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Thread: Jrue Holliday is everyone's "missing piece"

  1. #1

    Jrue Holliday is everyone's "missing piece"

    Yes, Jrue Holliday is a hot item. Every team still in the bubble is realizing that they should have called the Pels and thrown out an offer for Jrue when they had the chance. That mistake won’t be made again by our opponents. That is great for us, but what could anyone offer us that would be of interest? Eventual late round draft picks? Players not on Jrue’s level? Cap space for free agent that won’t come here?

    And why should the Pels trade him? Are we looking to take a step back? Do we think our team is past needing his veteran presence?

    What do people expect/want from the Jrue storyline?
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  2. #2
    Well, this is the whole thing for me.

    Pels fans are simultaneously saying ''Jrue is the missing piece for X Y Z team to be a real contender'', but also saying ''Nobody is going to pay high value for Jrue!''.

    Both of these things can't be true at once. If teams believe Jrue is the missing piece they need to turn into a real championship contender, they will pay highly for him.
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  3. #3
    I’m of the mind that you keep him. Any contender looking to trade for him isn’t going to give you equal value. You will net a mix of a late first rounder(s), and some middle of the pack level player (and you will pray that he doesn’t exercise his player option tying up your salary cap for a move that you do want to make).

    In my mind you take advantage of the goodwill you have built up with Jrue, and let him be a key piece in the team’s growth, and count on him aging like CP3 and not Derron Williams. There is no reason to trade him as he is a big piece to the teams trajectory from both a playing and veteran standpoint.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    I’m of the mind that you keep him. Any contender looking to trade for him isn’t going to give you equal value. You will net a mix of a late first rounder(s), and some middle of the pack level player (and you will pray that he doesn’t exercise his player option tying up your salary cap for a move that you do want to make).

    In my mind you take advantage of the goodwill you have built up with Jrue, and let him be a key piece in the team’s growth, and count on him aging like CP3 and not Derron Williams. There is no reason to trade him as he is a big piece to the teams trajectory from both a playing and veteran standpoint.
    I'm of the opinion that you keep him unless you get an offer you can't refuse.

    If that happens, then you obviously can't refuse, by definition. Otherwise, if all we get are mediocre offers of mediocre players, maybe with a late first attached as you say then I'm not interested. Jrue is a good player, I think his game will age well, he seems to want to be here, and he's actually a pretty good fit with Zion imo, even if he's not the right age to fit ''the time line'' that people like to bring up.

    Jrue's a good guy. He had a rough year this year, mostly with regards to turnovers, because he was being asked to do a lot: other than him, we don't really have a reliable halfcourt guard who can run offense, and he was also our best perimeter/wing defender who always took on the hardest matchup. Even then, he was pretty good this year, despite that. The last two years before this one, he was even better. I feel like if we can acquire a decent lead guard either in the draft or through FA/trade, then he'll be more like his best self next season again, and that's extremely good. You don't just throw players of that calibre away for a laugh or cause you think trading guys is in fashion. You only do it if you see a real benefit to it.

  5. #5
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Taker597's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I'm of the opinion that you keep him unless you get an offer you can't refuse.

    If that happens, then you obviously can't refuse, by definition. Otherwise, if all we get are mediocre offers of mediocre players, maybe with a late first attached as you say then I'm not interested. Jrue is a good player, I think his game will age well, he seems to want to be here, and he's actually a pretty good fit with Zion imo, even if he's not the right age to fit ''the time line'' that people like to bring up.

    Jrue's a good guy. He had a rough year this year, mostly with regards to turnovers, because he was being asked to do a lot: other than him, we don't really have a reliable halfcourt guard who can run offense, and he was also our best perimeter/wing defender who always took on the hardest matchup. Even then, he was pretty good this year, despite that. The last two years before this one, he was even better. I feel like if we can acquire a decent lead guard either in the draft or through FA/trade, then he'll be more like his best self next season again, and that's extremely good. You don't just throw players of that calibre away for a laugh or cause you think trading guys is in fashion. You only do it if you see a real benefit to it.
    Go look at his contract. See the 2022 player option that he'll clearly opt out. Go back at look at our roster. Then, go look at our salary. Go back and look at our roster median age. Then, look at the outlook of resigning a 31 year old guard to a 5 year max on a super young team 5 years from hitting it's prime vs. joining a vet team that is "one" piece away.

    This is probably why you trade him and get some value for him than nothing at all. Come to term with it. We need to go with a full rebuild. Quit chasing the ninth seed. Letting go of Jrue Holiday is what needs to be done. I hate it as much as you do, but it's the truth.
    Last edited by Taker597; 08-24-2020 at 12:55 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Taker597 View Post
    Go look at his contract. See the 2022 player option that he'll clearly opt out. Go back at look at our roster. Then, go look at our salary. Go back and look at our roster median age. Then, look at the outlook of resigning a 31 year old guard to a 5 year max on a super young team 5 years from hitting it's prime vs. joining a vet team that is "one" piece away.

    This is probably why you trade him and get some value for him than nothing at all. Come to term with it. We need to go with a full rebuild. Quit chasing the ninth seed. Letting go of Jrue Holiday is what needs to be done. I hate it as much as you do, but it's the truth.
    I don't believe that really any of this is true. First of all I don't think that roster median age means that much. If your average median age is 25, say, you aren't suddenly banned from having any players over 30 on your roster, and there is actually a popular (and I think persuasive) argument that says on young teams the presence of vets is very valuable.

    Secondly, I'm not sure that Jrue will opt out. The 2021 FA market is pretty packed out: nobody is throwing Jrue a max in a free agency class that contains people like Giannis, so he may well opt in on the basis that the next summer will have less competition for the freed up money. This assumes of course that he doesn't just extend here, which he may well, without it being a 5 year max.

    Thirdly, I haven't said that I'm refusing to trade him. What I have said is that I'm not going to trade him for spare parts and some gum. If someone thinks he's their key to a ring, they can pay for him. If they don't, we can keep him and potentially extend him: that's not an issue to me. I'm not saying we need Denver to offer Jokic, MPJ, and 5 FRPs, but I *am* saying that I'm not going to move Jrue for Caris LeVerts abolished knees and the privilege to pay Dinwiddie $20m.

  7. #7
    RIP BDJ AUSSIE_PELICAN's Avatar
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    As much as I love Jrue and I do think he is one of the few loyal guy's still in the league, if they get a good offer you have to trade him.
    The team needs to collect assets for future stars they will need to add to their core of Bi and Zion.
    This team doen't need to pay Jrue 25+ per year over the next 4 years.

    Let's face it, he is a great defender, great team mate and truly great person, but give me a guard who can get to the line, create their own shot and hit the 3 ball.

    Set him free to a contender where he has a chance to win a ship.
    Last edited by AUSSIE_PELICAN; 08-24-2020 at 05:22 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN View Post
    Let's face it, he is a great defender, great team mate and truly great person, but give me a guard who can get to the line, create their own shot and hit the 3 ball.
    Jrue had the lowest percentage of his 2 and 3 point makes assisted this year our of anyone on our team that played significant minutes.

    Only 57.4% of Jrue's 3s this year were assisted. That is the lowest out of anyone on our team: second lowest is Lonzo, at 82.4%, and then Ingram at 88.7%. Jrue also shot 35% on pullups this year, which may not sound great (it isn't, it's basically average) but it was enough to make him the 2nd most accurate pullup shooter on the team, behind Redick (42.1%). For comparison, Lonzo shot 31.9% on pullups, Ingram 27.9%, E'twaun 27.3%, and Hart 23%.

    Only 31% of Jrue's 2pt makes this year were assisted. The only player to come within 10% of that is Ingram, who had 32% of his 2pt makes assisted (so very close). The next group of guys are all up in the 40's.

    There are critiques we can make of Jrue, but the idea that he can't create his own shot is sort of just not something that applies to reality. He's almost certainly the best player on the entire team at creating their own shot; his problem is that he isn't aggressive enough to do it as much as we'd like. The actual skillset is absolutely there.

    In fact, given how massively assisted almost everyone on this team was from 3,

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by UNO Gracias View Post
    Yes, Jrue Holliday is a hot item. Every team still in the bubble is realizing that they should have called the Pels and thrown out an offer for Jrue when they had the chance. That mistake won’t be made again by our opponents. That is great for us, but what could anyone offer us that would be of interest? Eventual late round draft picks? Players not on Jrue’s level? Cap space for free agent that won’t come here?

    And why should the Pels trade him? Are we looking to take a step back? Do we think our team is past needing his veteran presence?

    What do people expect/want from the Jrue storyline?
    To me, it all comes down to how far you think the Pels are away from the top 6-7 teams in the West next year, and to me...its pretty far. Add to that there is a pandemic that will likely keep fans out of arenas next year - or at the very least, reduce capacity of arenas - and that should add up to them purposely taking a step back next year. No, not tanking. Thats how a simple person would describe it. Just not buying, and selling strategically when you get the chance. You still go into next year with talent. You add some vets for culture. You go hard every game, and maybe you even vastly overachieve like Memphis did this year with that formula. But in the offseason, you make sell moves - and with Jrue likely to be the best player that changes teams if you trade him, you should be able to get solid value.

    I would look to Brooklyn first, even though I really dont like anybody on their roster except Dinwiddie for our current team. Something like Dinwiddie, Prince, and 2-3 future picks would make me happy. I am asking as far out as possible, and I would also hope to maybe get an additional pick or two from Dinwiddie and/or Prince over the next year or two at deadlines.

    But again, I probably think we are further away than most. My timeline would be 2021 as a non-playoff, let young guys take their lumps year. 2022 is go for the playoffs, maybe you make it, maybe you fall short do to bad breaks like in CP3's 2nd year, and then year 3 you make a huge leap because of a combination of internal growth and you trade in some of these assets you built up in AD and Jrue trades to round out the roster.

    I would rather that timeline than: Keep Jrue, add a solid vet or two and compete for 8th or 9th this year. Pay Jrue huge money to keep him, and rinse and repeat the next year, and the next year, etc
    @mcnamara247

  10. #10
    Jrue will be traded and the feeling will be mutual. I think part of the reason for his erratic play this year was --i believe--he just wasn't mentally in it. His time here has become stale.

    Best both parties move on.

  11. #11
    Putting together a championship contender is hard work and requires careful planning. Let Jrue be a "missing piece" for another time and let him provide us assets we can use for future team building.

  12. #12
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    Jrue will be traded and the feeling will be mutual. I think part of the reason for his erratic play this year was --i believe--he just wasn't mentally in it. His time here has become stale.

    Best both parties move on.
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  14. #14
    Ready for him to be traded yesterday. Makes no sense for the team for him to remain a Pelican.

  15. #15
    I love Jrue as a person and part of me wants him to retire a Pelican. However, I'm not comfortable committing $25+mil and over 3+ years to him when he may be our 3rd best player in 3 years when we may be ready to compete. His minutes and cap space could be better used. I think he's a very good player, but not great. I also need the leader of my team to give me more than 7 points in what was basically an elimination game against the spurs. Outside of his defense and the Blazers playoff series Jrue's on-court presence in NO has been underwhelming imo.

    Resigning Jrue signals we are ok with mediocrity. We shouldn't be giving that impression to Zion and BI, and we as fans deserve greatness after nearly 20 years.

  16. #16
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    The annoying thing is people who equate trading someone with thinking they're bad. Which is so antithetical to what a trade is even meant to do. If we expect to get something useful for Jrue, clearly we expect another team to have a high opinion of him. But ourselves, we think he's garbage now?

    We need a true point to handle the rock until Zion comes of age. I can see him being a primary ball handler eventually. Or at least someone we're fully comfortable bringing the ball up and pushing the tempo.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    The annoying thing is people who equate trading someone with thinking they're bad. Which is so antithetical to what a trade is even meant to do. If we expect to get something useful for Jrue, clearly we expect another team to have a high opinion of him. But ourselves, we think he's garbage now?

    We need a true point to handle the rock until Zion comes of age. I can see him being a primary ball handler eventually. Or at least someone we're fully comfortable bringing the ball up and pushing the tempo.
    To me, the biggest need is a guard (or guards) that get to the line. Its insane how little Jrue and Lonzo get there, and how rarely they make FTs when they get there. They combine to go 2.8 for 4.2 on free throws. COMBINED

    You got Zion and Ingram drawing fouls all over the place. Hayes also has an insane FTr and you can see that maintaining as he gets more minutes over the years. One more guard that gets downhill and gets to the line and we can live in the bonus every quarter. Instead, we have two guards who are allergic to getting to the line and make them at a poor clip when they get here.

    Thats why I like Dinwiddie short term. Guy gets to the line. And in this draft, Hayes, Lewis, and Anthony all have shown they can get there. Yes, we need shooting, but I see a guard who can get to the line as an even bigger priority.

  18. #18
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Taker597's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eman5805 View Post
    The annoying thing is people who equate trading someone with thinking they're bad. Which is so antithetical to what a trade is even meant to do. If we expect to get something useful for Jrue, clearly we expect another team to have a high opinion of him. But ourselves, we think he's garbage now?

    We need a true point to handle the rock until Zion comes of age. I can see him being a primary ball handler eventually. Or at least someone we're fully comfortable bringing the ball up and pushing the tempo.

    never understood this whole Jrue is garbage stuff. He is a Supplement Superstar that would do wonders as a 3rd option. Expecting to get the farm for him as Superstar on his own... He lost value, but the whole argument of selling low is only in context we could of gotten someone to overpay for Jrue's value. The interest was there, but held on to Jrue. I think you can get a pretty fair deal. I think matching salary with young players and multiple unprotected future 1st from a title contender is probably the best deal you'll get.

    The Brooklyn trade deal is almost impossible to do because of salary match with a Tax team. Nets don't have the low end salary to move Dinwiddle. If it they do... It would require a combination of Din, Allen, and couple of low end salary players It'll probably require a 3rd team. Possibly unloading Ball in the process as well. Brooklyn going to have to unload salary this offseason. 140 million tax team after a pandemic. I doubt you see any tax team next year.

  19. #19
    It stinks that we are in the same division as the Grizz and the Mavs, and that we are in the Western Conference with those teams and the Warriors, Timberwolves, Jazz, Lakers, Clippers, Blazers, Suns, Rockets, Nuggs, Thunder, and Spurs (everyone will be competitive minus the Kings). Taking a step back next year can be expected, so now is as good a time as any to not perform well, but there is a balance that needs to be struck. You can take a step back on purpose, but if you don’t have the right pieces in place it can throw you into a tailspin that you can’t get out of. That’s why keeping a guy like Jrue is key. You can perform poorly with or without him, but he keeps your guys in line as he has been through this process a couple of times in this city. IMHO that is more important than what you would get for him via trade.

  20. #20
    No team will give equal value for Jrue, so you keep him. Just think of what he is really worth on both sides of the ball, and you will realize no team will give that for him, with the small possibility of some borderline-championship team who would sacrifice a large chunk of their future in the draft.

    BUT, what is something within the realm of possibility, is packaging Jrue and Lonzo together for a REAL star-level player to put next to BI and Zion who wants out of their situation for whatever reason. Not saying these are necessarily good fits or even remote possibilities at all, but something along the lines of Siakam maybe gets tired of Toronto weather, Jimmy Butler pisses off the wrong executive, etc. With the horrendous way Paul George is playing in the playoffs (and has historically played in the playoffs), Clippers may very well try to dump him. At this point that would be a hard pass.

  21. #21
    There is something to be said for a guy who is very pro-team, pro-city, as opposed to a Jimmy Butler/Kendrick Perkins putting poison in the well type personality. I would rather keep Jrue and him be content than trade for a guy who didn’t want to come here from the jump, or only came here to cash one last pay check.

  22. #22
    2 deals I like:

    Jrue for LaVert (3 years $52 million total) and Dinwiddie (1 year 11.4 million with player option after)


    Jrue and Redick for Oladipo (1-year $21 million) and Myles Turner (3 years, $18 million a year)
    Last edited by Darkhorse985; 08-24-2020 at 04:40 PM.

  23. #23
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! Taker597's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhorse985 View Post
    2 deals I like:

    Jrue for LaVert (3 years $52 million total) and Dinwiddie (1 year 11.4 million with player option after)


    Jrue and Redick for Oladipo (1-year $21 million) and Myles Turner (3 years, $18 million a year)
    Nets will probably want Miller to get under the tax.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhorse985 View Post
    2 deals I like:

    Jrue for LaVert (3 years $52 million total) and Dinwiddie (1 year 11.4 million with player option after)


    Jrue and Redick for Oladipo (1-year $21 million) and Myles Turner (3 years, $18 million a year)
    Not going to comment too much on the first deal, since we've all talked about it a bunch, I just want to inform you that there is almost no chance Dinwiddie takes the player option. There is no way I can imagine a dude who tried to get the fans to do a crowd-funded bitcoin based $25m deal for his own services accepting an opt in for basically half market value. There is no universe where I can see him opting in to $11m when the market for starting guards floats around at almost double that. If you're trading for Dinwiddie, you're trading for the right to pay him $20m a year.

    As for the second deal, I do like Turner but you're essentially giving up the Jrue + Redick for Myles Turner and an expiring Oladipo. With Oladipo, he's been awful since his first major injury two years ago, and he's only been more injured since. So either you're not planning on resigning him (in which case, why bother acquiring him?) or you're hoping he's going to come back from the injury and have a resurgent year, in which case you're trading for the right to pay him $20m+ a year again, despite him being barely younger than Jrue (at the end of next season, Jrue will be 30 and Oladipo will be 29) which I've been repeatedly told is why we can't resign Jrue.
    Last edited by Pelicanidae; 08-24-2020 at 05:02 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Not going to comment too much on the first deal, since we've all talked about it a bunch, I just want to inform you that there is almost no chance Dinwiddie takes the player option. There is no way I can imagine a dude who tried to get the fans to do a crowd-funded bitcoin based $25m deal for his own services accepting an opt in for basically half market value. There is no universe where I can see him opting in to $11m when the market for starting guards floats around at almost double that. If you're trading for Dinwiddie, you're trading for the right to pay him $20m a year.

    As for the second deal, I do like Turner but you're essentially giving up the Jrue + Redick for Myles Turner and an expiring Oladipo. With Oladipo, he's been awful since his first major injury two years ago, and he's only been more injured since. So either you're not planning on resigning him (in which case, why bother acquiring him?) or you're hoping he's going to come back from the injury and have a resurgent year, in which case you're trading for the right to pay him $20m+ a year again, despite him being barely younger than Jrue (at the end of next season, Jrue will be 30 and Oladipo will be 29) which I've been repeatedly told is why we can't resign Jrue.
    Deal 1: Who cares on the Dinwiddie deal? LaVert is the real prize with Dinwiddie as Lagniappe and a possible replacement for Ball.

    Deal 2: I don’t see Redick on this team beyond next year as he will likely championship chase on his next contract. Jrue will opt in on his player option as no one will pay him $27 million a year on his next deal. Turner is the prize as a true stretch center who can defend an actual center on a reasonable contract. Oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy.

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