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Thread: NBA DRAFT 2020 DISCUSSION

  1. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Nope
    Don’t just say nope, say who you think is.

    Also it’s no a definitive answer which is why I said IMO.

  2. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by HornetGuru View Post
    Don’t just say nope, say who you think is.

    Also it’s no a definitive answer which is why I said IMO.
    I mean, I've been quite clear that I think the best shooter in the draft is Desmond Bane. Really high efficiency on a truly enormous sample size across multiple years in college. Can shoot off movement, coming off screens, off the pure catch and shoot. Has shown pull-up ability without any major drop off in the efficiency. Shoots from NBA range regularly, has a very consistent form, doesn't seem to be bothered by contests very much.

    Just clearly a very very higher level shooting prospect.
    Tyrese Maxey/Isaac Okoro/Killian Tillie/Onyeka Okongwu/Devin Vassell endorser.

    Eye test people: analytics people watch more basketball than you do.

  3. #953
    Looking forward to, as the people who haven't really paid attention to the draft now start to drift towards ''draft season'', the rebirth of Obi Toppin discourse

  4. #954
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Looking forward to, as the people who haven't really paid attention to the draft now start to drift towards ''draft season'', the rebirth of Obi Toppin discourse
    Like Mac says, at 13 we need a guy elite at just one skill

    Not 5s across the board

  5. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by AusPel View Post
    Like Mac says, at 13 we need a guy elite at just one skill

    Not 5s across the board
    Which is fine, if you have an argument for drafting Toppin, then you're allowed to make that argument.

    What I'm not looking forward to is the return of people who insist that he's this top tier dominant elite tier prospect when he's actually massively flawed in a bunch of very important areas.

    Kind of like how all the pre-season ''James Wiseman is David Robinson'' takes came out, and were all immediately awful because a lot of people have no idea what they're talking about.

  6. #956
    That said, as I said talking to Mac the other day, the ''get one elite skill, don't care about the auxiliaries'' only works if the other guy with better auxiliaries doesn't also have an elite skill.

    If you're being asked to choose between a player who is a 9/10 in one category, and a 3/10 at everything else, and a player who is a 9/10 in one category as well but a 6/10 in everything else, and you choose the former because ''we don't need someone who has 5s across the board'' then you're kind of missing the forest for the trees.

  7. #957
    Just to give an example of what I mean by mainstream draft stuff often being just complete nonsense, let's take a look at the newest Sports Illustrated Mock from literally today. The link is here: https://www.si.com/nba/2020/10/14/nb...ns-post-finals

    Obviously not going to go over every single pick, but just a few notable cases where what they say is particularly bad or strange.

    #2: James Wiseman: Most of what they say is reasonable, even if I think the 2nd pick is way too high, but this stands out to me as just being sort of weird. They say ''he's more of a traditional center, but he's also not a stiff'': what do they mean by ''a stiff''? Of course, Wiseman is very mobile in a straight line but he has dreadful footwork, poor hip mobility, weirdly bad lateral quickness for someone with his frame, and tends to rest a lot of his weight too far back in defensive positions outside of the paint.

    #6: Tyrese Haliburton: This is just a really really bad pick, and the logic they use to justify it is bad as well. ''Haliburton is seen as one of the safest bets in the draft to return value, with the type of preternatural feel and passing ability that should keep him in the NBA for a long time'' is the description they give, and I think it's wrong at basically every level. Not only is Haliburton far from a safe bet given his very mediocre handle, his lack of elite quickness, his poor finishing, etc, but the ability to leverage passing ability at the NBA level requires the ability to pressure a defense which I doubt Haliburton will be able to do consistently.

    #10: Precious Achiuwa: This is just a wild overdraft. Precious is a late first rounder, not a top ten pick. Absurd over-evaluation.

    #13: Aaron Nesmith: ''it’s fairly clear that Nesmith is the best pure shooter in the draft, with that potentially special skill to sell and a somewhat underrated floor game'' Nope. Just nope. It's not at all clear that Nesmith is the best pure shooter in the draft, as I've discussed over and over, and his floor game is not ''somewhat underrated'' it's just really bad. Honestly strikes me as a very surface level evaluation without much nuance.

    #22: Jaden McDaniels: Another example of physical profile overshadowing ability, McDaniels is just not very good at basketball. They actually note this in the article, saying that 'frankly, he was just not very good in college'' but they then turn around and lay the blame for that on his team, before saying ''McDaniels can handle, pass, and shoot'': there's serious doubt about whether he can do any of those things at the kind of level that will be required to make him a passable NBA player. This is a guy who averaged a higher TOV% than AST%, shot 34% from 3 and only about 75% from the FT line, and showed no real in-between game that would be likely to amplify your shooting expectations. Where the perception of him as some 3-core-skill player in disguise came from is beyond me.


    Suffice it to say, drafting Vernon Carey, Isaiah Stewart, and Jalen Smith back to back to back all in the first round while Xavier Tillman is still on the board is just laughable valuation, from my perspective.

    They also have Grant Riller going in the second round, which is silly to me: if he goes #41 like they suggest, he's going to be an absolute steal. Paul Reed at #50 is absurd value, he could easily go as a first rounder even if not lottery. When Desmond Bane comes up, it's at #30 and they suggest that his short wingspan could limit his upside defensively (fair) but also critique his ability as a handler and passer, which is strange given that they put players with much worse handling and passing higher up and praised them as having ''underrated'' abilities. They do not even mention Bane's shooting which is a hideous oversight.

    Mainstream draft analysis remains terrible.

  8. #958
    So...do you know how people make these mocks? They arent going through tape and making a ton of evaluations and then putting out a mock draft. They are talking to low level scouts and execs in organizations who spout out generic takes and theories to them and then they write articles for the very simple, casual fan.

    There are only a handful that really take the NBA draft seriously and do their own scouting and write in depth for the hardcore fan.

    What you need to remember is about 99.8% of people who buy tickets, watch basketball, etc are casuals. So content will always be built around them. Written for them.
    @mcnamara247

  9. #959
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    So...do you know how people make these mocks? They arent going through tape and making a ton of evaluations and then putting out a mock draft. They are talking to low level scouts and execs in organizations who spout out generic takes and theories to them and then they write articles for the very simple, casual fan.

    There are only a handful that really take the NBA draft seriously and do their own scouting and write in depth for the hardcore fan.

    What you need to remember is about 99.8% of people who buy tickets, watch basketball, etc are casuals. So content will always be built around them. Written for them.
    I am aware. That doesn't mean it isn't annoying to spend a whole year watching tons of tape and reading deep dive analyses only for draft season to come around and get tons of people who watched a 5 minute highlight video or read a dodgy mass media mock draft deciding that James Wiseman is actually David Robinson and Obi Toppin is Shaq.

    Happens all the time. Is annoying every time. I understand it's the job of the people who put these mass media mocks together to do as you've described, largely to drive clicks and feed the casual highlight-fan crowd. It's just dumb, is all.

  10. #960
    So why don't you apply to these sites. Put together some articles, some evaluations, and then send them in?

    Surely that has more of a chance of quelling your frustration than venting to the 20-30 people who frequent this board

    Be the change you want to see in the world!!!

  11. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    So why don't you apply to these sites. Put together some articles, some evaluations, and then send them in?

    Surely that has more of a chance of quelling your frustration than venting to the 20-30 people who frequent this board

    Be the change you want to see in the world!!!
    -_-

    No thank you.

  12. #962


    Wiseman informing us all that he skips leg day

  13. #963
    Max Contract Contributor AD23forMVP's Avatar
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    I'm really looking forward to this draft. I think it's going to be wildly different from what we're seeing in mocks.

    At 13 I'm looking at guys like Vassell, Tyrese Maxey, Kira Lewis. Jalen Smith, Aaron Nesmith, Precious Achiuwa, Pat Williams, and Cole Anthony a little further down from that, but Vassell, Maxey, and Lewis are my top 3.

  14. #964
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post


    Wiseman informing us all that he skips leg day
    I was thinking the same thing...ha!

  15. #965
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post


    Wiseman informing us all that he skips leg day
    If GS will trade us #2 for Holiday and and our #1 I would do it.

  16. #966
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara View Post
    So why don't you apply to these sites. Put together some articles, some evaluations, and then send them in?

    Surely that has more of a chance of quelling your frustration than venting to the 20-30 people who frequent this board

    Be the change you want to see in the world!!!
    I agree with you here! Preach!

  17. #967
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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  18. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by AD23forMVP View Post
    I'm really looking forward to this draft. I think it's going to be wildly different from what we're seeing in mocks.

    At 13 I'm looking at guys like Vassell, Tyrese Maxey, Kira Lewis. Jalen Smith, Aaron Nesmith, Precious Achiuwa, Pat Williams, and Cole Anthony a little further down from that, but Vassell, Maxey, and Lewis are my top 3.
    I'm actually *Very slightly* concerned about Vassell.

    Not extremely but his camp posted a video of him the other day, and he's been working with a trainer over the summer and his shot form seems to have changed a bit. It could just be the problem of empty gym shooting, where guys are less urgent and slower on their release, this happens sometimes (I've seen videos of great shooters like Curry just messing around and sometimes their form changes then too) but if they've actually made significant changes to his release that's no fun at all. Not even a little bit.

    Obviously that will show up in workouts for various teams: if he suddenly can't hit the side of a barn, or his release is legitimately much slower now, they'll pick up on that.

    Either way his playmaking flashes still exist and he's still the best team defender in the entire draft, so he'd still be worth drafting. But if his shot has legitimately taken a hit that would drop him at least 5 spots on my board.

    This could just mean nothing, of course, and his shot hasn't really changed. Fully aware of that. I'm not in panic mode: there's just a bit of concern.

  19. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by Butters View Post
    I was thinking the same thing...ha!
    Absolutely: when you show really inconsistent post defense and get moved by everyone who tries to go against you in the paint, the number one thing you need to do is ignore working out your lower body.

    Lower body strength for a big: who needs it?!

  20. #970
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post

    Wiseman informing us all that he skips leg day
    I literally busted out laughing when I read this and my wife is looking at me like I have lost my mind. How does a guy spend that much time training and not work on his spindly legs?

  21. #971
    Quote Originally Posted by Mount Zion View Post
    I literally busted out laughing when I read this and my wife is looking at me like I have lost my mind. How does a guy spend that much time training and not work on his spindly legs?
    People skip leg day because it's difficult and you can't get instagram hype likes from flexing your calves in the mirror like you can with biceps.

    Shame that lower body strength ends up being quite important in the NBA.

  22. #972
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    I'm actually *Very slightly* concerned about Vassell.

    Not extremely but his camp posted a video of him the other day, and he's been working with a trainer over the summer and his shot form seems to have changed a bit. It could just be the problem of empty gym shooting, where guys are less urgent and slower on their release, this happens sometimes (I've seen videos of great shooters like Curry just messing around and sometimes their form changes then too) but if they've actually made significant changes to his release that's no fun at all. Not even a little bit.

    Obviously that will show up in workouts for various teams: if he suddenly can't hit the side of a barn, or his release is legitimately much slower now, they'll pick up on that.

    Either way his playmaking flashes still exist and he's still the best team defender in the entire draft, so he'd still be worth drafting. But if his shot has legitimately taken a hit that would drop him at least 5 spots on my board.

    This could just mean nothing, of course, and his shot hasn't really changed. Fully aware of that. I'm not in panic mode: there's just a bit of concern.
    Serious question. Why the hell does players allow themselves to take bad advice from trainers who make them have shooting forms like MKG? And even if they think it's correct, you are telling me know one in the gym is saying "bro wtf is up with your form?"

    Like is that video proof of yes men in the flesh? I just don't understand this. Vessel draft stock is falling and no one, his dad, mom, cousin, brother, etc was like bro why are you shooting funny? Smh
    CAW CAW!!!

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  23. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverfoxx View Post
    Serious question. Why the hell does players allow themselves to take bad advice from trainers who make them have shooting forms like MKG? And even if they think it's correct, you are telling me know one in the gym is saying "bro wtf is up with your form?"

    Like is that video proof of yes men in the flesh? I just don't understand this. Vessel draft stock is falling and no one, his dad, mom, cousin, brother, etc was like bro why are you shooting funny? Smh
    It's hard to say, honestly. I've never been in the room with one of these guys so I don't really know what their rhetoric or their pitch looks like, and without knowing that it's difficult to know exactly how they win someone over.

    Part of me wants to say that it's a misunderstanding in the training process mixed with hype. Say that you're a good prospect looking to take that next leap, so you search for someone to work with to polish up your game. Your other friends, who are also basketball players, point you towards this one guy, who seems to have good testimonials and you look at their instagram or whatever and it seems to be legit: it's hard to tell from the promo packages anyway because 90% of trainers shoot and edit their clips the same way, and of course they don't include the failures in the highlight reel. Maybe you hit them up, talk for a bit, and it all seems in line. At this point, nothing has happened to make you think this person is awful.

    Then you go in. They say they just want to make a tweak to your form for whatever reason: maybe better elevation or a nicer arc, or just to eliminate the dip or whatever it is. You're listening to them because they appear to be a professional, but they don't take into account the fact that a shooting form isn't a series of separate parts - the entire thing flows as one unit, and changing one thing often changes the rest. You make that small tweak and suddenly your form is whacked, because the trainer hasn't accounted for that. Maybe you even panic a bit, but they'll tell you exactly what we all know to be true: sometimes things get a little worse while you're adjusting, but it'll be fine.

    Six months later, you can't shoot.

    Now, obviously, that's just my hypothetical. But it's the sort of scenario I can imagine happening. I would hope that high end prospects like Vassell have enough people around them to seek out reputable trainers and verify methods, and sort the wheat from the chaff, but who knows? Wouldn't be the first time.

    And hey, like I said, maybe this isn't actually an issue and it was just a bad training clip: those exist too. Might be nothing. I've marked it on my list of things to be aware of but I'm not worrying about it too much. The teams will get a chance to see in workouts if it's a real issue or not.

  24. #974


    This is Victor Wembanyama, currently sixteen years old, at the height of 7'2, shooting the mid-range pullup over Rudy Gobert.

    This kid, health permitting (he's so tall and so skinny) is going to be incredible in a few years.

  25. #975
    I think a lot of non-professional scouts fall into the trap of having what I'd call "short-termitis" for prospects they already don't like, and "long-termitis" for the ones they do.

    Be consistent. This is all about what they project to be 3 - 5 years removed from college/overseas. Both physically and skill wise. Not copy/paste where they are now.

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