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Thread: NBA DRAFT 2020 DISCUSSION

  1. #151
    Another thing I think is worth mentioning about drafting, and is partially why a #1 pick is less interesting this year than some other years, is cost.

    Rookies are on relatively cheap, cost controlled contracts for several years, but they aren't free.

    A number #1 pick can make (assuming only the 3 guaranteed years, not the team option 4th, and only 100% of rookie scale rather than potential 120%) about $27m on their rookie deal.

    Now, for someone like Zion, that's fine. Will very probably end up being a bargain.

    In a draft like this though? Nobody in it is a prospect of Zion's level. No one in it is a prospect of Ja Morant's level, even. Unless someone gets drafted 1st overall and then makes some big leaps, I don't think there's anyone in this draft who would be worth that basically $9m per season within 3 years.

    Meanwhile, you can get a similar quality of prospect with the #5 overall pick (for example) who will only cost something like $17m over their first 3 years, a little under $6m per year. And again, this assumes only 3 years: you can actually get 4 years out of a #5 pick for only $25m; you basically get the extra year for free compared to a #1 pick, and still save a few million in the long run.

    Again, if this is a draft where the difference between #1 and #5 is the difference between Zion and Darius Garland, then obviously that extra cost is fully worth it. But this isn't a draft like that. The difference between #1 and #5 basically comes down to taste this year. In that situation, the extra cost might not be worth it.
    Tyrese Maxey/Isaac Okoro/Killian Tillie/Onyeka Okongwu/Devin Vassell endorser.

    Eye test people: analytics people watch more basketball than you do.

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Another thing I think is worth mentioning about drafting, and is partially why a #1 pick is less interesting this year than some other years, is cost.

    Rookies are on relatively cheap, cost controlled contracts for several years, but they aren't free.

    A number #1 pick can make (assuming only the 3 guaranteed years, not the team option 4th, and only 100% of rookie scale rather than potential 120%) about $27m on their rookie deal.

    Now, for someone like Zion, that's fine. Will very probably end up being a bargain.

    In a draft like this though? Nobody in it is a prospect of Zion's level. No one in it is a prospect of Ja Morant's level, even. Unless someone gets drafted 1st overall and then makes some big leaps, I don't think there's anyone in this draft who would be worth that basically $9m per season within 3 years.

    Meanwhile, you can get a similar quality of prospect with the #5 overall pick (for example) who will only cost something like $17m over their first 3 years, a little under $6m per year. And again, this assumes only 3 years: you can actually get 4 years out of a #5 pick for only $25m; you basically get the extra year for free compared to a #1 pick, and still save a few million in the long run.

    Again, if this is a draft where the difference between #1 and #5 is the difference between Zion and Darius Garland, then obviously that extra cost is fully worth it. But this isn't a draft like that. The difference between #1 and #5 basically comes down to taste this year. In that situation, the extra cost might not be worth it.
    The fact the draft is low on potential and even floor it baffles me how much you are invested in it. What motivates you to continue to learn about the talent when in reality your scouting possible role players or players who won't last long in the league? I'm very interested to know your interest
    CAW CAW!!!

    -Founder and valuable member of the Caw Caw Boyz-

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverfoxx View Post
    The fact the draft is low on potential and even floor it baffles me how much you are invested in it. What motivates you to continue to learn about the talent when in reality your scouting possible role players or players who won't last long in the league? I'm very interested to know your interest
    Part of it is just that I love basketball. I love watching it, I love reading about it, I love thinking about it, etc. The draft is a great opportunity to do all of those things at the same time, without having to really care about whether any team wins or loses (I have no home team bias in college ball ). It helps me learn more about the game, which is great.

    Another part of it is that I think that there's a lot to be learned about drafting even in bad drafts. Knowing what to look for largely involves knowing what to avoid, and in a draft without much high level talent there's tons of opportunities to see bad trends, negative habits, etc. Watching a mediocre draft class is a great chance to get practice on my scouting ability, because there's no clouds.

    With last year's class, some of the hardest decisions were made for me before I even started because Zion was such an outlier prospect that it wasn't even something I had to think about putting him at #1. Similarly, while I had big reservations about Ja Morant (some of which I still have, some of which he has answered in his rookie year) my doubts about RJ were even larger and so I didn't have to put too much thought into #2 either. This year, there's a fight at every position, and thinking about how to differentiate those players from each other and make judgements on them will help in more high level draft years as well.

    Thirdly, there's always a chance of someone exceeding their expectations, and watching guys gives you a chance to maybe get a feel for who that might end up being. Maybe they never really pan out, but if (say) Isaac Okoro really hits, why wouldn't I want to be one of the people who can say they were in on him early?

  4. #154
    Attention all, there has been a significant breakthrough.

    Isaac Okoro lost a basketball game. This is the first time this has happened since February 2018.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Part of it is just that I love basketball. I love watching it, I love reading about it, I love thinking about it, etc. The draft is a great opportunity to do all of those things at the same time, without having to really care about whether any team wins or loses (I have no home team bias in college ball ). It helps me learn more about the game, which is great.

    Another part of it is that I think that there's a lot to be learned about drafting even in bad drafts. Knowing what to look for largely involves knowing what to avoid, and in a draft without much high level talent there's tons of opportunities to see bad trends, negative habits, etc. Watching a mediocre draft class is a great chance to get practice on my scouting ability, because there's no clouds.

    With last year's class, some of the hardest decisions were made for me before I even started because Zion was such an outlier prospect that it wasn't even something I had to think about putting him at #1. Similarly, while I had big reservations about Ja Morant (some of which I still have, some of which he has answered in his rookie year) my doubts about RJ were even larger and so I didn't have to put too much thought into #2 either. This year, there's a fight at every position, and thinking about how to differentiate those players from each other and make judgements on them will help in more high level draft years as well.

    Thirdly, there's always a chance of someone exceeding their expectations, and watching guys gives you a chance to maybe get a feel for who that might end up being. Maybe they never really pan out, but if (say) Isaac Okoro really hits, why wouldn't I want to be one of the people who can say they were in on him early?
    Thanks for the response man. In this regard I understand where you come from in this

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Another part of it is that I think that there's a lot to be learned about drafting even in bad drafts. Knowing what to look for largely involves knowing what to avoid, and in a draft without much high level talent there's tons of opportunities to see bad trends, negative habits, etc. Watching a mediocre draft class is a great chance to get practice on my scouting ability, because there's no clouds.
    Yea this is pretty good. That 2013 draft class is the worst draft class of the decade, yet Giannis was picked at 15 and Gobert was eventually picked at 27. I remember being high on Giannis at the time for the Pelicans pick at 6 because of his size combined with his ball handling ability, but there was no way anyone could've seen this coming. Yet, the top 10 included guys like Anthony Bennett, Nerlens Noel, Ben Mclemore, Trey Burke (Burke going a pick before McCollum looks so bad now).

    What would you say is the most important lesson to learn from 2013? I'd say its probably length and athleticism combined with basketball IQ. It's hard to find a guy who has elite length with decent athleticism and a high BBall IQ that fails.

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by pelafanatic View Post
    Yea this is pretty good. That 2013 draft class is the worst draft class of the decade, yet Giannis was picked at 15 and Gobert was eventually picked at 27. I remember being high on Giannis at the time for the Pelicans pick at 6 because of his size combined with his ball handling ability, but there was no way anyone could've seen this coming. Yet, the top 10 included guys like Anthony Bennett, Nerlens Noel, Ben Mclemore, Trey Burke (Burke going a pick before McCollum looks so bad now).

    What would you say is the most important lesson to learn from 2013? I'd say its probably length and athleticism combined with basketball IQ. It's hard to find a guy who has elite length with decent athleticism and a high BBall IQ that fails.
    I think that you make a good point, particularly when it comes to IQ, but really I think the lesson from most drafts ends up being the same and it continually gets ignored

    That lesson is this: draft good basketball players.

    It sounds obvious and easy, but every year people who are good at basketball get drafted behind people who are less good at basketball, and then everyone acts surprised about when the good player continues being better.

    Take last draft as an example: Brandon Clarke is one of the best players in college that year. Super efficient scorer. Not lengthy, but athletic as hell and smart, great defender on a team and individual level, one of the best players in the country. Gets drafted 21. Who gets drafted above him? Darius Garland, who had played 4 games and hadn't shown much outside of a shooting stroke: he goes at #5. Fast forward to the NBA year, who is having the better year? Clarke. Obviously, and by a mile.

    Of course, if you're a team in rebuild and you're swinging for upside, then that's valid: Garland is younger than Clarke and has time to develop, Maybe he will be good in 4 years, it's totally possible.

    But if you want to guarantee a good player, draft a good player. McCollum was better than Burke in college, why draft Burke? Yeah, he was younger, but McCollum was actually better at basketball, and see how that worked out.

  8. #158
    Speaking of actually drafting good players:

    We now have confirmation that LaMelo Ball's injury is season ending, and he will not return to the NBL this year. That means his current sample size is all we have, and we won't be getting more.

    He finishes the year having played in 13 games, and putting up the following numbers:

    17.2pts, 7.8rbds, 6.7asts per game.
    47.9% TS
    2.4STL%
    -5.8 Net Rating
    18.34 PER
    0.89 Win Shares
    4-9 W/L record

  9. #159
    Just a few random updated thoughts

    - Worries about Mannion's shooting increase as he's been extremely inefficient recently. After his 1-10 shooting game V Gonzaga I figured he'd pick it back up, but he basically has maintained that awful shooting since. I still have high hopes for it because his shot looks great and he's shooting 94.1% from the FT line during this span, but still worrying.

    - Onyeka Okongwu continues to dominate, and I think at this point I probably have to give in and just say that on talent alone, he's the #1 overall pick. He won't actually get picked there because nobody drafts none-shooting bigs that high anymore for totally fair reasons, but he is the best player in the draft. He's currently averaging 29pts, 16.0 rbds, and 5.6blks per 100 in Conference play on 62.7% TS. His BLK% of 9.5% is massive, his net rating is +28.6, and his overall BPM of 13.5 is massive. Dude is mobile, quick laterally and vertically, can already switch onto perimeter defenders well, and he doesn't really foul horribly either, averaging only 3.5 fouls per 36. He's even a 72.2%FT shooter, so he's not total garbage from there and it bodes well for his potential to develop a little range, even if it's not out to 3.

    - Cole Anthony has looked good since coming back off injury a little while ago. He's still shooting like a horror-show, but his defense (including team defense!) has been really good. Still need to see more offensively from him before he climbs back up into my top 5, but I don't really see how he's worse than Cam Reddish was last year, and Reddish went #10 so in a weaker draft like this somewhere between 5-10 probably still makes sense for Cole.

    - Isaac Okoro is still the best defensive prospect in this draft, would have been one of the best defensive prospects in last year's draft (after Matisse Thybulle and Zion, probably), and still projects as a fantastic NBA defender. His 3pt shooting is still not there, but he's trended up hard in FT% (52.4% over his first 6 games, 76.9% in the 12 games since!) which bodes well, and his improved ball handling/passing has really shown up. He's making some very strong reads and it's a great sign for his offensive potential in the NBA. It's hard to be a valuable NBA player with zero offense, unless you're an all-time great defender like a Tony Allen, so for Okoro to be showing that there's something in there to give him some offensive utility, that's huge.

  10. #160
    Having a think about where we might end up picking. It's hard to predict.

    Right now, Tankathon have us picking 11th. They have us picking Jaden McDaniels there; I do not love this pick, at this spot. McDaniels has a 50.3% TS, shoots 32.9% from 3 and only 40% from the field, has a mediocre BPM with a negative OBPM, an extremely average PER, a net rating of +0, etc. Just a very meh showing from him in college; I get that he's still young, has good size, and is mobile, but I would not take him at all this high.

    So if we picked 11th, who would I take? Assuming, of course, that all the top tier names like Maxey, Mannion, Hayes, Ball, Okongwu, Anthony, Edwards, Okoro, etc, are gone. Obviously if Okoro drops to 11, I say draft him but this is assuming who will be realistically likely to be there at 11.

    It's hard to say. To an extent, it depends what position you want to fill. For me, here is who I would be most likely to take at any given position at the #1 spot.

    Point Guard

    This is essentially a two horse race at 11, imo. Either Tyrese Haliburton or Tre Jones, is my pick. Both are talented defenders and solid shooters, although Jones has only really become a good shooter this year (he was poor last year next to Zion from 3). Jones' shooting seems more likely to translate though, as his form is more standard and requires less space, whereas Haliburton's form is a bit weird and often looks cramped. Not sure how he'd look against NBA defenses in that sense. When it comes to defense though, Haliburton does have the slight advantage: Jones is a very good defender, seems to have good core strength and a legitimate hawking mentality, but Haliburton just makes stuff happen. He's an exceptional team defender and seems to constantly be bothering someone, or in some lane, or getting some block. He's very talented in that regard, and at 6'5, he has the height to make it travel to the NBA as well, even if he's desperately in need of some more weight.

    Jones is the better driver, as Haliburton has something of Ball's reluctance to really get in amongst the trees, but Haliburton is the more creative passer. Haliburton's AST:TO ratio is insane, he averages about 7:2, which is fantastic, and his decision making is really good.

    Neither of them really pack a huge amount of burst in them, but of the two, Jones is better; he's fairly quick off the bounce and he gets very low on some of his drives. By contrast, Haliburton really is just monotonous in that sense.

    Personally, I think I would go with Jones: Haliburton is the better passer, and arguably the slightly superior defender, but Jones is solid at both of those things too, and has a more encouraging willingness to attack in the half court. The only way I see us really drafting a PG this year is if Griffin or Langdon are ready to move on from Ball, and Haliburton shares too many of Ball's issues for me to see him as a realistic replacement. Jones offers something different.

    Wings

    For me, rather than distinguish massively between shooting guards and small forwards, I'm just going with the wing archetype. Best names in the class here are Okoro and Deni Avdija, but presuming both are gone, who do I pick? Kind of a difficult answer, but right now I'm leaning towards Josh Green.

    He plays at Arizona with Mannion, and while he's been relatively underwhelming at times, there have also been moments where he's really shown something. His shooting is poor, but the form looks decent and there have been games where it's been hitting and it makes me wonder what a competent shooting coach could make out of him (Fred Vinson!). He's shown pretty solid defensive instincts at times, and flashes of being a legit event creator on that end, and his handle is a plus for a guy of his size as well. He's listed at 6'6 but I wouldn't be surprised if he was a touch taller than that, and his wingspan seems fairly large. Solid passer too, not as an on-ball creator but in that secondary playmaker role there's something there.

    Not super high on wings in this draft outside of Okoro and Avdija tbh. This pick could change easily, there's still a fair amount of basketball left to play and I'm not convinced with Green as the best wing available there.

    Bigs

    Bigs is kind of a weird category because of how the game is played here. So I'm really looking at guys who play/guard PF and C in college, not necessarily tall guys or anything.

    There are a couple of guys I'd be pretty pleased with at this position, but the highest on the radar has to be Killian Tillie. Currently playing at Gonzaga, Tillie is just great. His negatives are pretty clear: he's going to be 22 on draft day, as a result of him being a 4 year college guy, and he's not a brilliant FT shooter. He's unlikely to have star quality inside him. He's also not a phenomenal rebounder: he's got a career REB% of 13%, which would be cool for a small forward but is a little underwhelming for a big; for comparison, Zion's college REB% was 18.3%. Admittedly, Zion's a great rebounder for his height, but still.

    The positives though? Oh they're great. I think he's one of those guys who will be just ready to play. First things first, Tillie is a shooter. He's spent 4 years in college, has shot over 200 from deep (with some of this year left to go) and has hit 44.6% of them for his career. So far this year, he's shooting 39% on 4 3PA per game. He shot 44% on 2 a game last year, and 47% on 2.6 per game the year before. Dude can absolutely pull it. His TS% is 60% this year, and it's 63.7% for his career.

    Secondly, Tillie is a positive passer, especially for his position. I'm not saying he's Draymond Green or anything, or Jokic, but he has legitimately good vision and he's a strong connective player at 6'10, who can spot guys and will happily move the ball. Really hits spots easily and with confidence, and has both good timing and good rhythm on these looks. This year he's got an AST% of about 14%, and a TO% of 7%. This is very good stuff, and corresponds to his 2:1 AST:TO ratio.

    Thirdly, Tillie is a really good defender. He's never had a net rating worse than +26, and his DRtg has been under 89 for 3 of his 4 years in college. He's had a STL% of better than 2.0 for 3 of his 4 years at college, and a BLK% of better than 4% for the last 3 years running. This is very very good stuff. Additionally, his defensive BPM regularly matches up with his OBPM, and has actually exceeded it for half of his college career. This is noteworthy because Tillie's OBPM is very good: this year, it's +7.3. The result is that Tillie has posted a BPM of +10.3 or more for all 4 of his college years.

    I know he's a little older, but with Ingram being 23 next year, it's not like a 22 year old really messes with the timeline, and imo it's worth it to draft someone who is just legitimately ready to stretch the floor at the next level and help our defense. That second part becomes especially important if we're letting Favors walk.

    If we're drafting a big, it's Killian Tillie all the way imo.

  11. #161
    Watching more Killian Tillie film (can you tell I like him? lol)



    Can you imagine our stretch 5/4 being able to space the floor and make these kinds of super clean entry passes to Zion or Jax in the paint? This is really good stuff. Effortless read and feed from a 6'10, 40% deep shooter.

  12. #162
    Can't believe I forgot to mention Devin Vassell as a possible guard option. 2nd year guy, just like Haliburton and Jones. Good shooter (39% this year on 3.6 a game, was 42% on 2 per game last year) and an excellent defender. 3.4STL% this year to go with 4.7%BLK for a 6'6 guard is pretty impressive.

    Not a great playmaker, is his big downside. 12%AST for a guard isn't great, although his 6%TOV is very good. Solid defensive rebounder for a guard as well, but just wish he showed more dynamism in his ball handling and passing creativity. Probably is going to be a defensive 2-guard at the NBA level in that wing mould, although he's got a slightly smaller frame than someone like Green at the same height. Probably just as strong though, dude's tough.

    As for bigs that I forgot to mention, Paul Reed is a good option although he's not a shooter at all, talented rebounder and his 10.4%BLK rate is crazy. Has improved as a FT shooter over the years, he's basically an 80%FT guy now which does show signs that there's a capacity for him to maybe add a jumper with time, but he's already a 3 year college guy so there's some reason to have reservations about drafting a multi-year college dude who's still a prospect.

    If all you care about is shooting and you just want to draft the single best shooter in the class, then there's a few options. My personal favourite is probably Aaron Nesmith, who is currently shooting 52% from 3 on 8.6 per game through 14 games this year. He's hitting them off pullups, off screens, from motion, on the catch and shoot, just everything; I've even see stepbacks off the dribble. Absolutely lights out for him. He was a poor shooter last year (only 34%) which might cast doubt on the sustainability of this ridiculous rate of fire, but his 83% FT% has stayed stable through the years and his release looks comfortable and quick, which maybe adds a little more credibility to it. He obviously won't shoot 52% on 8+ per game in the NBA, but he does seem like the kind of guy who could transition into being a 40% shooter on decent volume relatively early.

    Nesmith's issue is that this shooting is about all he's good for. He's not a playmaker at all, and he's not really a rebounder either. He's not a particularly good defender either; not a total disaster on that end, but certainly not anything impressive even by college standards, which doesn't bode too well for his ability to translate defensive in the NBA. His issue there is more athleticism than IQ; he's pretty solid at positioning, rotating, etc, but he has very little vertical burst when it comes to defending the rim and he's not massively strong either which limits his ability on bigger perimeter guys. Imperfect footwork as well. Rarely gambles though, which is nice.

    Upside for Nesmith is an elite 3&D guy, although more 3 than D, if that makes sense. Floor will probably be as good movement shooter, negative defender.

    Just some more thoughts getting put in here
    Last edited by Pelicanidae; 01-31-2020 at 12:11 PM.

  13. #163
    It is with a heavy heart that I am removing Nico Mannion from my signature as a player I endorse

    I still kind of like him, and I think if he can figure out just a few things he could be very good at the NBA level too. Still worthy of a lottery pick, depending on team need.

    But after starting the year fantastically well, he's struggled time and again against good teams and his inability to create separation in the halfcourt or to drive with any consistency are just things I can't overlook.

    There's no doubt that his touch and his feel is still there, but he's when it comes to actually making stuff happen with reliable and consistent results, it's not looking good. He has a sub 50% TS against top 100 teams so far this year; that's just not good enough, frankly. I ragged on LaMelo Ball for his dreadful efficiency, and while Mannion's still better than Ball there, the gap has closed dramatically. I've got to be fair; if I critique Ball for his inefficiency, I've got to put the same critique to Mannion.

    This draft class, in a way, is becoming the Class of the Disappointing Guards.

    Cole Anthony has been good defensively and has shown flashes of pull up shooting and passing that remain promising, but his lack of burst in the halfcourt is evident. The athleticism he showed prior to college just hasn't been there, and while he has had some injury problems, he hasn't been able to put together any real string of strong offensive performances.

    LaMelo has that fantastic passing ability, but his shot selection is still terrible, and his defense is basically disgusting on all levels. His engagement comes and goes, his shooting mechanics are wonky as hell, and he's injured too.

    Anthony Edwards has had a handful of games where he's made it really work and showed off what he can do (I keep going back to that Maui explosion, but he had another one recently against Florida Gators) but the consistency just isn't there and there are games where he looks almost like James Harden. On defense. In 2015. Which is not what you want from anyone.

    Then you get Maxey, who hasn't really been disappointing himself, but who is being used in such a sub-optimal way that it frustrates his progress. Calipari has been criticised in the past for not really giving enough responsibility and freedom to his best players (KAT, for example, basically wasn't allowed to shoot while he was at Kentucky, which is laughable given what we know today), and that's happening here too. So the results really don't look as good numerically as he does in the few games where he's been allowed to play a little more on the ball.

    Mannion's flaws, I've outlined above.

    It's that second group of guards that I think have really impressed. I'm still not in on Hampton like some people are, although I think he's worthy of a top 15 pick, but the Tyrese Haliburton, Kira Lewis Jr, Devin Vassell, Tre Jones guards are the guys I'm in on.

    Would actually really like for us to draft Vassell actually.

  14. #164
    I actually think that for the people who would like to see Jrue traded, Devin Vassell should be one of their biggest targets.

    Think about what Jrue gives us that we like, and then think about what he gets criticised most for.

    Jrue's an excellent defender, both individually and as a team defender. He's a big guard, with plenty of strength, who can guard multiple positions. He's a smooth player who (when he's at his best) doesn't rush, and who plays within the team. Those are some of the positives.

    What people wish Jrue did better is pretty simple: people wish he was a better shooter and that he turned it over less.

    Well, Vassell is an excellent individual and team defender; he's 6'6, with plenty of strength who can guard multiple positions. He's smart and patient. He's also a career 42% 3pt shooter who has improved the more volume he's added (4.4 3PAs per game on 45% through 13 conference games so far this year) and his turnover %age is super low.

    The downside is that Vassell isn't nearly the playmaker Jrue is, but that's the tradeoff; in gaining better shooting and more conservative turnover play, you lose some of that lead-guard ability, and of course there's always the question as to whether or not Vassell's defense translates whereas we already know Jrue is an elite NBA defender. Just for the record, I do think Vassell's defense will translate, he's too smart and too high level for it not to, and his team defense is what really pops which is far more important than 1v1 D.

  15. #165
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
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    LaMelo Ball or bust!!

  16. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    LaMelo Ball or bust!!
    I live in Aus, have family who played NBL, watch it regularly.... Lamelo is a bust

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    It is with a heavy heart that I am removing Nico Mannion from my signature as a player I endorse

    I still kind of like him, and I think if he can figure out just a few things he could be very good at the NBA level too. Still worthy of a lottery pick, depending on team need.

    But after starting the year fantastically well, he's struggled time and again against good teams and his inability to create separation in the halfcourt or to drive with any consistency are just things I can't overlook.

    There's no doubt that his touch and his feel is still there, but he's when it comes to actually making stuff happen with reliable and consistent results, it's not looking good. He has a sub 50% TS against top 100 teams so far this year; that's just not good enough, frankly. I ragged on LaMelo Ball for his dreadful efficiency, and while Mannion's still better than Ball there, the gap has closed dramatically. I've got to be fair; if I critique Ball for his inefficiency, I've got to put the same critique to Mannion.

    This draft class, in a way, is becoming the Class of the Disappointing Guards.

    Cole Anthony has been good defensively and has shown flashes of pull up shooting and passing that remain promising, but his lack of burst in the halfcourt is evident. The athleticism he showed prior to college just hasn't been there, and while he has had some injury problems, he hasn't been able to put together any real string of strong offensive performances.

    LaMelo has that fantastic passing ability, but his shot selection is still terrible, and his defense is basically disgusting on all levels. His engagement comes and goes, his shooting mechanics are wonky as hell, and he's injured too.

    Anthony Edwards has had a handful of games where he's made it really work and showed off what he can do (I keep going back to that Maui explosion, but he had another one recently against Florida Gators) but the consistency just isn't there and there are games where he looks almost like James Harden. On defense. In 2015. Which is not what you want from anyone.

    Then you get Maxey, who hasn't really been disappointing himself, but who is being used in such a sub-optimal way that it frustrates his progress. Calipari has been criticised in the past for not really giving enough responsibility and freedom to his best players (KAT, for example, basically wasn't allowed to shoot while he was at Kentucky, which is laughable given what we know today), and that's happening here too. So the results really don't look as good numerically as he does in the few games where he's been allowed to play a little more on the ball.

    Mannion's flaws, I've outlined above.

    It's that second group of guards that I think have really impressed. I'm still not in on Hampton like some people are, although I think he's worthy of a top 15 pick, but the Tyrese Haliburton, Kira Lewis Jr, Devin Vassell, Tre Jones guards are the guys I'm in on.

    Would actually really like for us to draft Vassell actually.
    I hate to say it, but I didn’t expect the ginger to live up to the hype.

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by carpo View Post
    I live in Aus, have family who played NBL, watch it regularly.... Lamelo is a bust
    I can understand people being optimistic about LaMelo. Whatever is wrong with his game, he does have elite court vision and he's a talented passer. You can't teach that, and it's a power skill.

    But I can't understand people who are ride-or-die for him. His game has so many holes in it that it's absurd. Maybe you can fix those things, it's totally possible, but he's far from a guarantee.

  19. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by JJackisangry View Post
    I hate to say it, but I didn’t expect the ginger to live up to the hype.
    That's fair. There were a lot of reasons to be sceptical, but he started the year off strong enough that it looked like he had answered some of those questions. Unfortunately he's sort of regressed since mid December ish.

  20. #170
    Killian Hayes
    Anthony Edwards
    Tyrese Haliburton
    Kira Lewis

    Are the guards you'd want out of this draft as the Pelicans imo.

    There is definitely some value to be had with some of the older wing/shooter roles with Nesmith, Vassell, Shadiq Bey.

    I personally would take one of the guards but if I had to bet one of Nesmith/Vassell will be a Pelican if we stay late lottery.

  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelifan View Post
    Killian Hayes
    Anthony Edwards
    Tyrese Haliburton
    Kira Lewis

    Are the guards you'd want out of this draft as the Pelicans imo.

    There is definitely some value to be had with some of the older wing/shooter roles with Nesmith, Vassell, Shadiq Bey.

    I personally would take one of the guards but if I had to bet one of Nesmith/Vassell will be a Pelican if we stay late lottery.
    I feel like Edwards is almost a lock to go top 3, so our chances of being involved at that point are fairly low, and if Hayes' stock keeps rising like it has been, he'll probably be a top 5 guy as well.

    I'm actually a big fan of drafting in that sort of 10-15 range for us this year. I feel like drafting too high can sometimes fake you out, where you feel so desperate to get value from a high pick that you choose someone who is maybe a riskier prospect than needs be. And in a draft like this, where very few people actually project to be huge ceiling guys, it's probably much safer to go with someone who has immediate NBA skills.

    I feel like Nesmith is more of a 15-25 type candidate, but I'd be okay with him. Vassell is the guy though, I legitimately think his combination of defense and shooting would fit really well on our team, and he's got the size to work at either guard position and even occasionally move up to the 3.

  22. #172
    I really like the pels to get Okoro in this draft... we badly need someone that can defend the 3 spot mainly and some smaller 4's... may it be free agency, trade or drafting one that can do those things... i really like how Okoro plays and what he can give to this team.

  23. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by PaKwAn View Post
    I really like the pels to get Okoro in this draft... we badly need someone that can defend the 3 spot mainly and some smaller 4's... may it be free agency, trade or drafting one that can do those things... i really like how Okoro plays and what he can give to this team.
    Agreed, big Okoro fan here. Clearly the best wing defender in the class, and has shown clearly that he has some ball handling and passing utility. Absolutely not a scorer, at least not that he's shown yet, but with Zion, Ingram, possibly NAW and Jax, Didi maybe coming over, Hart, etc, I'm not too desperate to get another scorer right this minute.

  24. #174
    Also might as well throw in my support for Tyler Bey

  25. #175
    With Beline being ******** canned in Cleveland I don’t think we are getting their 1st round pick this year.
    If you Jimmer it, they will come.

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