Jrue Holiday Appreciation Thread

[pr1840]

Sure, but again, that's not the issue. People are criticising him as if he's the first option on offense, which he just isn't. He's the third option now that Zion's back, and was still only 2nd while Zion was injured. If there was no other volume scorer on the team and this was all he could do, then sure, he'd be totally disappointing as your number 1 guy. But there are other volume scorers on this team, and he's the third option and he's absolutely, 100%, demonstrably fine at it.

You say that he’s the third option, but the reality is that far too often the ball has been in Jrue’s hands in crunch time and he has failed to deliver. The great players in this league step up their game in crunch time. Jrue makes some great defensive plays in crunch time, but far too many critical possessions end with lackadaisical turnovers and blown layups by Jrue. If you’ve watched enough Pelicans games the past 5+ years, you would know exactly what I and others here are saying.

[Pelicanidae]

You say that he’s the third option, but the reality is that far too often the ball has been in Jrue’s hands in crunch time and he has failed to deliver. The great players in this league step up their game in crunch time. Jrue makes some great defensive plays in crunch time, but far too many critical possessions end with lackadaisical turnovers and blown layups by Jrue. If you’ve watched enough Pelicans games the past 5+ years, you would know exactly what I and others here are saying.

I've watched every single Pelicans game in the last 5 years

I'm not saying Jrue doesn't have flaws. He does. If he had no flaws he'd be the MVP and DPOY front runner and we'd be a much better team. Nobody denies that Jrue shouldn't have the ball in his hands as the primary creator. Pelicans fans, on this board and elsewhere, have been saying as much for the last several years. As much as Rondo and Payton were not great players, they had a value beyond themselves because they allowed Jrue to play much more off the ball on offense and to run the offense at times in the half-court, which diminished his responsibility.

This year, we do not have a PG who is willing and able to do that. The best we have is Lonzo, who is not a threat in the half-court the vast majority of the time. Which puts all of that pressure back on Jrue to create and handle, and lo and behold, he's not great at it; which we all knew years ago, and which is why his best 2 years came when he was next to a real point guard. I have no idea why it is that I seem to be the only person who acknowledges this, rather than just deciding that Jrue is some kind of universal chump.

[JJackisangry]

Sure, but again, that's not the issue. People are criticising him as if he's the first option on offense, which he just isn't. He's the third option now that Zion's back, and was still only 2nd while Zion was injured. If there was no other volume scorer on the team and this was all he could do, then sure, he'd be totally disappointing as your number 1 guy. But there are other volume scorers on this team, and he's the third option and he's absolutely, 100%, demonstrably fine at it.

He has a lot of responsibility in this side on the ball though because of the lack of spacing and lead guard play atm. Lonzo is still learning on the job and Ingram can function as a point forward, but people sag off of Zion because of his lack of willingness/ability to shoot. He is certainly not the best fit atm and I’d find it hard to argue otherwise until we get more spacing and Lonzo improves in all areas or we get a ready lead guard.

[smcgull]

I am surprised he did not want to go to a contending team, but I am happy he wants to stay for now.

[RobertM320]

And here we have people abusing generalized season average stats to prove how "good" he has been.

When most of us recognize that in too many big games he seems to be at his worst. And his variance of performance is just too damn wide. He is literally feast or famine.

Thats why in my industry we focus on medians, not averages.

His consistency is the issue. And even when he might have a good game, he will still dribble the ball off his foot, throw it out of bounds, or get the ball stolen when the team needs a good possession late in a game. This has happened far too often than it should.

This is the problem and frankly it is just the player Jrue is. Fans in Philly were all saying the same things.

In the NBA median = mediocre.

As far as getting rid of Jrue due to lack of consistency, I guess you're also the type that would tell the Yankees to get rid of Aaron Judge because he strikes out too much.

[Sleeper]

In the NBA median = mediocre.

As far as getting rid of Jrue due to lack of consistency, I guess you're also the type that would tell the Yankees to get rid of Aaron Judge because he strikes out too much.

Lol at comparing Jrue to Judge. Jrue has lost games all by himself by sloppy passing and bad shot selection. Don’t need that with so many young players on the team, especially on a consistent basis. He has a lot of talent but until i see otherwise; he seems to be a free spirit type who picks and chooses when he goes all in on that talent. Like for instance playing against his Brother last night.


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[djrnno]

Jrue for the last 2 years: top 20 player in the NBA

Jrue this year: clearly taken a step back, but still a top 50 player

Half the people on this board: ''Jrue is a bad player the majority of the time, we should definitely trade him, probably for some combination of mediocre players and terrible picks.''

I've seen people saying he has more low scoring games than high ones the fact is, he's averaging 20. If you're having far more low scoring games than high ones, you don't average 20.

He's played in 44 games so far this year. He's scored at least 18 points in 28 of them. That's about 64% of his games, well over half. You listen to half the people on this board, you'd think he was averaging 10 points a game on 39% TS% or something.

Jrue is clearly the best defender on our team. Only really Favors comes close. Very arguably our best halfcourt playmaker as well. If not the best, he's unquestionably top 3.

Nobody will deny that Jrue this year is not as good as Jrue last year. But the hate he's received from much of the fanbase is kind of ridiculous.

Measuring Jrue with stats is the most misleading thing you can do , he could have 35pts 10 steals and have 2 straight TO's and miss 2 game winning FT's or not call a TO when he can't get an inbound pass and we lose the game . The ONLY thing you can ever count on with JH is good to great D . And you're putting words in people's mouths saying we are calling JH garbage , no one has. For me at this time on this team I'd rather have a consistently good to very good player than than one that is either crisis or carnival

[Pelicanidae]

Measuring Jrue with stats is the most misleading thing you can do , he could have 35pts 10 steals and have 2 straight TO's and miss 2 game winning FT's or not call a TO when he can't get an inbound pass and we lose the game . The ONLY thing you can ever count on with JH is good to great D . And you're putting words in people's mouths saying we are calling JH garbage , no one has. For me at this time on this team I'd rather have a consistently good to very good player than than one that is either crisis or carnival

Yeah, this is what I mean by ridiculous standards and undue blame.

If anyone ever wonders what I mean by people judging Jrue as if he was supposed to be our #1 guy, just read this sentence in bold over again.

We are imagining a hypothetical game where Jrue has 35 points and 10 steals that was still somehow within 2 points in the final moments, and we're blaming him for losing it.

[djrnno]

Yeah, this is what I mean by ridiculous standards and undue blame.

If anyone ever wonders what I mean by people judging Jrue as if he was supposed to be our #1 guy, just read this sentence in bold over again.

We are imagining a hypothetical game where Jrue has 35 points and 10 steals that was still somehow within 2 points in the final moments, and we're blaming him for losing it.

You are missing the point , It's not what you do to get there it's how you finish If a race horse was 5 lengths ahead and then stopped running he still has lost. It's like having a big lead and blowing it . JH has done some bonehead things to lose games all by himself and some have come in games that he was not on fire. Like i said Consistency,Consistency,Consistency and he has been far from it . Nothing is more frustrating to fans than his roller coaster ride

[As I See It]

You are missing the point , It's not what you do to get there it's how you finish If a race horse was 5 lengths ahead and then stopped running he still has lost. It's like having a big lead and blowing it . JH has done some bonehead things to lose games all by himself and some have come in games that he was not on fire. Like i said Consistency,Consistency,Consistency and he has been far from it . Nothing is more frustrating to fans than his roller coaster ride

The guy in your avatar was kind'a like that, too. He could score 45 a night (and did), but in crunch time, more often than not, he was an 'also ran' throughout his career. Greatness is defined not by your personal numbers, but by your team's numbers.

[djrnno]

The guy in your avatar was kind'a like that, too. He could score 45 a night (and did), but in crunch time, more often than not, he was an 'also ran' throughout his career. Greatness is defined not by your personal numbers, but by your team's numbers.

If you are comparing Pete to JH then your delusional. JH in his wildest dreams could not be the offensive weapon Pete was , Pete was people that changed basketball. He was ALWAYS on BAD teams . Only thing JH can do that Pete couldn't was play D . Pete's BB IQ was off the charts, JH has many bonehead moments

[new city champ]

No way I’m getting into a side debate on “Pistol” Pete and I don’t even want to scrap about Jrue who is a high value NBA player and a great asset to the Pels. He is, however, a shooting guard who can’t shoot that well and that, along with his age and contract, make him a less than ideal fit going forward. What the Pels need at SG is 3rd option who spaces the floor and shoots 40+% from the arc and 80+% from the line—basically a younger, bigger J.J. Redick.

Jrue is a good player and when you see him close a game like he did last night against the Pacers going 6-6 from the line and draining contested 3-pointers, you see a player you can start to dream on, a guy who could be a Steve Nash or league MVP candidate as Griff touted him coming into the season. But there is an old expression that a person is not who they were the last time you saw them; they’re who they have been all along. It’s unrealistic to expect Holiday to turn into a knockdown shooter or clutch closer at this stage of his career. He is who he has been all along—a top notch defender, a crafty scorer and a mediocre (by league standards) outside shooter and foul shooter. For the Pels to reach their full potential, you’ll need to trade out Holiday’s skill set for one that compliments our young core a little better.

[Pelicanidae]

You are missing the point , It's not what you do to get there it's how you finish If a race horse was 5 lengths ahead and then stopped running he still has lost. It's like having a big lead and blowing it . JH has done some bonehead things to lose games all by himself and some have come in games that he was not on fire. Like i said Consistency,Consistency,Consistency and he has been far from it . Nothing is more frustrating to fans than his roller coaster ride

Actually, as a fan, several things are more frustrating. One of those things is the absolute disingenuousness with which most people approach his game and his impact.

[Tinman]

The guy in your avatar was kind'a like that, too. He could score 45 a night (and did), but in crunch time, more often than not, he was an 'also ran' throughout his career. Greatness is defined not by your personal numbers, but by your team's numbers.

This statement makes everything else that you ever say on this forum irrelevant . This, quite possibly is the most ill informed statement ever uttered on this forum.
Pete Maravich is classified in the "TOP 50 players of all time", voted on by NBA players, coaches et al.
Good Lord !

[Pelicanidae]

This statement makes everything else that you ever say on this forum irrelevant . This, quite possibly is the most ill informed statement ever uttered on this forum.
Pete Maravich is classified in the "TOP 50 players of all time", voted on by NBA players, coaches et al.
Good Lord !

I fairness, that doesn't mean he was flawless. Pistol Pete was an all time great. He also had flaws. Both are true.

[Tinman]

I fairness, that doesn't mean he was flawless. Pistol Pete was an all time great. He also had flaws. Both are true.

Ok, a few things here- 1) I followed Maravich through LSU (35 miles from my home) (the GREATEST college Scorer ever). I'm certain that you never watched a Maravich game.
2) Followed him when he was with the Hawks (which was a horrible situation for Maravich- Team (player) dynamics. Averaged 26 PPG.
3) Then was sent to an expansion Jazz to sell tickets (with a HORRIBLE team) for 4 1/2 yrs.
4) The best ball handler in NBA. Until he blew his knee out on a between the legs half court pass.
5) Averaged 27ppg on 44.1% shooting w/ no 3pt line.
6) His only fault was disengagement due to mental demons.
7) o yeah, he is in the Hall of Fame.
8) When engaged, he was the best COMBO (ball handler & shooter) on the court.
Jrue Holiday has played with some pretty good players.
Maravich played with guys that couldn't make an NBA squad today, while he was in New Orleans.

[PELICANSFAN]

The guy in your avatar was kind'a like that, too. He could score 45 a night (and did), but in crunch time, more often than not, he was an 'also ran' throughout his career. Greatness is defined not by your personal numbers, but by your team's numbers.

More often than not? Did you ever watch him play? To call Maravich an also-ran is an absolute joke. Maravich was the entire team. The Jazz never had a supporting cast. The closest thing was Truck Robinson.

[Tinman]

More often than not? Did you ever watch him play? To call Maravich an also-ran is an absolute joke. Maravich was the entire team. The Jazz never had a supporting cast. The closest thing was Truck Robinson.

Yes, that ^^^ x's 20 !

[Tinman]

More often than not? Did you ever watch him play? To call Maravich an also-ran is an absolute joke. Maravich was the entire team. The Jazz never had a supporting cast. The closest thing was Truck Robinson.

Although, I do believe that Nate Williams could actually be a rotational player in today's NBA. He was a legit scorer.

[Pelicanidae]

Ok, a few things here- 1) I followed Maravich through LSU (35 miles from my home) (the GREATEST college Scorer ever). I'm certain that you never watched a Maravich game.

Literally everything you said after this became void. I'm up for arguments and debates, everyone on the board knows that, but I'm not going to get into a spat with someone who makes this argument. I have watched Maravich play. Do yourself a favour and maybe don't assume that the only way someone could disagree with you is if they are arguing from a position of complete ignorance.

Pistol Pete was arguably a better college player than an NBA player, so yeah I'd totally agree that he was the greatest college scorer ever. If not the greatest, then I'm not really sure who would be better.

The fact is that all I said was the totally innocuous statement ''he also had flaws'' and you decided to list a bunch of stuff that I already knew to try and discredit me. So am I to assume that you think Pistol Pete didn't have any flaws, and that he was a perfect player? Because that's a ridiculously, scorching hot take.

[Tinman]

Literally everything you said after this became void. I'm up for arguments and debates, everyone on the board knows that, but I'm not going to get into a spat with someone who makes this argument. I have watched Maravich play. Do yourself a favour and maybe don't assume that the only way someone could disagree with you is if they are arguing from a position of complete ignorance.

Pistol Pete was arguably a better college player than an NBA player, so yeah I'd totally agree that he was the greatest college scorer ever. If not the greatest, then I'm not really sure who would be better.

The fact is that all I said was the totally innocuous statement ''he also had flaws'' and you decided to list a bunch of stuff that I already knew to try and discredit me. So am I to assume that you think Pistol Pete didn't have any flaws, and that he was a perfect player? Because that's a ridiculously, scorching hot take.

I did NOT say - (watched him play) -I said (watch a game) . Big difference. I know you aren't old enough to have ever watched him play a live game of basketball.
I'm not sure if you conflated on purpose or just misunderstood .
So, tell me- what Pete Maravich game have you watched ?
Your "complete ignorance" point is opinion.
One would argue that ignorance has no gradation.
I didn't assume anything. I know, by your age, that you never watched Matavich play an entire game.

[Tinman]

Literally everything you said after this became void. I'm up for arguments and debates, everyone on the board knows that, but I'm not going to get into a spat with someone who makes this argument. I have watched Maravich play. Do yourself a favour and maybe don't assume that the only way someone could disagree with you is if they are arguing from a position of complete ignorance.

Pistol Pete was arguably a better college player than an NBA player, so yeah I'd totally agree that he was the greatest college scorer ever. If not the greatest, then I'm not really sure who would be better.

The fact is that all I said was the totally innocuous statement ''he also had flaws'' and you decided to list a bunch of stuff that I already knew to try and discredit me. So am I to assume that you think Pistol Pete didn't have any flaws, and that he was a perfect player? Because that's a ridiculously, scorching hot take.

Your innocuous statement was basically a non sequitur w/in the response I had made.
Note: There is Nothing that I stated about Maravich that you can dispute based on what knowledge you have of him.
My statement, too, was innocuous.
I said that you had never watched Maravich game.
It became a sore point when you to offense to something I NEVER said. I never said that you didn't see him play.

[Silver Nail]

Your innocuous statement was basically a non sequitur w/in the response I had made.
Note: There is Nothing that I stated about Maravich that you can dispute based on what knowledge you have of him.
My statement, too, was innocuous.
I said that you had never watched Maravich game.
It became a sore point when you to offense to something I NEVER said. I never said that you didn't see him play.

I saw him play and he did have one very notable flaw. His floppy socks!!!!!

[Tinman]

I saw him play and he did have one very notable flaw. His floppy socks!!!!!

Lol Well, Touché ! Idk though- I saw plenty of floppy socks at NORD gyms around this city !

[Pelicanidae]

I did NOT say - (watched him play) -I said (watch a game) . Big difference. I know you aren't old enough to have ever watched him play a live game of basketball.
I'm not sure if you conflated on purpose or just misunderstood .
So, tell me- what Pete Maravich game have you watched ?
Your "complete ignorance" point is opinion.
One would argue that ignorance has no gradation.
I didn't assume anything. I know, by your age, that you never watched Matavich play an entire game.

You do know that because we live in the age of the Internet, I can watch full games that happened before I was born? Pretty easily. Look, I'll show you:







Just for a couple of examples.

I fully concede that I haven't watched as much Pistol Pete as you probably have (although it's worth nothing that I've also probably watched these games more recently than you have, and therefore might have less of a rose-tinted-glasses view on them), but that's very different from ''you never watched Maravich play an entire game.''