Jrue Holiday Appreciation Thread

[Tinman]

You do know that because we live in the age of the Internet, I can watch full games that happened before I was born? Pretty easily. Look, I'll show you:







Just for a couple of examples.

I fully concede that I haven't watched as much Pistol Pete as you probably have (although it's worth nothing that I've also probably watched these games more recently than you have, and therefore might have less of a rose-tinted-glasses view on them), but that's very different from ''you never watched Maravich play an entire game.''

Man, c'mon, you're trying to hard. I watched 30 games per year for 4 yrs & listened to the other 52.
BTW- It's not that easy. 95% of NBA games were NOT televised AT ALL in the 70's. So Really? C'mon .
It is axiomatically the opposite of "very easy" . It's actually very difficult.

[Pelicanidae]

Man, c'mon, you're trying to hard. I watched 30 games per year for 4 yrs & listened to the other 52.
BTW- It's not that easy. 95% of NBA games were NOT televised AT ALL in the 70's. So Really? C'mon .

It really is easy. The fact that not all games were televised doesn't mean that you can't find many of the games that were. I'm not saying ''well we have the internet so you can just hop onto google and watch every single game that happened in the 70s!'' because obviously that's not true, but you can watch plenty of games from the 70s, 80s, and 90s without too much difficulty. You can even watch some 60s ball, although that's a little more difficult and you tend to find halves rather than full games (I've seen the 2nd half of the 1967 Celtics V Sixers ECF game 4, for example, but not the 1st half).

Like I said, you've watched more Maravich than I have. Totally willing to concede that. But when you come into discussions with this pointless and dismissive ''yeah well, you probably don't even know what you're talking about, you've never even watched X!'' attitude then you're poisoning the discussion before it really even starts. It makes a ton of implications about the person you're talking to, and none of those implications are pleasant, and in this case, they're also untrue and somewhat insulting.

You want to defend Pistol Pete, go for it; nobody is denying that he's an all time great and a HoF'er, well deserved. But all I said was that if we're being honest, he had flaws. And he did.

[Tinman]

It really is easy. The fact that not all games were televised doesn't mean that you can't find many of the games that were. I'm not saying ''well we have the internet so you can just hop onto google and watch every single game that happened in the 70s!'' because obviously that's not true, but you can watch plenty of games from the 70s, 80s, and 90s without too much difficulty. You can even watch some 60s ball, although that's a little more difficult and you tend to find halves rather than full games (I've seen the 2nd half of the 1967 Celtics V Sixers ECF game 4, for example, but not the 1st half).

Like I said, you've watched more Maravich than I have. Totally willing to concede that. But when you come into discussions with this pointless and dismissive ''yeah well, you probably don't even know what you're talking about, you've never even watched X!'' attitude then you're poisoning the discussion before it really even starts. It makes a ton of implications about the person you're talking to, and none of those implications are pleasant, and in this case, they're also untrue and somewhat insulting.

You want to defend Pistol Pete, go for it; nobody is denying that he's an all time great and a HoF'er, well deserved. But all I said was that if we're being honest, he had flaws. And he did.

Untrue. Do not compare the 70' to the 80's . Apple and Orange. Magic & Bird were the TV magnets & completely changed the landscape of NBA on TV in the 80's.
To use one of your favorite words - Literally, in the 70's unless it was a Televised game, there was minuscule, if any Full game footage. Video highlights were it.
IM actually not sure what "argument" you are trying to make.
First, it was "he had flaws"
Now it's "he wasn't as good as I think he is/was because I wear rose colored glasses- Although, I followed his entire career (in real time) & you have pulled up some video clips. Huh?

[Pelicanidae]

Untrue. Do not compare the 70' to the 80's . Apple and Orange. Magic & Bird were the TV magnets & completely changed the landscape of NBA on TV in the 80's.
To use one of your favorite words - Literally, in the 70's unless it was a Televised game, there was minuscule, if any Full game footage. Video highlights were it.
IM actually not sure what "argument" you are trying to make.
First, it was "he had flaws"
Now it's "he wasn't as good as I think he is/was because I wear rose colored glasses- Although, I followed his entire career (in real time) & you have pulled up some video clips. Huh?

I'm not claiming you can watch every single game from the 70s but the fact is that you can definitely watch a bunch of them. The ''video clips'' I've pulled up are examples: all three of those are full games. The fact that they exist are proof that you can indeed watch full games from the 70s, and those three games are not the only games from the 70s that have been preserved. You can watch them. Any attempt to pretend that you can't watch any full games from the 70s is just flat out dishonesty.

I said that Pistol Pete had flaws. Then later in the discusses I then added this: ''I've also probably watched these games more recently than you have, and therefore might have less of a rose-tinted-glasses view on them''. This doesn't disagree with the first point, and it doesn't discredit the experience you've had watching the Pistol play. The fact that you watched tons and tons of his game is still totally true, and I'm not discounting it.

That's not the same as changing the argument. In fact, the two actually lead on from each other; Pistol Pete was a great player. I haven't denied that, nobody else has denied that. But he was not a perfect player, and therefore he had flaws and the fact that you watched him at the time, which was a long while ago, may have allowed some of the flaws in his game to get glossed over in the nostalgia haze. That's perfectly normal, everyone has that sometimes. Maybe that's not the case, and you're actually totally aware of Pistol Pete's flaws, but then it makes it kind of weird that you'd react so negatively to someone just pointing out that they existed.

[Tinman]

I'm not claiming you can watch every single game from the 70s but the fact is that you can definitely watch a bunch of them. The ''video clips'' I've pulled up are examples: all three of those are full games. The fact that they exist are proof that you can indeed watch full games from the 70s, and those three games are not the only games from the 70s that have been preserved. You can watch them. Any attempt to pretend that you can't watch any full games from the 70s is just flat out dishonesty.

I said that Pistol Pete had flaws. Then later in the discusses I then added this: ''I've also probably watched these games more recently than you have, and therefore might have less of a rose-tinted-glasses view on them''. This doesn't disagree with the first point, and it doesn't discredit the experience you've had watching the Pistol play. The fact that you watched tons and tons of his game is still totally true, and I'm not discounting it.

That's not the same as changing the argument. In fact, the two actually lead on from each other; Pistol Pete was a great player. I haven't denied that, nobody else has denied that. But he was not a perfect player, and therefore he had flaws and the fact that you watched him at the time, which was a long while ago, may have allowed some of the flaws in his game to get glossed over in the nostalgia haze. That's perfectly normal, everyone has that sometimes. Maybe that's not the case, and you're actually totally aware of Pistol Pete's flaws, but then it makes it kind of weird that you'd react so negatively to someone just pointing out that they existed.

Do you not find "a player has flaws" line a bit generic? Could you not put EVERY player in the _____? Seems like a throw away line. BTW- Dozens of games over a decade is what, 5%? I'm not sure that whatever colored glasses matter. I read the actual book from from to back & you have skimmed the cliff notes. So you can put on your Ray Bans & it's not going to change the amount of knowledge you have on Maravich.

[Pelicanidae]

Do you not find "a player has flaws" line a bit generic? Could you not put EVERY player in the _____? Seems like a throw away line. BTW- Dozens of games over a decade is what, 5%? I'm not sure that whatever colored glasses matter. I read the actual book from from to back & you have skimmed the cliff notes. So you can put on your Ray Bans & it's not going to change the amount of knowledge you have on Maravich.

Sure, it's a bit generic, but it's also true, and for some reason when I said it you decided that you didn't like it enough to start this whole discussion, so clearly the fact that it was generic didn't make it any less disagreeable to you.

Of course it's a minority of the games, but that was never my point. Again; totally willing to concede that you've watched more Maravich than I have. That was never a point of dispute.

You were right on one thing though: I have tried way to hard to have this discussion with you when you are clearly committed to taking this arrogant and dismissive tone and I have better things to do with my time than continue engaging with that kind of ridiculousness.

[boardtown]

Pete Maravich is dead.

This very weird and one-sided argument about who gets to hold his jockstrap is killing the Jrue Holiday Appreciation Thread.

I hope Jrue retires as a Pelican.

[Pelicanidae]

Pete Maravich is dead.

This very weird and one-sided argument about who gets to hold his jockstrap is killing the Jrue Holiday Appreciation Thread.

I hope Jrue retires as a Pelican.

The Jrue Holiday Appreciation Thread got killed stone dead within 1 page when people decided it was the ''Jrue Holiday Is Inconsistent and I Want Him Traded'' thread.

[Tinman]

Sure, but again, that's not the issue. People are criticising him as if he's the first option on offense, which he just isn't. He's the third option now that Zion's back, and was still only 2nd while Zion was injured. If there was no other volume scorer on the team and this was all he could do, then sure, he'd be totally disappointing as your number 1 guy. But there are other volume scorers on this team, and he's the third option and he's absolutely, 100%, demonstrably fine at it.

So, you decide that the one sentence response that you are going to use is 1) Generic 2) Throw away & 3) had literally NOtHING to do with the response I had to another poster ! One must wonder--> when you typed it , what was the purpose?

[Pelicanidae]

So, you decide that the one sentence response that you are going to use is 1) Generic 2) Throw away & 3) had literally NOtHING to do with the response I had to another poster ! One must wonder--> when you typed it , what was the purpose?

Not engaging anymore, dude. If you want to have an argument, find someone else. Mute list here we go.

[pelafanatic]

Jrue has had 3 straight seasons with 19-6-4.5 and 1.5 steals. He's as consistent as it comes on a year to year basis. I'm not sure why he gets called out so much for "consistency" when he's not nearly the least consistent player on this team. Players in the NBA are always going to be inconsistent since there's 82 games. If anything, I'd argue that at least we know when Jrue is going to play poorly. It happens at the beginning of every season, and when new players are incorporated into the team. Happened with Boogie and happened with Zion.

When locked in, he's an absolutely dominant defensive player with the ability to punish smaller guards inside on offense.

[Pelicanidae]

Jrue has had 3 straight seasons with 19-6-4.5 and 1.5 steals. He's as consistent as it comes on a year to year basis. I'm not sure why he gets called out so much for "consistency" when he's not nearly the least consistent player on this team. Players in the NBA are always going to be inconsistent since there's 82 games. If anything, I'd argue that at least we know when Jrue is going to play poorly. It happens at the beginning of every season, and when new players are incorporated into the team. Happened with Boogie and happened with Zion.

When locked in, he's an absolutely dominant defensive player with the ability to punish smaller guards inside on offense.

Yeah but Pelafanatic, he sometimes has a good game and then follows up with a less good game, so we should trade him for Gary Harris.

Edit: but yes, in all seriousness, as I posted elsewhere in this thread, Jrue had scored at least 18 points in 28 of his 44 games this year. That's relatively consistent. It tells you that, about 64% of the time, he's going to give you 18 points. That's relatively reliable; you know, coming into an average game, you have a majority chance of Jrue giving you 18 or more. You can expect him to give you his average on most nights.

[donato]

It is interesting that Lonzo is shooting a higher 3pt % than Jrue on a higher volume. Since people are veering so far off-topic I thought I'd throw that in here.


P.S.- Trade Jrue in the offseason. No matter how much it is said how great he is, he's very inconsistent game to game. Ryan Anderson was the same way. And nobody is beating the Gary Harris drum, so stop making things up even if it was brought up once or even twice in an article or in passing.

[As I See It]

While Maravich's personal numbers were awe-inspiring, his teams' numbers were....not so much (really, not at all).

I'm of the age that I saw him play live at the AgCenter at LSU. He would draw double and triple teams night after night, yet I never saw one of his LSU teams compete for an SEC Championship (never mind NCAA Championship).

I saw him snubbed by OSU Hank Iba for the 1968 Olympic Team (despite Maravich being named MVP in each of the games leading up to the team selection). Yep, Maravich was sent packing in favor of Jo Jo White. Legit? Who knows?

I saw him drafted third by the Hawks (after Bob Lanier and Rudy Tomjanovich) despite his gawdy college statistics.

I saw him practically kicked out of Atlanta after teaming with Fellow Hall of Famers: Lou Hudson and Walt Belemy for a couple of seasons (as well as a couple of other NBA All Stars) due to his inability to 'play team ball'.

As soon as the Jazz acquired Maravich in its inaugural season, I became a season ticket holder (Municipal Auditorium, Loyola Field House, and the Superdome). While 'The Pistol' dazzled locals with his flash, he (and the team) also frustrated locals with his crash. I saw him make opponents look stupid and cheered insanely only to end my night, more often than not, with a walk out of the arena...another loss on the team ledger.

I was crushed and felt betrayed when the Mormon owner, Sam Battistone (Sambo), moved the team to Utah in 1979.

I was gratified to see Maravich have a chance to play in the 1980 NBA Eastern Conference Finals for Boston (with the Larry Bird crew) only to lose to the Dr. J-led 76'ers. After that series, he retired from the game.


*****

Had his sport been Tennis, Golf, Bowling, Boxing, Sumo Wrestling, Handball, or any other individual sport, his individual numbers would mean a lot...he arguably could have been called the greatest ever. In a team sport, however, they pale by comparison. Did he excel at high level? Individually he sure did. But, in a team sport, that is only one piece of the puzzle to measure greatness.

[Tinman]

While Maravich's personal numbers were awe-inspiring, his teams' numbers were....not so much (really, not at all).

I'm of the age that I saw him play live at the AgCenter at LSU. He would draw double and triple teams night after night, yet I never saw one of his LSU teams compete for an SEC Championship (never mind NCAA Championship).

I saw him snubbed by OSU Hank Iba for the 1968 Olympic Team (despite Maravich being named MVP in each of the games leading up to the team selection). Yep, Maravich was sent packing in favor of Jo Jo White. Legit? Who knows?

I saw him drafted third by the Hawks (after Bob Lanier and Rudy Tomjanovich) despite his gawdy college statistics.

I saw him practically kicked out of Atlanta after teaming with Fellow Hall of Famers: Lou Hudson and Walt Belemy for a couple of seasons (as well as a couple of other NBA All Stars) due to his inability to 'play team ball'.

As soon as the Jazz acquired Maravich in its inaugural season, I became a season ticket holder (Municipal Auditorium, Loyola Field House, and the Superdome). While 'The Pistol' dazzled locals with his flash, he (and the team) also frustrated locals with his crash. I saw him make opponents look stupid and cheered insanely only to end my night, more often than not, with a walk out of the arena...another loss on the team ledger.

I was crushed and felt betrayed when the Mormon owner, Sam Battistone (Sambo), moved the team to Utah in 1979.

I was gratified to see Maravich have a chance to play in the 1980 NBA Eastern Conference Finals for Boston (with the Larry Bird crew) only to lose to the Dr. J-led 76'ers. After that series, he retired from the game.


*****

Had his sport been Tennis, Golf, Bowling, Boxing, Sumo Wrestling, Handball, or any other individual sport, his individual numbers would mean a lot...he arguably could have been called the greatest ever. In a team sport, however, they pale by comparison. Did he excel at high level? Individually he sure did. But, in a team sport, that is only one piece of the puzzle to measure greatness.

Yeah, that's very narrow minded .
Maravich was drafted by Atlanta, which was terrible.
There was a animosity & the team did NOT like Maravich because he was getting paid 10x's what the existing players were getting & the racial undertones were quite palpable . Maravich was a loner in Atlanta, both on and off the court.
2) Maravich was taken by the Jazz in expansion year to sell tickets.
There may have been 3 players in 4 1/2 years on the Jazz, other than Maravich that could make a 15 man roster today
Ownership was atrocious.
Such a pity that your standard is so skewed and specious.

[pelafanatic]

It is interesting that Lonzo is shooting a higher 3pt % than Jrue on a higher volume. Since people are veering so far off-topic I thought I'd throw that in here.


P.S.- Trade Jrue in the offseason. No matter how much it is said how great he is, he's very inconsistent game to game. Ryan Anderson was the same way. And nobody is beating the Gary Harris drum, so stop making things up even if it was brought up once or even twice in an article or in passing.

There not statistical basis for saying Jrue is inconsistent game to game. The thing most inconsistent about Jrue's game is his surrounding cast. Everyone on this team is still trying to figure out how to play with Zion; but because Jrue is the most likely to be traded since his trade value is so high (due to the fact that he's a very good player), his limitations are exaggerated.

Jrue is the most consistently impactful player on this team. He's the only player right now that has a strong impact even when his shot isn't falling.

[As I See It]

Yeah, that's very narrow minded .
Maravich was drafted by Atlanta, which was terrible.
There was a animosity & the team did NOT like Maravich because he was getting paid 10x's what the existing players were getting & the racial undertones were quite palpable . Maravich was a loner in Atlanta, both on and off the court.
2) Maravich was taken by the Jazz in expansion year to sell tickets.
There may have been 3 players in 4 1/2 years on the Jazz, other than Maravich that could make a 15 man roster today
Ownership was atrocious.
Such a pity that your standard is so skewed and specious.

What is skewed? I only recited facts.

If basketball is a team sport....and a team sport is about team competition...and the teams that Maravich played for were not very competitive, does it not say something about his playing career? (Transitive Reasoning)

Further, I freely admitted that individually he played at a high level...that I was 'dazzled' by his exploits...that a 'cheered insanely' for him. What did I distort?

It's you, my friend, who is closing his eyes to his foibles.

[Tinman]

What is skewed? I only recited facts.

If basketball is a team sport....and a team sport is about team competition...and the teams that Maravich played for were not very competitive, does it not say something about his playing career? (Transitive Reasoning)

Further, I freely admitted that individually he played at a high level...that I was 'dazzled' by his exploits...that a 'cheered insanely' for him. What did I distort?

It's you, my friend, who is closing his eyes to his foibles.

Well, Tiny Archibald ! Ever heard of him? 50 Greatest member. Never played on a winning team in his prime, because his teams sucked. Year 8-11, after his prime, he made the playoffs 4 time- oh wait, he played with Bird, Parish, McHale etc. if you think teammates don't matter, you're nuts. Those 4 playoff years is not what made him a top 50. Your logic is specious.

[Tinman]

What is skewed? I only recited facts.

If basketball is a team sport....and a team sport is about team competition...and the teams that Maravich played for were not very competitive, does it not say something about his playing career? (Transitive Reasoning)

Further, I freely admitted that individually he played at a high level...that I was 'dazzled' by his exploits...that a 'cheered insanely' for him. What did I distort?

It's you, my friend, who is closing his eyes to his foibles.

I see you also fail to recognize that timing & teammates fail to matter, which I find astounding. Let's see--35 yr old Neal Walk, Mel Counts, Bud Stallworth, EC Coleman, Aaron James, Joe C Meriwether, Rich Kelley, Paul Griffin, a 34 year old Gail Goodrich! Other than Goodrich, ever heard of any of those other guys? Thought not! Do some research and tell me where these household names went after they left the Jazz? In the heap of trash in a dumpster.
To base Maravich's impact on the NBA by the JV players that were on his team is straight up SILLY.

[donato]

There not statistical basis for saying Jrue is inconsistent game to game. The thing most inconsistent about Jrue's game is his surrounding cast. Everyone on this team is still trying to figure out how to play with Zion; but because Jrue is the most likely to be traded since his trade value is so high (due to the fact that he's a very good player), his limitations are exaggerated.

Jrue is the most consistently impactful player on this team. He's the only player right now that has a strong impact even when his shot isn't falling.

Look at his game logs. It doesn't look consistent at all to me. His shooting %'s are all over the place. Not to mention his choke jobs late in games. His "strong impact" is keeping us from winning some games. I agree other times he is good.

[As I See It]

I see you also fail to recognize that timing & teammates fail to matter, which I find astounding. Let's see--35 yr old Neal Walk, Mel Counts, Bud Stallworth, EC Coleman, Aaron James, Joe C Meriwether, Rich Kelley, Paul Griffin, a 34 year old Gail Goodrich! Other than Goodrich, ever heard of any of those other guys? Thought not! Do some research and tell me where these household names went after they left the Jazz? In the heap of trash in a dumpster.
To base Maravich's impact on the NBA by the JV players that were on his team is straight up SILLY.

Tin, I don't have to do the research, I was there. For Truck Robinson, Spencer Heywood, Hall of Famer Walt Belemy, and Nate Williams, too. I was there for Apple Sanders, Fig Newton, Danny Hester and Rich Hickman, too.

He was to pro basketball as was Dan Marino to pro football. No more....no less.

[Tinman]

Tin, I don't have to do the research, I was there. For Truck Robinson, Spencer Heywood, Hall of Famer Walt Belemy, and Nate Williams, too. I was there for Apple Sanders, Fig Newton, Danny Hester and Rich Hickman, too.

He was to pro basketball as was Dan Marino to pro football. No more....no less.

Walt Bellamy! Did you really use Walt Bellamy? He was a 36 yr old cripple w/ the Jazz. And even with Atlanta, he was already old. Trivia: How many GAME/games dos Bellamy play with The Jazz? Hint: Less than 2.
Since Hayward pretty much didn't play w/ Maravich, less than a 1/2 season & after his knee blew out, (Im assuming you knew that already, right), there would be no need to mention his name. And being that Teuck Robinson played w/ Maravich for a little over 3 months (Maravich went out with blown out knee until mid next season w/ a 20lb brace on his knee )(but I assume you know that also), there would be no need to mention Truck either, right!
Not sure why you are using a 36 yr old Bellamy & 2 guys that NEVER played w/ Maravich (Robinson 3 months & some change) to prove a point . Credibility is kinda shaky now. Why would you do that?
I assumed that you were aware that those guys didn't play w/ Maravich or were almost on SOcial Security when they did!

[As I See It]

Walt Bellamy! Did you really use Walt Bellamy? He was a 36 yr old cripple w/ the Jazz. And even with Atlanta, he was already old. Trivia: How many GAME/games dos Bellamy play with The Jazz? Hint: Less than 2.
Since Hayward pretty much didn't play w/ Maravich, less than a 1/2 season & after his knee blew out, (Im assuming you knew that already, right), there would be no need to mention his name. And being that Teuck Robinson played w/ Maravich for a little over 3 months (Maravich went out with blown out knee until mid next season w/ a 20lb brace on his knee )(but I assume you know that also), there would be no need to mention Truck either, right!
Not sure why you are using a 36 yr old Bellamy & 2 guys that NEVER played w/ Maravich (Robinson 3 months & some change) to prove a point . Credibility is kinda shaky now. Why would you do that?
I assumed that you were aware that those guys didn't play w/ Maravich or were almost on SOcial Security when they did!

You worship those amazing numbers (and many do). I acknowledge those amazing numbers for what they are....empty. Bear in mind that by no means am I'm taking anything away from the considerable talent and flair of 'The Pistol'. Instead, I am truthfully acknowledging his inability to parlay it into anything productive (whether it be because of things inside his control or otherwise).

My God, Tin, the man is justifiably 'busted' in Springfield...what more do you want me to say?

Just as an aside, whose career would you rather have: Dan Marino's or Terry Bradshaw's?

[Tinman]

You worship those amazing numbers (and many do). I acknowledge those amazing numbers for what they are....empty. Bear in mind that by no means am I'm taking anything away from the considerable talent and flair of 'The Pistol'. Instead, I am truthfully acknowledging his inability to parlay it into anything productive (whether it be because of things inside his control or otherwise).

My God, Tin, the man is justifiably 'busted' in Springfield...what more do you want me to say?

Just an aside, whose career would you rather have: Dan Marino's or Terry Bradshaw's?

Just as an aside - Who is considered the better QB unanimously? That would be Marino- & when the question is asked (Why did Marino lose) The answer is never anything negative about Marino (& rightfully so). The answer is always- He didn't have enough talent around him (They couldn't/didn't run the ball) . Enter Maravich.
BTW, before Maravich went to the garbage expansion Jazz, he made the playoffs 3 straight years with Atlanta. Averaged 26 PPG.

[As I See It]

Just as an aside - Who is considered the better QB unanimously? That would be Marino- & when the question is asked (Why did Marino lose) The answer is never anything negative about Marino (& rightfully so). The answer is always- He didn't have enough talent around him (They couldn't/didn't run the ball) . Enter Maravich.
BTW, before Maravich went to the garbage expansion Jazz, he made the playoffs 3 straight years with Atlanta. Averaged 26 PPG.

You answered with a question; that's sad.

But here's another one for you just for fun. Drew's career or Brady's?