Trading Jrue?

[As I See It]

The problem eye-test people have is that while they love to talk trash about statistics (usually because they don't understand them, tbh) they completely fail to realise that there's a huge, gaping, glaring hole in the eye test.

That is; the eye test is only as good as the person performing it. If you're a basketball savant, then your eye test is very useful. If you're an idiot who barely understands what's going on, your eye test is worth less than garbage.

Just something to keep in mind.

….and that same argument works in reverse for the 'geek' who has never played a competitive game of basketball in his/her life. No?

[donato]

So when Ingram's getting paid the max next year, will his mistakes suddenly, over the course of one summer, become inexcusable? If he's playing like this when he's the highest paid member of the team and the returning all-star, will we get calls to move him?

Of course we won't.

Jrue is absolutely the scapegoat. He's one of the best players on the team despite his disappointments in certain areas, and his playing has only improved as the year has gone on. Yet as he's gotten better, fit more precisely with existing pieces, rather than calls for him to be moved quieting down they have instead only gotten louder.

Some people on this board decided they wanted Jrue moved in November and it does not matter what he does at this point; their minds are made up. Done. Opinion decided. They want him gone.

1. Ingram is both far more consistent and far more clutch than Jrue. He has shown he can take the team on his back in games. He does make mistakes, but being as young as he is I think many are willing to give him a pass for those mistakes and attributing it to maturity. If he's still making the same mistakes in a few years (OR AT 29 YEARS OLD) then he'd deserve a lot more criticism for it.

2. I don't care if Jrue is moved now or in the offseason, I'd just like to get the best deal we can. Letting his contract expire and/or not getting top dollar seems very foolish.

Is Jrue really the "veteran leadership" / "lead by example" guy we want for the young guys? Given his great inconsistency and low-IQ play I wouldn't think so.

[As I See It]

Holiday and Hayes for Bagley and Bogdan?

I'm perhaps the biggest critic of JAX as there is in here. For me, he's virtually untouchable; the upside is just too great.

[Pelicanidae]

….and that same argument works in reverse for the 'geek' who has never played a competitive game of basketball in his/her life. No?

Both analytics and the eye test have pros and cons.

The benefit of the eye test is that it allows to you see things occurring dynamically, so you can see stuff like missed opportunities where a player didn't necessarily do something wrong, but also could have done something better. That's a strength in the eye test that most analytic methods cannot tell you. The downside of the eye test is that, as I said, it's only ever as good as the person doing it; if you're not very good at understanding what's going on, the value of your eye test drops dramatically. It also has the weakness of playing into biases, whether they be aesthetic or generational. People have a tendency to like what they grew up with watching, or what they personally find more fun to watch, rather than what is actually most effective at winning.

The benefit of analytics is that it allows us to filter out aesthetic bias, and to actually work out the best and most effective ways to win basketball games; basketball of course being a big game of Who Can Make The Bigger Number at the end of the day. Analytic methods also allow us to filter out some of the harder things to analyse by eye. The downside to analytics is that there are certain things which are notoriously difficult to capture (for a long time, defense was one of these) and that the best metrics out there which account for stuff like defense can't actually give you a definitive ranking of which player is best, they can only tell you who is best at their role.

The smart basketball fan uses both; they watch the games and they watch film, of course that's absolutely vital, but they're also aware in the flaws of their own eye test and therefore also use the analytics to shape up the analysis, prompt them to pay attention to certain things, and so on. It's a balance of the two.

The not-so-smart basketball fan throws analytics in the bin, declares themselves King Basketball, and decides their Their Own Subjective Eye Test is the One and Only Way to evaluate basketball, and that anyone else who disagrees is a ''geek' and a 'dork' and a ''mathematician'' rather than a real basketball fan.

I'll leave it up to you to decide where you think you fall.

[pr1840]

So when Ingram's getting paid the max next year, will his mistakes suddenly, over the course of one summer, become inexcusable? If he's playing like this when he's the highest paid member of the team and the returning all-star, will we get calls to move him?

Of course we won't.

Jrue is absolutely the scapegoat. He's one of the best players on the team despite his disappointments in certain areas, and his playing has only improved as the year has gone on. Yet as he's gotten better, fit more precisely with existing pieces, rather than calls for him to be moved quieting down they have instead only gotten louder.

Some people on this board decided they wanted Jrue moved in November and it does not matter what he does at this point; their minds are made up. Done. Opinion decided. They want him gone.

I really appreciate a lot of the content you bring to the forum, but you are dead wrong if you disagree with those that are saying that Jrue isn’t an alpha, shrinks in crunch time and commits turnovers that NOBODY of his veteran status and pay grade should make. Not sure how long you have watched Pelicans basketball, but as someone who has seen most games since we traded for Jrue, that is 100% who he is and has always been. He absolutely does have some great qualities - elite defender and good locker room presence - but I agree with those that say he is not part of the long-term future of this team. That said, I think it probably makes more sense to wait until the offseason to trade him. Will likely have a stronger market due to the weak FA class.

[As I See It]

I'll leave it up to you to decide where you think you fall.

.….as I do, you.

[Pelicanidae]

I really appreciate a lot of the content you bring to the forum, but you are dead wrong if you disagree with those that are saying that Jrue isn’t an alpha, shrinks in crunch time and commits turnovers that NOBODY of his veteran status and pay grade should make. Not sure how long you have watched Pelicans basketball, but as someone who has seen most games since we traded for Jrue, that is 100% who he is and has always been. He absolutely does have some great qualities - elite defender and good locker room presence - but I agree with those that say he is not part of the long-term future of this team. That said, I think it probably makes more sense to wait until the offseason to trade him. Will likely have a stronger market due to the weak FA class.

Okay. Like I said, not getting into arguments about whether Jrue is good or not anymore. Not worth it.

[pr1840]

Okay. Like I said, not getting into arguments about whether Jrue is good or not anymore. Not worth it.

Do you think it’s a coincidence that Jrue is having what you call an “off” season in the year Griffen called him out as the unquestioned leader of the team and MVP candidate? Quite simply, he is incapable of rising to the challenge. It’s who he is. Again, I don’t want to denigrate the guy because he is a good player and I think he would be a great part of this team if he would agree to defer in crunch time and just play elite defense. But he refuses to do that.

[Darkhorse985]

Okay. Like I said, not getting into arguments about whether Jrue is good or not anymore. Not worth it.

The point you are missing is that pretty much everyone else is saying that Jrue is a good player but no longer a fit for this team due to age, salary, and his miscast role as the leader of this team when he is really the 3rd best player on a solid team. The 3rd best player isn’t worth a max contract if he is not all star caliber. Jrue is not all-star caliber. Maybe he would sneak into an all star game in the East as he did in the past, but he will never be an all star in the West.

Trading him at some point in the next year is what will be best for this team. Whenever his value is the highest. Getting MPJ or Herro would be good value.

[Pelicanidae]

Do you think it’s a coincidence that Jrue is having what you call an “off” season in the year Griffen called him out as the unquestioned leader of the team and MVP candidate? Quite simply, he is incapable of rising to the challenge. It’s who he is. Again, I don’t want to denigrate the guy because he is a good player and I think he would be a great part of this team if he would agree to defer in crunch time and just play elite defense. But he refuses to do that.

I've said about 5 times in this thread alone that he is, speaking realistically, the third option on offense on this team. I've also said that both Ingram and Zion are better scorers than him at this period of his/their career/s. I've also invited people to wonder what the differences might be between his game this year versus in previous years when wondering why this year has been something of a disappointment to some.

Do you think that I think it's a coincidence?

[MG3n2K9]

Jrue looked really selfish vs HOU and completely ignored Zion and on top of that he killed any momentum we had anytime he tried to play hero ball. He doesnt fit with this roster don't need him. He will only get in the way of development. Zo and Ingram (even zion) can handle running the o and creating for others jrue is only in the way at this point. If he is going to be a selfish low iq player ship him and focus on developing the young guys. Get jrue on a contender and give Naw and the other guards valuable minutes.

In other words, tank. I don't think the players would react well to that.

[Pelicanidae]

The point you are missing is that pretty much everyone else is saying that Jrue is a good player but no longer a fit for this team due to age, salary, and his miscast role as the leader of this team when he is really the 3rd best player on a solid team. The 3rd best player isn’t worth a max contract if he is not all star caliber. Jrue is not all-star caliber. Maybe he would sneak into an all star game in the East as he did in the past, but he will never be an all star in the West.

Trading him at some point in the next year is what will be best for this team. Whenever his value is the highest. Getting MPJ or Herro would be good value.

Not sure if you've heard this, but Denver aren't moving MPJ.

Also, not sure if you're aware, but Jrue isn't actually on a max deal.

[pr1840]

I've said about 5 times in this thread alone that he is, speaking realistically, the third option on offense on this team. I've also said that both Ingram and Zion are better scorers than him at this period of his/their career/s. I've also invited people to wonder what the differences might be between his game this year versus in previous years when wondering why this year has been something of a disappointment to some.

Do you think that I think it's a coincidence?

OK, so most seem to agree he is the 3rd option on offense. And I can tell you, in crunch time, he should be the fifth option (I trust Zion, Ingram, Lonzo and JJ) to make plays or hit shots in crunch time before Jrue. Unquestionably his best year was when Rondo was running the show and Jrue was off ball. Unfortunately, this year others (especially Lonzo) are deferring to Jrue in crunch time and he is dominating the ball way more than he should for someone with his poor history of decision making when the game is on the line.

[Darkhorse985]

Not sure if you've heard this, but Denver aren't moving MPJ.

Also, not sure if you're aware, but Jrue isn't actually on a max deal.

1. You have no idea what teams will actually do. MPJ is not some untouchable phenom like Zion. He is a solid rookie with potential. If we can’t get MPJ, then I wouldn’t trade with Denver. I wouldn’t take a discount to keep Jrue in the West. I think Miami would be more likely to trade Herro/Winslow/expiring salary filler anyway.

2. What do you think Jrue will expect on his next contract after next season?

I agree that you typically bring good content to discussions, but you are really going full MM on this thread. People are making plenty of valid points on why Jrue should be traded eventually. You act like people shouldn’t even discuss trading him.

[Pelicanidae]

1. You have no idea what teams will actually do. MPJ is not some untouchable phenom like Zion. He is a solid rookie with potential. If we can’t get MPJ, then I wouldn’t trade with Denver. I wouldn’t take a discount to keep Jrue in the West.

2. What do you think Jrue will expect on his next contract after next season?

I agree that you typically bring good content to discussions, but you are really going full MM on this thread. People are making plenty of valid points on why Jrue should be traded eventually. You act like people shouldn’t even discuss trading him.

1) Woj has reported that Denver are not going to move MPJ. That doesn't mean he won't get traded, but it does mean you're not getting him as a throw-in to another deal without paying for him. If you want MPJ, you will be sending out assets, not getting them back. This fantasy ''Harris, MPJ, and a first for Jrue'' deal is not happening.

2) Nobody is giving Jrue a max. I feel absolutely confident in that. It will not cost a max to retain him.

This is the problem: if someone had proposed a good deal for Jrue, I'd be discussing it. I don't want to move him, but he's not untouchable, he's not one of those top 5 players in the NBA and he's never going to turn into one. But the problem is that people seem absolutely eager to trade him. Like if we somehow fail to trade him, we've made an unforgivable mistake. And therefore we should offload him at first opportunity for some terrible deal like Gary Harris. This is ludicrous.

[As I See It]

In case you haven't noticed, the Pelican just jumped the Suns within the last hour in the Western Conference standings.

[Pelifan]

Think you only consider trading Jrue for a young player who can be part of the core going forward. Heavy unknowns like draft picks (both this year because the draft sucks and future years because those are always a toss up) mean little to us, we already have a billion, so they shouldn't be the core piece in any deal.

Herro, MPJ, Annunoby, Thybulle etc. Otherwise why bother doing it now.

There's a high chance that Jrue will still be the best player even semi available on the trade market in the offseason, and with few Free Agents teams are going to be itching to make the jump to the next level while the top is still wide open and not be worried about what Jrue's price tag may be.

Guys like DLO, Turner, and Levert could become available for Jrue then as those teams try to hit the next level with a good complementary star like Jrue.

[Pelicanidae]

Think you only consider trading Jrue for a young player who can be part of the core going forward. Heavy unknowns like draft picks (both this year because the draft sucks and future years because those are always a toss up) mean little to us, we already have a billion, so they shouldn't be the core piece in any deal.

Herro, MPJ, Annunoby, Thybulle etc. Otherwise why bother doing it now.

There's a high chance that Jrue will still be the best player even semi available on the trade market in the offseason, and with few Free Agents teams are going to be itching to make the jump to the next level while the top is still wide open and not be worried about what Jrue's price tag may be.

Guys like DLO, Turner, and Levert could become available for Jrue then as those teams try to hit the next level with a good complementary star like Jrue.

Wouldn't trade Jrue for DLO or Levert. Or Herro, or Thybulle. At least not without extra involved.

Anunoby is far more interesting. Would be worth starting a conversation about.

Not even thinking about MPJ for the reason listed about. Denver aren't moving him unless they're obviously winning the trade.

The only way I prioritise draft picks in a Jrue deal is if they're 2021 draft picks likely to fall within the top 5 (Knicks, for example).

[Pelifan]

Wouldn't trade Jrue for DLO or Levert. Or Herro, or Thybulle. At least not without extra involved.

Anunoby is far more interesting. Would be worth starting a conversation about.

Not even thinking about MPJ for the reason listed about. Denver aren't moving him unless they're obviously winning the trade.

The only way I prioritise draft picks in a Jrue deal is if they're 2021 draft picks likely to fall within the top 5 (Knicks, for example).

Yea I'm not saying these are trades I'd do, or the other side would do, I'm just saying these are young players that can move the Needle for the pels going forward potentially and when they might be available from potential Jrue buyers.

[new city champ]

I think you might misunderstand me on Jrue. I can’t speak for others but I like and value him as a Pel and just as a person you want to have in your organization. I just want to use that value while it’s high to acquire different skill sets that I think fit better, namely shooting and a longer defender in the front court. Would I trade Jrue straight up for any one of those skill sets. No. But if I can get both plus a decent draft choice (even if it’s a couple of years out) then I would seriously consider it now.

Jrue turns 30 this offseason. He’s a career 35% shooter from deep. His free throw shooting, especially late in games, has taken an alarming dip. Those are relevant metrics too. I think he may be at peak value this week. Considering all the relevant factors, a trade now might be the smart play.

[Dr. Sting]

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradec..._trade/7283304

Jrue for D'Angelo Russell straight up? Sure, we give up some D but you gain shooting and youth. Salaries are pretty much a wash. Russell is a better ball handler in my opinion which may lead to less turnovers (although statistically Jrue is better). My issue with Jrue is that he seems tp need to get to the paint to really be effective and with Zion and BI already slashing down there and Jax rim running, it's a log jam. That causes Jrue to take a lot of threes which really isn't his strength. D'Angelo is a better 3 point shooter which gives us spacing. Jrue also has mental lapses on offense. It's like the game is moving too fast or something. He often gets caught in the air with nowhere to go. Just a thought.

[Pelicanidae]

God no

[Tinman]

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradec..._trade/7283304

Jrue for D'Angelo Russell straight up? Sure, we give up some D but you gain shooting and youth. Salaries are pretty much a wash. Russell is a better ball handler in my opinion which may lead to less turnovers (although statistically Jrue is better). My issue with Jrue is that he seems tp need to get to the paint to really be effective and with Zion and BI already slashing down there and Jax rim running, it's a log jam. That causes Jrue to take a lot of threes which really isn't his strength. D'Angelo is a better 3 point shooter which gives us spacing. Jrue also has mental lapses on offense. It's like the game is moving too fast or something. He often gets caught in the air with nowhere to go. Just a thought.

P U !

[Pelicanidae]

A weird idea I've seen a few times this year is that Ingram is a slasher who spends tons of time in the paint.

Where has this come from?

[As I See It]

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradec..._trade/7283304

Jrue for D'Angelo Russell straight up? Sure, we give up some D but you gain shooting and youth. Salaries are pretty much a wash. Russell is a better ball handler in my opinion which may lead to less turnovers (although statistically Jrue is better). My issue with Jrue is that he seems tp need to get to the paint to really be effective and with Zion and BI already slashing down there and Jax rim running, it's a log jam. That causes Jrue to take a lot of threes which really isn't his strength. D'Angelo is a better 3 point shooter which gives us spacing. Jrue also has mental lapses on offense. It's like the game is moving too fast or something. He often gets caught in the air with nowhere to go. Just a thought.

No way, he's a locker-room cancer on a silver platter. Ask, Nick Young or the Lakers what they think of Russell. I could never trade a talented player with upstanding character for a player who is simply simply a 'character'. No need to add arsenic to this brew!!!!