2021 NBA Draft Discussion

[AusPel]

I think this will be the best locker room in terms of intangibles and toughness we've ever had

It's gonna elevate BI for sure, hope it elevates Lonzo

[Pelicanidae]

One thing you have to know about Cade is that he's in the Luka style of star. I don't mean that he's exactly the same as Luka, player comps suck, but what I mean is that he wins with masterful pace, body control, dribble moves, craft, etc, rather than raw explosion and athleticism. He doesn't have a 45 inch vertical. Here are some clips from today, for anyone who missed the game, which show off some of these positives:

Just vicious change of pace and handling from Cade pic.twitter.com/s7AyfU91yH

— Max Carlin (@maxacarlin) November 25, 2020

Good lord this open court handling from Cade pic.twitter.com/G46MxLFkK5

— Max Carlin (@maxacarlin) November 25, 2020

Cade body control pic.twitter.com/JvejlpHkOT

— Max Carlin (@maxacarlin) November 25, 2020

Nice rotation here as well. Been very solid on defense pic.twitter.com/FrCmVnMmgY

— Max Carlin (@maxacarlin) November 25, 2020

Cade's handling, strength, and balance. Going to be such a fun season pic.twitter.com/tn5QnlfYMs

— Max Carlin (@maxacarlin) November 25, 2020

Cade pull-up 3. Dominant performance pic.twitter.com/80v6MYN5D8

— Max Carlin (@maxacarlin) November 25, 2020

Cade more change of pace on the rejection and finish through contact. Realizing the combination of pace, strength, and touch is potent pic.twitter.com/6cu2vctqAr

— Max Carlin (@maxacarlin) November 25, 2020

I would recommend Max as a follow on Twitter by the way, for anyone interested in the draft. He's one of several really good draft twitter accounts: not only does he do a lot of clipping, which is great if you miss a game and can't catch up for a while (though obviously, still watch the full game when you can), but he's also one of the two hosts of the Prep2Pro podcast, the best draft podcast out there imo.

[AusPel]

We're not getting pick 1 anyway so

[Pelicanidae]

We're not getting pick 1 anyway so

Very probably not, but my interest in the draft isn't exclusively for this team. It's as a full, enjoyable process.

[luckyman]

I tend to keep one eye open on this until around tourney time. Can't get influenced by early boards when there are always so many that rise and so many that fall.

Will try to keep track of dude that went to Gonzaga. Forgot his name but like his game. And Makur Maker simply because he chose to go to Howard. That is a non-sheep leader right there.

[Pelicanidae]

I tend to keep one eye open on this until around tourney time. Can't get influenced by early boards when there are always so many that rise and so many that fall.

Will try to keep track of dude that went to Gonzaga. Forgot his name but like his game. And Makur Maker simply because he chose to go to Howard. That is a non-sheep leader right there.

You're probably talking about Jalen Suggs, he's going to Gonzaga. Good prospect, I don't have him top 5 in my early rankings but as you say, people can rise and people can fall.

I think it's important for people to be open and up front about the fact that early boards are very subject to change. Like yes, we've been able to watch these guys in AAU or FIBA or in international ball for a while now, so early boards aren't made up out of thin air, but things change as bodies develop and guys just entering college are at a point where skills can take pretty huge leaps. So you've gotta be open minded to change.

[PaKwAn]

[Pelicanidae]

Mobley is good! Top 5 pick in the draft.

[Eman5805]

Only thing I didn't like after seeing Mobley for the first time is he's so skinny. But he's a modern big template personified.

[Pelicanidae]

Only thing I didn't like after seeing Mobley for the first time is he's so skinny. But he's a modern big template personified.

He's legit big with genuine movement skills and some finesse.

What I'm looking for most from him this year is the ability to take advantage of his physicality. He's become very good at making tough shots, which gets a lot of media attention and is valuable, but an even more valuable skill is the ability to *create* easy looks. So far in his career he's not been able to do that quite as much as we might like, so it's something to watch.

Still would have been a clear #1 in the 2020 draft.

[Pelicanidae]

You're probably talking about Jalen Suggs, he's going to Gonzaga. Good prospect, I don't have him top 5 in my early rankings but as you say, people can rise and people can fall.

I think it's important for people to be open and up front about the fact that early boards are very subject to change. Like yes, we've been able to watch these guys in AAU or FIBA or in international ball for a while now, so early boards aren't made up out of thin air, but things change as bodies develop and guys just entering college are at a point where skills can take pretty huge leaps. So you've gotta be open minded to change.

Speaking of Suggs, what an opener from him. Great game, looked fantastic. His passing was on point, super efficient. Love to see it.

[luckyman]

Speaking of Suggs, what an opener from him. Great game, looked fantastic. His passing was on point, super efficient. Love to see it.

Of course. Even did a football QB style look off on one of those passes. Excellent. My contribution to this thread till the tourney ends here. Deuces.

[Pelicanidae]

Jalen Johnson having a fantastic game too. As I write this, he has 15 points and 11 rebounds with 2 blocks and a steal on 6/6 shooting. Just making it look easy.

This draft class hasn't wasted time on showing up.

[Pelicanidae]

This year is going to be a very fun exercise in who can detect good circumstances from bad. For example, Jalen Johnson: very good prospect, but playing in a fantastic context for him that minimises his flaws and really boosts his strengths a lot. Cade, on the other hand, is in a horrible team context playing with a bunch of really bad players on a team which basically doesn't have an offense outside of just him driving. This completely minimises his passing abilities because there's nobody to pass to and him passing is a worse option than him just driving.

He's doing well with the driving, averaging 20/8/4 on 50/42/83 over the first two games, but as the excellent PD Web says:

This is like seeing the photorealistic drawings of Basquiat. Like, it's cool that he can do it, but it sort of misses the point.

— PD Web (@abovethebreak3) November 29, 2020

[AusPel]

#TradeForCade

[Pelicanidae]

Just as a general draft note, I think my two least favourite types of player in the draft - that always gain popularity in mainstream draft circles, largely due to mixtape hype - are the following:

1) The straightline driver who, due to size or athleticism, dominates low level college and high school competition by just bulldozing to the rim all the time but whose athleticism isn't like, all time great, so you just know that when they get to the NBA and the advantage shrinks, they'll be screwed. Never has to learn or develop counters or tricks, and so becomes one-dimensional.

2) The purely off-ball shooter who doesn't have any skills outside of catch and shoot jumpers. Doesn't screen, can't pass, can't hit pullups, can't dribble, just runs from pre-determined spot to pre-determined spot and shoots c&s jumpers. Will often hit them at a high rate, but needs to be otherworldly good for this to translate to the NBA and even then is less useful when compared to NBA shooters who are just as good but who can also do other things.

[Mount Zion]

Just as a general draft note, I think my two least favourite types of player in the draft - that always gain popularity in mainstream draft circles, largely due to mixtape hype - are the following:

1) The straightline driver who, due to size or athleticism, dominates low level college and high school competition by just bulldozing to the rim all the time but whose athleticism isn't like, all time great, so you just know that when they get to the NBA and the advantage shrinks, they'll be screwed. Never has to learn or develop counters or tricks, and so becomes one-dimensional.

I realize that it was just his first game in college, but it seemed like you were describing Brandon Boston in Kentucky's game against Morehead. He got to the rim against less athletic players, but even then he seemed out of control and a couple of buckets seemed to be lucky rolls that were just thrown toward the rim. As I was watching him, I found myself more impressed with Jackson and Fletcher than Boston, even though Boston led the team in points and rebounds. Maybe it was due to the hype, but I expected a more dominant and controlled player and I kept thinking that he had a long way to go to justify him as a lottery pick. He has obvious tools, but his shooting was non-existent if he wasn't near the rim and he was 0-4 from deep. He should have dominated on defense too as a 6'7" guard with his athleticism, but he didn't impress me there either. Again, I know it was a first game, but I didn't come away thinking that he was a guy I would like to have on the Pelicans.

[Pelicanidae]

I realize that it was just his first game in college, but it seemed like you were describing Brandon Boston in Kentucky's game against Morehead. He got to the rim against less athletic players, but even then he seemed out of control and a couple of buckets seemed to be lucky rolls that were just thrown toward the rim. As I was watching him, I found myself more impressed with Jackson and Fletcher than Boston, even though Boston led the team in points and rebounds. Maybe it was due to the hype, but I expected a more dominant and controlled player and I kept thinking that he had a long way to go to justify him as a lottery pick. He has obvious tools, but his shooting was non-existent if he wasn't near the rim and he was 0-4 from deep. He should have dominated on defense too as a 6'7" guard with his athleticism, but he didn't impress me there either. Again, I know it was a first game, but I didn't come away thinking that he was a guy I would like to have on the Pelicans.

Boston is an odd duck. He was incredible pre-college, so I would hold off of slamming the brakes after one game.

One of his problems is that he is, as you will have noticed, extremely thin. There's going to be an adjustment period while he works on the physicality of the college game, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar probation period when he comes into the NBA. That's part of the issue.

I would ignore the 0/4 shooting from 3, honestly, unless it becomes a persistent issue. He was a top tier shot maker and hugely talented scoring prospect prior to college, and as you say, it's been a single game. He was absolutely not a one-dimensional player leading up until now, he had a diverse and highly skilful scoring package. Give him a chance to see if that translates or not.

[Pelicanidae]

I would also add that Boston is on Kentucky, which has a long and rich history under Cal of producing absolutely underwhelming college players by suppressing their best skills and forcing them into a not-great system, who then become spectacular in the NBA once they're set free. KAT, AD, Booker, all come to mind. Maxey won't be quite as good as those three, but he's another example of a guy who showed tons of upside pre college, went to Kentucky and got played really weirdly, and will be good in the NBA despite it.

[Pelicanidae]

This is the BJ Boston I remember, winning with handle and space creation pic.twitter.com/vLlLFlKFhm

— Jackson Frank (@jackfrank_jjf) November 29, 2020

Oh there we go

[pelafanatic]

I know everyone is going to be on the Cade Cunningham high for a while because we’re finally getting to see him play college basketball. He’s a great prospect;however, his foot speed is extremely concerning for me. It will be exceedingly difficult for him to create without good quickness. Does he have Luka-level craftiness? That’s what remains to be seen

[Pelicanidae]

I know everyone is going to be on the Cade Cunningham high for a while because we’re finally getting to see him play college basketball. He’s a great prospect;however, his foot speed is extremely concerning for me. It will be exceedingly difficult for him to create without good quickness. Does he have Luka-level craftiness? That’s what remains to be seen

He is playing in an absolutely sub-optimal context and has still been very successful so far. So I think that's a good sign.

He's one of the best passers on the planet, regardless of competition level, and has been for at least two years or so. That's an enormous strength, and he's playing on a team where it basically doesn't matter because his team sucks and the offense is overly simplistic. The fact that despite having his highest level skill taken away from him so far, he's still been clearly head and shoulders above everyone on his team and the other team, is a plus.

He's the closest thing to Luka since Luka, except better on defense and slightly worse with the handle. Luka, Zion, Cade are all similar levels of talents - though if I had to rank them, it would probably be in that order.

[Silverfoxx]

He is playing in an absolutely sub-optimal context and has still been very successful so far. So I think that's a good sign.

He's one of the best passers on the planet, regardless of competition level, and has been for at least two years or so. That's an enormous strength, and he's playing on a team where it basically doesn't matter because his team sucks and the offense is overly simplistic. The fact that despite having his highest level skill taken away from him so far, he's still been clearly head and shoulders above everyone on his team and the other team, is a plus.

He's the closest thing to Luka since Luka, except better on defense and slightly worse with the handle. Luka, Zion, Cade are all similar levels of talents - though if I had to rank them, it would probably be in that order.

Where does Cade passing ranks among LaMelo and Zo ad college prospects?

[AusPel]

Where does Cade passing ranks among LaMelo and Zo ad college prospects?

Zo is not nearly the passer Melo is in the half court.

Melo is a true lead guard, running pick and rolls, being really creative on the fly at speed, doing the flashy stuff.

Creating on the fly while under pressure was never Zo's strength. When you give him a bit of space so he can quickly assess options but not have to make an absolutely split second decision, is when when he makes those impressive dishes. Every now and again he shows improvements in the half court which inspires hope.

Different skill sets

[Pelicanidae]

Where does Cade passing ranks among LaMelo and Zo ad college prospects?

He's better than Lonzo, about as good as LaMelo except he's functionally strong enough and capable enough of scoring for it to actually get put to use.

The thing about Cade is that he's on that LaMelo level as a passer, but he's also already 230lbs and has fantastic body control, and is not at all afraid of contact. Which means he's basically Luka*.

*Player comparisons are always bad and he's not actually a clone of Luka, they play quite differently, but in terms of being big with strong frames and great balance/control and otherworldly passing, he's a good reference to get the idea.