'll think it's good and if there's a guy who I think is rated appropriately suddenly rising I'll wonder why. It's entirely normal for people to react to one set of circumstances in one way, and then differently to a different set of circumstances. Not really sure why that's apparently worthy of contention.

    You're responding to the wrong point again.

    Look, you're saying this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    People rise and fall every year. It happens. Maybe Bouknight doesnt end up going top 10, and you can say see I told you so. But I think he will regardless of whether or not he should be
    But I have never disagreed with that. In fact, in the post you are responding to I say this:

    I'm not saying that I don't think he will go top 10. Vecenie might be 100% correct and someone will take Bouknight in the top 5. The reality of who gets drafted at which position, however, has zero bearing on whether or not I think that makes sense as a place to take them based on my own draft philosophy.
    I have never argued that he won't go top ten. My argument is only that I personally think he shouldn't. If he doesn't go top ten I won't say ''I told you so'' to anyone because that's never been my point in the first place.

    I asked you to share why you do have Bouknight top ten, so that we could potentially have a discussion about those reasons. Instead you decided to have this weird response that misrepresents what I'm saying in the first place.

  25. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    im not defensive. I just don't like the idea of guy I like rising is 'yea ok I can see why' as in JT Thor or Hyland. Guy I don't like rising, 'must have a good agent', 'people who like him just watch youtube', which seems to be pretty often your opinion and it's just as condescending as Mac. People rise and fall every year. It happens. Maybe Bouknight doesnt end up going top 10, and you can say see I told you so. But I think he will regardless of whether or not he should be and NBA teams don't just watch youtube.

    My argument has nothing to do with Bouknight. I totally get all the flaws, don't care if people have him as 2nd rounder. Outside of the top 4 everyone has pretty glaring ones.
    How dare you say he is as condescending as Me! I have been working on it for decades, and he is new to the game. He might have my upside as a condescender, but thats just his ceiling, not how I would value him as a condescender today
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