Ok, so realistically speaking. What does the deal look like?Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
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Ok, so realistically speaking. What does the deal look like?
So basically you are saying FIRE GENTRY? That has to be the problem if we can’t fault the players.
I really don’t care about stats from 2 years ago. This is a completely different team on a different timeline with Jrue at 29 with 1.5 years on his contract. He will command max/near max money on his next contract, and it should be obvious that he isn’t worth that on this team.
Last edited by Darkhorse985; 02-03-2020 at 03:08 PM.
In the world that you live in where Jrue is an absolute trash player, then yeah we couldn’t get MPJ. In the world the rest of us live in where Jrue is a just outside of all star level player in his prime, then an injury prone rookie with potential, who really hasn’t proven anything, should be a reasonable ask. If they say no, then no deal. Because the rest that they would offer isn’t worth Jrue.
I'm not saying you're not allowed to fault the players. I'm saying to think about what might be the issue beyond a player just being bad. Is Jrue bad, or is he being asked to/expected to do things that he shouldn't be? He's the team's best perimeter defender, and a strong third option offensively; that is what he is. He's being expected, though, to be the 1st option offensively at times and people are criticising him as if he was. He's not going to average 25 points per night. He's not going to score 20 straight in a quarter. If you're expecting him to, that's a problem with you.
Funnily enough, that's not just what he is, it's also what we need him to be! Ingram and Zion are naturally better scorers at this point in their careers. Ingram is a mediocre-to-below-average defender; his value comes from his offense. Let him do that. Don't expect Jrue to do that job as well. Similarly, Zion is a historically great finisher already; of course it's only been 6 games, but his at-rim volume this year is the highest in the last 20 years so far, and he's the first rookie in NBA history to average 19 points on 60% or better shooting through their first 6 games. Let him do that.
If you take a step back and you look at Jrue's game and you say ''is this good enough for the third option on a team?'' the answer is blatantly yes. Well, that's what he is.
Do we wish Jrue might turn the ball over a bit less? Sure. Do we wish he was a more reliable shooter? Sure. Do we wish he took advantage of his driving ability a bit more often? Definitely.
But if you take Jrue and you add a consistent 40% 3pt shot, and also half his turnover rate, and also up his at-rim volume while maintaining efficiency, you suddenly have one of the best players in the NBAExpecting someone to be that is unreasonable.
And yeah, I'm in favour of firing Gentry as well, that's been my position since last year and it hasn't changed. I'm perfectly willing to see the season out with him, but I don't think he should be our HC next year. No surprise there from me, it's been my position for ages.
Basketball.
I also agree about firing Gentry at the end of the season. I honestly don’t think it will happen though unless the team falls on its face. Nepotism will keep him around.
For me the starting price is 2 firsts, one of which must be lottery pick, plus a serviceable young player. Someone with NAW potential. That's the start. Not sure if even that is enough.
Has to include a player that fits what the team is trying to do going forward because realistically, you trade Jrue only if he does not fit the future plan or he wants out. If Denver is involved, it has to start with MPJ. If it is the Heat, Herro and Winslow have to be included. As neither are likely to do that, it makes the most sense to keep him.
Man... Jrue has barely played any games with our newly configured team including Zion... you are out of your minds if you do not want to give them a little more time to figure out how to play together. Do you even realize how mindbogglingly good Jrue Holiday fits on both offense AND defense as the THIRD best player on a damn team? Give the guy a minute and maybe read a book to increase those attention spans a bit.
Agree. As long as he is willing to stay here, we should want him here.
Over our last 22 games, the Pelicans are 14-8. That's since December 18th, when we beat Minnesota.
During that 22 game stretch, Jrue Holiday has had the 3rd best On/Off on the team. The only two names ahead of him have been Favors and Zion, and obviously Zion's sample size is smaller than most of the team.
That is: when we have been playing our best basketball, the most winning basketball of our season, Jrue has been right up there are one of the most impactful names on the team.
Again, if Jrue is your first option, being asked to score 25 a night and facilitate and guard the other team's best perimeter player, he's not good at that. We know this. Very few players could be; it's a huge burden to place on someone. But as your 3rd option? He's excellent. Everything you could realistically ask for.
As a 3rd option, sure. But in the clutch he doesn't act like a 3rd option. He acts like he's the 1st option and makes boneheaded plays / bad shot selection chucks. He simply doesn't pass the eyeball test no matter what selective stats are shown.
He doesn't fit the team timeline and makes too much money anyway. We should've traded him last off-season. The longer we wait the less value we'll get/get nothing in return.
Ryan Anderson had some pretty good stats too, but like Jrue, he was also wildly inconsistent. Trade him.
Those on/off stats are just averages. As a player, time and time again, he has shown to not handle pressure in big games. Even when he doesn't come out and lay a total egg, he'll make the worst lazy boneheaded turnover at the worst times. Miss crucial free throws or take the worst shot possible.
As a high paid vet whom many call an all-star caliber player, you dont expect that. He is way too erratic game to game with the floor of a player that belongs in the g league. And his floor should not be that low.
If our SG is going to be a 3rd option then I prefer a shooting guard who can actually shoot. Jrue is a tenacious defender and a crafty scorer, but I would be willing to trade that skill set + his contract + his age for a younger guard who goes 40%ish from behind the arc and only needs limited looks. If I can also get back a good pick and a defensive wing or forward then I’m tempted to do a deal.
An example of a not perfect trade of this type would be Holiday to the Heat for Winslow + Herro + pick. Another might be Holiday to Denver for Beasley + Grant + pick. I might even consider accepting Robinson in lieu of Herro from Miami. Maybe.
I love Holiday, but he’s going on 30, isn’t a great shooter and frankly has become suspect late game, both from the foul line and as a shooter and decision maker on the floor. I think we can get a better fit for this young line up.
I’ll +1 before Pelicandae tries to counter your point with stats from 2 years ago and lines that really don’t mean anything if they don’t equate to consistent winning basketball. Jrue Holiday has never been a consistent winner on this team and his age and salary no longer make him a value player. I do think he can take a winning team to the next level with his defensive skill set though. I definitely wouldn’t trade him for peanuts. I’d want Michael Porter Jr or Herro as the start of any deal with the Nuggets or Heat.
Jrue looked really selfish vs HOU and completely ignored Zion and on top of that he killed any momentum we had anytime he tried to play hero ball. He doesnt fit with this roster don't need him. He will only get in the way of development. Zo and Ingram (even zion) can handle running the o and creating for others jrue is only in the way at this point. If he is going to be a selfish low iq player ship him and focus on developing the young guys. Get jrue on a contender and give Naw and the other guards valuable minutes.
Lol, I'm not going to try and argue with any of you about it anymore. It's pretty clear that it doesn't actually matter what stats or evidence I show you guys, because you've made your minds up; you want Jrue gone, and that's all that really matters here. You guys want a scapegoat, Jrue's your man. That's cool.
If stats and lines don't mean anything if they don't equate to winning basketball, then hey, let's trade Ingram too.
Last edited by Pelicanidae; 02-03-2020 at 07:26 PM.
Ingram isn’t the highest paid player on the team and therefore not paid to be the “leader” of the team. Jrue is a veteran who plays careless at times and it seems to rub off on the others. I get that Gentry gives him and all of the players a lot of freedom; but chunking the ball and throwing passes off your back foot is not something any veteran player should be doing. Especially when games are close and every possession counts. Also don’t forget his hugging AD and smiling after getting embarrassed by the Lakers.
I really thought he would play better with Zion in the lineup. I won’t be upset if he is still on the team after the deadline because we could use a bigger sample size of playing with Zion and it shouldn’t be a rash decision. However, i will be furious if he is still on the team and we were offered a great deal.
We have Ingram we have to extend. Even though the free agent class looks weak now, there will be at least one player available that we will covet because they were under the radar (always is).
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Ingram's about to get maxed. Let's not talk about contract sizes here. You're telling me that Ingram's mistakes are okay because he's not the highest paid player? He's gonna get maxed out in a few months. He's going to be paid substantially more than Jrue is. If something is unforgivable for Jrue to do, then why isn't it unforgivable for Ingram to do the same given the colossal payday that's incoming for him?
''I really thought he would play better with Zion in the lineup'' he is. Jrue + Zion is literally the second best 2 man combo we've had all year long. It's second only to Favors + Zion. Ingram + Zion is third.
This is what I mean. It literally does not matter what the reality of the situation is. If you want Jrue moved, you want him moved. It's that simple. People have found their scapegoat.
I swear to God, Jrue could average 30 on 50/40/90 over the next 5 games and all you'd hear from some people is how great it is that he's raising his trade value.
Com'mon guys, we have to learn to yield to the power of the metrics.
Don't trust your eyes...don't trust the team's record over the last six years....don't trust the team's success (or lack thereof) in recent years. Obviously, results don't matter....records don't matter...only the metrics matter. The mathematicians of today have this all under control, don't you know? Jrue, U 'da Man (so sayeth the numbers)
It’s not that he is the scapegoat. I raised the WTH flag as soon as Griff said he was going to the team leader and next MVP candidate in the offseason. Hell, i thought he was inconsistent last year but gave him the benefit of the doubt with Davis drama going on.
I am aware that Jrue is a good player with a certain skillset. I don’t see how that skillset fits our team as constructed. I think he would be a better fit on another team that already has leadership established and has other players to bring out the best in him like AD did.
Finally, it is forgivable for Ingram to have bad games because he is 22 years old and paid like it. Ingram has been a pleasant surprise who has exceeded expectations while Jrue is the appointed and self appointed team leader.
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The problem eye-test people have is that while they love to talk trash about statistics (usually because they don't understand them, tbh) they completely fail to realise that there's a huge, gaping, glaring hole in the eye test.
That is; the eye test is only as good as the person performing it. If you're a basketball savant, then your eye test is very useful. If you're an idiot who barely understands what's going on, your eye test is worth less than garbage.
Just something to keep in mind.
If 6 six years from now, we only manage 1 playoff series win and 2 appearances, then yes I would say trade Ingram too.
Yes, Jrue is a solid player, but no better than a 29 year old third option who will be seeking a max/near max contract in a little over a year. Those $ stats matter.
Last edited by Darkhorse985; 02-03-2020 at 08:27 PM.
So when Ingram's getting paid the max next year, will his mistakes suddenly, over the course of one summer, become inexcusable? If he's playing like this when he's the highest paid member of the team and the returning all-star, will we get calls to move him?
Of course we won't.
Jrue is absolutely the scapegoat. He's one of the best players on the team despite his disappointments in certain areas, and his playing has only improved as the year has gone on. Yet as he's gotten better, fit more precisely with existing pieces, rather than calls for him to be moved quieting down they have instead only gotten louder.
Some people on this board decided they wanted Jrue moved in November and it does not matter what he does at this point; their minds are made up. Done. Opinion decided. They want him gone.
Holiday and Hayes for Bagley and Bogdan?
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