Trading Jrue?

[Pelicanidae]

Just figured I'd drop this here for anyone who hasn't seen it. It's from the latest In The N.O. Pod, where Shamit and Mason are talking about the Jrue-to-Denver-trade. The trade they're discussing is the one that was floated in the media: Gary Harris + Malik Beasley + Unprotected 1st. MPJ off limits.

Shamit: ''I mean, I feel like if I want unprotected picks I'd want the pick the year after Jrue's contract expires. So, like, the 2022 unprotected first round pick. That's what I'd be aiming for, if that's what I wanted. But my larger problem with that trade is just the players. The players are just not that good. I think Gary Harris is aggressively mediocre and I really, I genuinely do not think he's producing at a higher level than E'twaun Moore right now.''

Mason: ''Okay.''

Shamit: ''He is 6 foot 3, 6 foot 4, he was supposed to be a good shooter but he's had one good shooting year, one above average shooting year, and then his last two years he's shot a combined 32% from 3. This year he's averaging 10 points a game, 2.8 rebounds, 2.1 assists. I mean like, your defense has to be all world for me to be like okay that's a guy I wanna take a chance on.''

Mason: ''Sounds like Solomon Hill, man.''

Shamit: ''He's 25 years old. Like, that's not old but he's not a young prospect anymore. So that's Gary Harris. Then you have Malik Beasley who is buried in their rotation so we don't know if he's really good or not because he doesn't get any consistent minutes, he can score the ball but again he doesn't really contribute when it comes to rebounding, he doesn't really assist, um, I don't expect his defense to be phenomenal. He's a decent shooter from 3, and he is due for a payday. He's in the last year of a $2.7m contract and then he's an RFA. So what do you do with this? So then you have Gary Harris, Malik Beasley, and on your roster you have E'twaun Moore, which he's here now, Josh Hart, JJ Redick, Nickeil Alexander-Walker, Frank Jackson... and then Didi waiting in the wings, you have like 7 shooting guards. That are all about 6'4, and they all do the same thing. That would be a terrible trade. Unless I could combine them into like, one Bradley Beal -''

Mason: ''There it is [laughs]''

Shamit: ''Why would I wanna do this trade? Those picks aren't going to do anything for me. The only reason you make that trade is if someone else either values your current players or these players and you're flipping them for players of need because when you move Jrue Holiday, you're moving your singular best perimeter defender. Your only guy who is checking the opponents best player defensively; I don't wanna hear it about Lonzo Ball, he's not picking up those players. He's gotten better defensively, but it's not his game to guard 1-4 and shut them down. Ingram, we've talked about it, I'd say he's one of the lower defensive players for his position, he's not very good on that end, and you don't want him defending a lot of those players if he's going to be doing so much on the other end. Zion Williamson is a rookie and is clearly out of position all the time, you can't expect him to be that guy. Jrue's your only perimeter defender.

So you replace him with a bunch of 6'4 guys and like, Jrue's 6'4 but unlike other 6'4 guys he can play bigger than his size, and then you're removing the only guy on the roster that is able and willing to consistently run a pick and roll. I know Brandon Ingram has gotten a lot better at it and he's gotten really good at scoring out of it, but when it comes to setting the table for others out of it, there still isn't a guy on Jrue's level on this team yet. So you're replacing 2 important skillsets, with skillsets you already have on the roster. What is the difference between Gary Harris and Josh Hart right now? Hart is averaging 10.6 points, the same as Gary Harris. He's shooting better from 3. He's averaging 6 rebounds per game. He's playing less minutes.''

Mason: ''Yeah, I was going to say that the per 36 minutes [for Hart] go up even further from there.''

Shamit: ''Yeah so you already have Gary Harris on your roster. His name is Josh Hart.''

Mason: ''Yeah I mean... that's a... not to say that Gary Harris isn't an all around better player than Josh Hart, but that's certainly doing a disservice to Josh Hart in certain areas of Hart's game. Whether that's overall hustle, rebounding -''

Shamit: ''You have hustle, you have rebounding, you have tenacity in transition, I mean he's probably the best transition finisher outside of Zion on this team. I would rather give all those minutes to Hart than invest in Gary Harris.''

This is just a segment. Obviously I recommend listening to the entire pod because it's great. But there's just a segment directly relevant to this thread. They also talk about other trade possibilities, and other players [Favors, Moore, Redick, for example] so it's definitely a good listen. But I figured this was a really good breakdown of a probable Denver offer.

[Darkhorse985]

I agree 100% that I wouldn’t trade Jrue for Harris, Beasley, and a 1st. With Denver, it’s either MPJ or no trade.

[pr1840]

I agree 100% that I wouldn’t trade Jrue for Harris, Beasley, and a 1st. With Denver, it’s either MPJ or no trade.

Agree that’s not enough of a return. But whenever the trade happens I will not be sorry to see him go. Tonight was another nationally televised game against a good team and another garbage game from Jrue. You think at some point he would figure out that he’s not a great 3 point shooter and stop taking the low percentage step backs threes. Nope - he just keeps chucking. Low IQ player.

[Pelicanidae]

The trade they discuss from the Heat is slightly more intriguing for Jrue, although I'm still not super hot on it.

They start by assuming that Bam is a no-go. Which is fair. Bam is probably off limits for Miami; understandably, he's been fantastic. Would love to get him, but Heat are not gonna move him for anything shy of a superstar, it seems.

They also point out that the Heat do not have the ability to trade any of their own picks until like, 2025. So they can't sweeten the pot with picks.

As a result, they start with Herro being mandatory. Absolutely required; there can be no Heat trade, for Shamit and Mason, without Tyler Herro. I think that's fair. Then, they take a look through the Heat roster at who they would want and they do some discussion, and they basically come up with something like this.

Heat get: Jrue Holiday
Pels get: Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson, Justise Winslow

That's the core of the trade, and obviously then you shuffle stuff around to make salaries work. I think Heat would need to add some more dead salary which would mean the Pels would probably have to send someone else out with Jrue (Frank?) to keep roster spaces together, but whatever, you get the idea.

Now, I'm not super hot on this move but I like it a lot more than the Denver proposal. My concern is that you don't really have a half-court point guard on the roster, really at all, after this. Shamit points out that of course, you'd just give the ball more to Ingram and Zion, which is fair, but I do still think we'd see a drop off in the quality of our half-court offense at least in the short term.

Defensively, there's a drop off. Neither Herro nor Robinson are great defenders, but Winslow is pretty good on that end; the concern there is health. Winslow's had a ton of injury issues. That said, we do have Aaron Nelson so at some point you have to either put faith in him or not.

The big upside, which Shamit and Mason both agree would be great, is the added shooting. Herro shoots 39% from 3 on 5.5 attempts a game and is an 84% FT shooter. Robinson shoots 44% from 3 on 7.7 attempts per game, and is an 88.1% FT shooter. They would instantly provide a ton of spacing and reliable FT shooting, both things we would currently appreciate. Especially the FTs.

I still don't love it, because of Winslow's injury history that has absolutely plagued him, along with the loss of our best perimeter defender, but I do prefer it to the Denver deal.

[PELICANSFAN]

The trade they discuss from the Heat is slightly more intriguing for Jrue, although I'm still not super hot on it.

They start by assuming that Bam is a no-go. Which is fair. Bam is probably off limits for Miami; understandably, he's been fantastic. Would love to get him, but Heat are not gonna move him for anything shy of a superstar, it seems.

They also point out that the Heat do not have the ability to trade any of their own picks until like, 2025. So they can't sweeten the pot with picks.

As a result, they start with Herro being mandatory. Absolutely required; there can be no Heat trade, for Shamit and Mason, without Tyler Herro. I think that's fair. Then, they take a look through the Heat roster at who they would want and they do some discussion, and they basically come up with something like this.

Heat get: Jrue Holiday
Pels get: Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson, Justise Winslow

That's the core of the trade, and obviously then you shuffle stuff around to make salaries work. I think Heat would need to add some more dead salary which would mean the Pels would probably have to send someone else out with Jrue (Frank?) to keep roster spaces together, but whatever, you get the idea.

Now, I'm not super hot on this move but I like it a lot more than the Denver proposal. My concern is that you don't really have a half-court point guard on the roster, really at all, after this. Shamit points out that of course, you'd just give the ball more to Ingram and Zion, which is fair, but I do still think we'd see a drop off in the quality of our half-court offense at least in the short term.

Defensively, there's a drop off. Neither Herro nor Robinson are great defenders, but Winslow is pretty good on that end; the concern there is health. Winslow's had a ton of injury issues. That said, we do have Aaron Nelson so at some point you have to either put faith in him or not.

The big upside, which Shamit and Mason both agree would be great, is the added shooting. Herro shoots 39% from 3 on 5.5 attempts a game and is an 84% FT shooter. Robinson shoots 44% from 3 on 7.7 attempts per game, and is an 88.1% FT shooter. They would instantly provide a ton of spacing and reliable FT shooting, both things we would currently appreciate. Especially the FTs.

I still don't love it, because of Winslow's injury history that has absolutely plagued him, along with the loss of our best perimeter defender, but I do prefer it to the Denver deal.

Miami trade not bad if the feeling is Jrue is not part of our long-term future. The other guys from Miami fit the timeline of our core. However, if we think Jrue could sign after next year, I may pass.

[Pelicanidae]

Miami trade not bad if the feeling is Jrue is not part of our long-term future. The other guys from Miami fit the timeline of our core. However, if we think Jrue could sign after next year, I may pass.

I agree with that. If you're determined to trade Jrue because you just do not wanna resign him, or because you have internal indications that he's going to opt out/doesn't want to stay, then the Heat move wouldn't be too bad. But if given the choice, I would also probably stand pat on it. If Miami could add draft compensation and take some of our strays off our hands, guys like Frank, then that might change things but as it stands they can't.

[Pelifan]

The trade they discuss from the Heat is slightly more intriguing for Jrue, although I'm still not super hot on it.

They start by assuming that Bam is a no-go. Which is fair. Bam is probably off limits for Miami; understandably, he's been fantastic. Would love to get him, but Heat are not gonna move him for anything shy of a superstar, it seems.

They also point out that the Heat do not have the ability to trade any of their own picks until like, 2025. So they can't sweeten the pot with picks.

As a result, they start with Herro being mandatory. Absolutely required; there can be no Heat trade, for Shamit and Mason, without Tyler Herro. I think that's fair. Then, they take a look through the Heat roster at who they would want and they do some discussion, and they basically come up with something like this.

Heat get: Jrue Holiday
Pels get: Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson, Justise Winslow

That's the core of the trade, and obviously then you shuffle stuff around to make salaries work. I think Heat would need to add some more dead salary which would mean the Pels would probably have to send someone else out with Jrue (Frank?) to keep roster spaces together, but whatever, you get the idea.

Now, I'm not super hot on this move but I like it a lot more than the Denver proposal. My concern is that you don't really have a half-court point guard on the roster, really at all, after this. Shamit points out that of course, you'd just give the ball more to Ingram and Zion, which is fair, but I do still think we'd see a drop off in the quality of our half-court offense at least in the short term.

Defensively, there's a drop off. Neither Herro nor Robinson are great defenders, but Winslow is pretty good on that end; the concern there is health. Winslow's had a ton of injury issues. That said, we do have Aaron Nelson so at some point you have to either put faith in him or not.

The big upside, which Shamit and Mason both agree would be great, is the added shooting. Herro shoots 39% from 3 on 5.5 attempts a game and is an 84% FT shooter. Robinson shoots 44% from 3 on 7.7 attempts per game, and is an 88.1% FT shooter. They would instantly provide a ton of spacing and reliable FT shooting, both things we would currently appreciate. Especially the FTs.

I still don't love it, because of Winslow's injury history that has absolutely plagued him, along with the loss of our best perimeter defender, but I do prefer it to the Denver deal.

I really doubt the Pels could swing Duncan Robinson in addition to Herro and that the Heat would be interested, Butler is having a terrible year from 3 for them. No way Miami would trade their 2 best shooters for a mediocre shooter like Holiday.

Realistically I think we'd have to take on Waiters or James Johnson to get Herro and Winslow. and I'm still not sure Miami would be interested.

Also Winslow is pretty much as much a point as Holiday is by the way.

[Pelicanidae]

I really doubt the Pels could swing Duncan Robinson in addition to Herro and that the Heat would be interested, Butler is having a terrible year from 3 for them. No way Miami would trade their 2 best shooters for a mediocre shooter like Holiday.

Realistically I think we'd have to take on Waiters or James Johnson to get Herro and Winslow. and I'm still not sure Miami would be interested.

Also Winslow is pretty much as much a point as Holiday is by the way.

Nah, Winslow is a decent distributor but he's not a true point.

The thing is, Jrue is a good player. I know that half of this board seems to think otherwise, but he's really good at basketball. He's having a bad year, and he's still putting up 20/4/6 with all-league defense. That has value.

If the Heat want him, they will have to give up assets. Just Herro isn't enough. They're obviously not giving up Bam. Winslow is good but he hasn't played more than 70 games in 4 years: hell, he's injured right now. They have 0 draft compensation to add. So if they want him, they add Robinson. If they don't want to add Robinson then that's fine; they just don't get him.

We'd already have to take on a bad deal just to make the salaries work, so we'd be doing Miami two favours: firstly, we're giving them the best player in the deal, and secondly, we're taking bad long term salary off their hands (Waiters, for example). In exchange for that, they had to give up positive assets. If they don't like it, that's cool. Nobody's forcing them to make a trade.

[da ThRONe]

I just don't understand the game plan. Williamson is 19 Ingram is 22 that's the foreseeable nucleus of this team. Everyone that should be seen as a long term(at least 4 seasons from now) candidates should fit them in play style and age. Jrue is 29 and his playstyle will force Ingram to be a 3 and Williamson to play the 4. This doesn't even get Holiday inability to play well in the clutch and all his many turnovers.

Trading Holiday IMO should be a no brainer.

[MichaelMcNamara]

I just don't understand the game plan. Williamson is 19 Ingram is 22 that's the foreseeable nucleus of this team. Everyone that should be seen as a long term(at least 4 seasons from now) candidates should fit them in play style and age. Jrue is 29 and his playstyle will force Ingram to be a 3 and Williamson to play the 4. This doesn't even get Holiday inability to play well in the clutch and all his many turnovers.

Trading Holiday IMO should be a no brainer.

It is a no brainer. The debate you guys should be having is not IF, it's WHEN.

Let me paint a picture for you:

Imagine now means Denver vs Miami and some lukewarm bids.

Imagine this summer, Giannis signs his extension. 29 teams just failed to win the title and need some talent. The 2020 FA class and Draft suck. Now, 2021 doesn't look so good because Giannis aint leaving and none of the other guys look primed to move. Lets also imagine Washington stays stubborn and won't move Beal yet. Now, Holiday is the bell of the ball and there are 6-10 teams all bidding, knowing that they might not have a shot at any top tier guys any time soon.

So, again, you guys are debating the wrong thing. The debate is: Would we get more Thursday or more this summer? And I think its incredibly likely you can get more this summer. I certainly don't think its very likely you could get less

[PELICANSFAN]

And I think its incredibly likely you can get more this summer. I certainly don't think its very likely you could get less

That is likely the case. The only way it is better to do a trade now is if someone gets desperate for a run and overpays.

[da ThRONe]

It is a no brainer. The debate you guys should be having is not IF, it's WHEN.

Let me paint a picture for you:

Imagine now means Denver vs Miami and some lukewarm bids.

Imagine this summer, Giannis signs his extension. 29 teams just failed to win the title and need some talent. The 2020 FA class and Draft suck. Now, 2021 doesn't look so good because Giannis aint leaving and none of the other guys look primed to move. Lets also imagine Washington stays stubborn and won't move Beal yet. Now, Holiday is the bell of the ball and there are 6-10 teams all bidding, knowing that they might not have a shot at any top tier guys any time soon.

So, again, you guys are debating the wrong thing. The debate is: Would we get more Thursday or more this summer? And I think its incredibly likely you can get more this summer. I certainly don't think its very likely you could get less

Yes having him on a long term deal puts us in the driver seat. I won't pretend to know if it's better to sell now or hold on any Holiday trades. I do hope though that all this Jrue apart of the future from the FO is just rhetoric to protect his trade value.

[pelafanatic]

So if we don't believe Jrue is the long term 3rd option on this team, who is? What type of player would be an ideal fit next to Zion and BI long term with Zo and Hart as secondary pieces and potentially Jax and NAW in the future. I think its important to try and identify that now because we have to be ready to strike on an opportunity to acquire one of those guys if they became available.

I've seen a lot of people suggest its an elite pull up shooter. If so, would we go after Beal or Buddy? Can you subtract Jrue and add a subpar defender next to Ingram and still survive?

Either way, I think whatever assets we acquire for Jrue should be with the future flip in mind. IMO, we're not so much acquiring guys for this team as we are acquiring pieces to be moved in a future deal for a superstar. That's why I would wait, if we truly believe more lucrative deals will become available this summer.

[Pelicanidae]

I just don't understand the game plan. Williamson is 19 Ingram is 22 that's the foreseeable nucleus of this team. Everyone that should be seen as a long term(at least 4 seasons from now) candidates should fit them in play style and age. Jrue is 29 and his playstyle will force Ingram to be a 3 and Williamson to play the 4. This doesn't even get Holiday inability to play well in the clutch and all his many turnovers.

Trading Holiday IMO should be a no brainer.

Ingram is a 3 and Zion is a 4/5. What's the issue there?

[Pelicanidae]

New Orleans continues to be content with Jrue Holiday remaining on roster through Thursday’s NBA Trade Deadline, league sources tell ESPN. The kind of overwhelming offer it would take to pry Holiday hasn’t surfaced in the marketplace.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) February 5, 2020

Unsurprising. Trading Jrue isn't some forbidden idea that nobody will permit, but he's a good player who has value and he's not getting moved for garbage.

[pelafanatic]

Ingram is a 3 and Zion is a 4/5. What's the issue there?

Not sure which 2s in the league Ingram is covering, but he sure as hell can't stick with Mitchell, Murray, Harden, SGA, CJM, Booker, in no particular order. And that's just in the west. This also doesn't take into consideration what a disaster Zion has been on ball against quicker ball handlers.

Zion at the 3 would just absolutely demolish spacing as well. I can't imagine what 4 and 5 you would have to put next to a 3 man group of Ball, Ingram, Zion; but again traditionally floor spacing bigs are horrid defensively.

[JJackisangry]

Best thing that can happen is we sneak into the playoffs and Jrue balls out there increasing his value a good bit. He is more of a postseason player anyway so that might be the best possible scenario. The Heat are the only team that are desperate for someone like Jrue but they don’t really have much in assets atm. So- we wait I guess.

[Pelicanidae]

Not sure which 2s in the league Ingram is covering, but he sure as hell can't stick with Mitchell, Murray, Harden, SGA, CJM, Booker, in no particular order. And that's just in the west. This also doesn't take into consideration what a disaster Zion has been on ball against quicker ball handlers.

Zion at the 3 would just absolutely demolish spacing as well. I can't imagine what 4 and 5 you would have to put next to a 3 man group of Ball, Ingram, Zion; but again traditionally floor spacing bigs are horrid defensively.

I can imagine Zion at the 3 in certain lineups, particularly if you have stretchier bigs at the 4 and the 5, that's not really the issue.

But yeah, Ingram's absolute peak position is the 3, imo. Maximises his defensive qualities (the size he imposes over smaller players, wingspan advantages, etc) while minimising his defensive flaws; guarding up against bigs exposes his lack of strength and his high balance, and guarding down against dynamic, explosive guards exposes his relatively slow footspeed, his poor screen navigation, and his occasional balance problems.

[pelafanatic]

I can imagine Zion at the 3 in certain lineups, particularly if you have stretchier bigs at the 4 and the 5, that's not really the issue.

Definitely. I was strictly speaking finishing lineups. It would be a real test to piece together a lineup featuring Zo-BI-Zion that has two stretch bigs who can finish a game.

[Bonecrusher]

For me the starting price is 2 firsts, one of which must be lottery pick, plus a serviceable young player. Someone with NAW potential. That's the start. Not sure if even that is enough.

Not sure Jrue is valued around the league as much as D'Lo which has GS asking for 2 #1 picks both unprotected. Jrue has value just not what everyone here thinks he does.

[Pelicanidae]

Not sure Jrue is valued around the league as much as D'Lo which has GS asking for 2 #1 picks both unprotected. Jrue has value just not what everyone here thinks he does.

Jrue has more value than DLo for most teams, I think. DLo is a better on ball passer and shooter, but that's basically it, and going to a better team means that your touches are likely to be diminished, so on-ball skills are generally a bit less portable. The exception being Minnesota, I guess, since they don't really have a star guard or anything right now.

The issue is that I don't really see why anyone would be prioritising picks in a Jrue trade. We have 40 million picks over the next few years, and there are only so many young players you can develop simultaneously while giving them all justice and opportunity. Frankly, if there are any picks involved in a Jrue deal, they should be only as sweeteners in case of lower value assets, and they should be for 2021 and beyond rather than immediate.

Also ''Jrue has value just not what everyone here thinks he does''. Most people on here seem to think he's worth about a Gary Harris and the #25 pick, so if everyone else thinks he has even less value than that, he's a salary dump

[Bonecrusher]

Jrue has more value than DLo for most teams, I think. DLo is a better on ball passer and shooter, but that's basically it, and going to a better team means that your touches are likely to be diminished, so on-ball skills are generally a bit less portable. The exception being Minnesota, I guess, since they don't really have a star guard or anything right now.

The issue is that I don't really see why anyone would be prioritising picks in a Jrue trade. We have 40 million picks over the next few years, and there are only so many young players you can develop simultaneously while giving them all justice and opportunity. Frankly, if there are any picks involved in a Jrue deal, they should be only as sweeteners in case of lower value assets, and they should be for 2021 and beyond rather than immediate.

Also ''Jrue has value just not what everyone here thinks he does''. Most people on here seem to think he's worth about a Gary Harris and the #25 pick, so if everyone else thinks he has even less value than that, he's a salary dump

Some think he's going to fetch them a 1st round pick and MPJ when Denver has already said he's untouchable or Miami trading Winslow, Herro etc. If Miami sends anyone out it will have to include Waiters.

[Pelicanidae]

Some think he's going to fetch them a 1st round pick and MPJ when Denver has already said he's untouchable or Miami trading Winslow, Herro etc. If Miami sends anyone out it will have to include Waiters.

Well yeah, it frustrates me when people bring up MPJ when he's already off the table. That's clear.

If Miami want Jrue, they're going to have to give up some assets. They don't have picks, so it can't be those. Obviously those assets won't be Butler or Adebayo, for clear reasons. So what else is it going to be? Dragic won't do it, and if we have to take someone like Waiters that doing a huge favour to Miami. If they both shed bad salary and take in the best player in the deal, then they have to move good players to do it. That's got to be Herro and/or Winslow/Robinson.

If they don't want to do that, then that's absolutely fine, but the consequence of that is that they don't get Jrue.

[PELICANSFAN]

Not sure Jrue is valued around the league as much as D'Lo which has GS asking for 2 #1 picks both unprotected. Jrue has value just not what everyone here thinks he does.

There is little doubt that Jrue holds much more value with most GMs than Russell. Russell does have some value over Jrue based on age. However, Jrue is probably one of the best 2-way guards in the NBA and a glue guy (which Russell is far from).

[Pelicanidae]

There is little doubt that Jrue holds much more value with GMs than Russell. Russell's only value over Jrue is his age and 3 point shooting. Jrue is probably one of the best 2-way guards in the NBA and a glue guy (which Russell is far from).

DLo's value is artificially inflated by the fact that both KAT and Devin Booker are friends with him, and both of those franchises have obvious motivation to give those two players what they want. Warriors are trying to take advantage of that, for obvious and sensible reason.