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Thread: Thinking Basketball Analysis - Brandon Ingram

  1. #1

    Thinking Basketball Analysis - Brandon Ingram



    Thinking Basketball, run by Ben Taylor, is not perfect (no analyst is) but it is probably the best analytics YouTube channel, and Taylor is very very good overall. He's just put up a video analysing Brandon Ingram, so I figured that since Ingram is on our team now, everyone would probably wanna see it.

    I'll write up key points later for if people don't wanna watch it, but for now I'm just posting the vid.
    Paying attention to the next draft too early.

    Tyrese Maxey/Isaac Okoro/Oscar Tshiebwe endorser.

  2. #2
    Key takeaways from this analysis video.

    Pros:

    - Solid handle, especially for his height
    - Skilled at using his length to overcome some of his athletic shortcomings
    - Unusual, but often effective footwork on drives
    - Has a good up-fake, and uses it often enough to draw fouls, sitting in the 89th percentile when it comes to FTAs
    - Good midrange shooter, sitting in the 89th percentile as an overall midrange shooter
    - Comfortable taking ball-handling duties, and can be a willing passer at times
    - Has shown flashes of high level passing ability, making a number of nice passes out of the pick and roll
    - Skill as a secondary passer can help make up for some of his shooting issues, helping him unlock high leverage plays when placed next to a legitimate playmaker who can scramble a defense
    - Shows high quality defensive flashes, particularly by making use of his length when defending smaller guards
    - Good and switchable help defender, who can defend guards and wings with equal ability due to his huge wingspan and height advantages


    Cons:

    - Lacks verticality and practical, in-game athleticism, which leads to weak finishing (only 53rd percentile in at-rim fg% last season)
    - Physique and lack of strength leads to him being easily moved by defenders, especially on drives.
    - Often too passive on offense, giving up good looks due to being indecisive, and settling for poorly selected shots
    - Far from perfect shot profile: nearly 50% of all his shots come from the midrange, with the midrange being some of least efficiency shots you can take
    - Inconsistent playmaker, often wasting 10 seconds or more on the shotclock shifting in and out of position before making a play or a pass, even when multiple options present themselves to him.
    - Limited by a lack of pull-up, and spot-up shooting, being a career 33% 3 point shooter with a relatively slow release. He also doesn't take the threes very often, and his subpar career FT shooting doesn't lend a great deal of hope towards reliability from beyond the arc anytime soon.
    - Slow feet get him out of position fairly often on defense.
    - Poor lateral quickness makes it hard for him to change directions on defense, which is heavily exploitable against heavy screening offenses and by shifty ball handlers
    - Lack of strength lets stronger opponents overpower him when he's defending them, particularly in the post
    - Has occasional mental lapses that let him get exploited when he's the off-ball defender, giving up layups, missing assignments in transition, etc etc

    Summary: Reminds Ben a little of Michael Cooper, who was a long defender who could get steals and disrupt offenses, especially when there was a defense around him that could cover his mobility issues, and had enough vision and ball handling ability to act as a secondary playmaker on the break or in the halfcourt. Better offensive player than Cooper was, but needs to improve drastically as a shooter, and doesn't project massively well as an offensive centrepiece. Should polish his secondary skills, such as playmaking, defense, etc, and projects well if he does that as the third option on a high level team.

    Final sentence of the video: ''Overall, I think he would do well to finish 2020 as a top 75 player in the NBA, and one day to peak at a sub All-Star level.''

    Advanced stat profile:
    Scoring Rate: 71st percentile
    TS%: 44th percentile
    Creation: 60th percentile
    Spacing: 15th percentile
    Passer Rating: 56th percentile
    Offensive Load: 69th percentile
    Backpicks BPM: 161st in the NBA
    Goldstein PIPM: 202nd in the NBA
    Luck Adjusted RAPM: 166th in the NBA

  3. #3
    The Franchise Liltiger's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting, i think if Ingram stays healthy he will lead the Pels in scoring ... differently think he has a break out year

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Liltiger View Post
    Thanks for posting, i think if Ingram stays healthy he will lead the Pels in scoring ... differently think he has a break out year
    I think he could have his best year so far in terms of the advanced stats, but I would be shocked if Ingram finishes the year as one of our best 4 players. That's fine, he doesn't have to be our best player in order to have a good year, or our leading scorer. I'm not asking for anything like that from him.

    Don't be surprised if he actually scores less this year than last year, depending on how Gentry decides to dish out minutes, but if Ingram integrates well into the offense, plays within the flow of the team, and works more to enhance his playmaking, I think he can be a more impactful and valuable player even if his raw scoring stats drop.

    I see that as a ''breakout'' year, because of the actual impact difference, but I know there are some people out there who would see his raw box score stats drop and see that as a regression, so whether or not you think that's a breakout is up to you, I guess.

  5. #5
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! pelicanchamp's Avatar
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    He is very unique imo. I would like him to be a lot more aggressive on defense. Having Zion will make everyone play better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    You pretty much have to throw out his Laker stats since he's now playing in a much different system with Gentry.

    And he will be at least this team's 3rd highest scorer. No doubt. You just cant waste 6'9"/6'10" talent like that.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    You pretty much have to throw out his Laker stats since he's now playing in a much different system with Gentry.

    And he will be at least this team's 3rd highest scorer. No doubt. You just cant waste 6'9"/6'10" talent like that.
    I don't doubt he'll be the team's second or third highest scorer, sure. I said I'd be shocked if he finished as one of the top 4 best players, not highest scorers.

    You also don't have to throw out his Laker's stats at all.

    Imagine if we did that any other time. ''Should we trade for X player?'' ''Nah, because as soon as they get here we have to throw out all their stats and we won't know if they're good or not.''

  8. #8
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    "peak at a sub all-star level" smh lol..

    You would post a video like this my good friend Mr. Pelicanidea..

    Players with an ability to average 28PPG with a high percentage.. (even for a short period of time) While being one of the best isolation scorers in the league at 22 years old don't "peak at sub all-star level".

    Analytics, cant tell you who he is.. he wasn't utilized under optimal conditions.. I guarantee, he will be one of the best players on this team.

  9. #9
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWY60jD44uA

    He sure has dunked on a lot of centers considering how limited he's supposed to be athletically..

  10. #10
    Iíd rather he be 15-16ppg with 3+ blocks/steals and 4 assists per game.

    Iíve watched Ingram since his college days. I still think heíll never be a #1 option AND THATS OKAY. Heís more of an ultra talented cog in a system kind of like an elite Wide Receiver. He likes to play in the flow as opposed to force feeding him.

    And I think this team might just be the perfect place for him to become one of the best Jack-of-all-Trades in the league where he focuses half of his energy on being a defensive nightmare and the other half making smart decisions in the half court on offense.

    When he is locked in and feeling comfortable...itís literally a joy to watch him control a team. Thereís a Rondo-vibe almost to him
    Last edited by akhan786; 10-07-2019 at 07:07 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    "peak at a sub all-star level" smh lol..

    You would post a video like this my good friend Mr. Pelicanidea..

    Players with an ability to average 28PPG with a high percentage.. (even for a short period of time) While being one of the best isolation scorers in the league at 22 years old don't "peak at sub all-star level".

    Analytics, cant tell you who he is.. he wasn't utilized under optimal conditions.. I guarantee, he will be one of the best players on this team.
    It's funny, back when the trade was undecided and we were still talking about which deals for AD we preferred, people on here were posting the Thinking Basketball analysis of Lonzo Ball as evidence of his high upside, his defensive capabilities, passing skills, etc.

    Now that the trade is over, suddenly only someone like ''you'' [read, me] would post something like this

    I'm sorry, anyone who cites ppg as their argument needs to just stop. Andrew Wiggins average 24ppg for an entire season and he's hot garbage. Thanks for your input.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by akhan786 View Post
    I’d rather he be 15-16ppg with 3+ blocks/steals and 4 assists per game.

    I’ve watched Ingram since his college days. I still think he’ll never be a #1 option AND THATS OKAY. He’s more of an ultra talented cog in a system kind of like an elite Wide Receiver. He likes to play in the flow as opposed to force feeding him.

    And I think this team might just be the perfect place for him to become one of the best Jack-of-all-Trades in the league where he focuses half of his energy on being a defensive nightmare and the other half making smart decisions in the half court on offense.

    When he is locked in and feeling comfortable...it’s literally a joy to watch him control a team. There’s a Rondo-vibe almost to him
    I can't agree with the last sentence since watching Rondo is very much not a joy to me

    But yeah, I agree. I would much rather he average 16ppg (which is actually what I projected him to average on this team, this year, as the third highest scorer) on improved efficiency, taking better shots rather than more shots, working on his outside game, putting energy into consistency on defense, and working as that secondary playmaker than I would him jack up more shots and average an empty 21ppg.

    16 points + good defense + good playmaking + spacing >>>>>>>> 21 points + meh defense + meh playmaking + bad spacing

  13. #13
    Given BI's similar build, handle, ability to grab a defensive board and push the ball up the court, and flashes of really good playmaking, last season I was really wishing he'd make Lamar Odom his inspiration instead of Durant. Different mentalities though, I fear; Lamar was an incredible team player, made good decisions, and was fulfilled by watching his teammates succeed. BI seems currently driven to prove that he can be an elite scorer in the league at all costs, even if there are are potentially other parts of his game (passing, boards, defense) that could provide greater synergy with the team.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels View Post
    Given BI's similar build, handle, ability to grab a defensive board and push the ball up the court, and flashes of really good playmaking, last season I was really wishing he'd make Lamar Odom his inspiration instead of Durant. Different mentalities though, I fear; Lamar was an incredible team player, made good decisions, and was fulfilled by watching his teammates succeed. BI seems currently driven to prove that he can be an elite scorer in the league at all costs, even if there are are potentially other parts of his game (passing, boards, defense) that could provide greater synergy with the team.
    Man.....people forget how smooth Lamar Odom was back in the day. He could hoop with just about anyone

  15. #15
    He really could! He fit that paradigm of a big playmaking forward that could initiate the offense on his own after a board without getting it to a guard, which just sped everything up, kinda like Lebron and Draymond Green, just more offense and better handle than Draymond and obviously less defense. Prime Odom was one of those player you could pretty much plug into any team and they would immediately be better. Extremely underrated player.

  16. #16
    I’m team Ingram!

  17. #17
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luckyman View Post
    You pretty much have to throw out his Laker stats since he's now playing in a much different system with Gentry.

    And he will be at least this team's 3rd highest scorer. No doubt. You just cant waste 6'9"/6'10" talent like that.
    I’m ready for the season to start and Ingram’s game to do the talking. No sense in going back and forth with some people who did nothing but trash Ingram along with Ball. It wasn’t until we made the trade where some starting back tracking knowing soon these 2 were going to be studs. Ingram very well might be the teams leading scorer where he is that good. When the Lakers decided to start using him the right way he was averaging 25+ ppg. He’s a legit triple double threat who can get you 30 points on any given night while flashing defensive potential with the best wings in the game. He is just 22 years old!!

  18. #18
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    "peak at a sub all-star level" smh lol..

    You would post a video like this my good friend Mr. Pelicanidea..

    Players with an ability to average 28PPG with a high percentage.. (even for a short period of time) While being one of the best isolation scorers in the league at 22 years old don't "peak at sub all-star level".

    Analytics, cant tell you who he is.. he wasn't utilized under optimal conditions.. I guarantee, he will be one of the best players on this team.
    Seems everybody that actually knows basketball gives Ingram nothing but ringing endorsements.. I still have some pretty funny posts saved from a few people around here who trashed Ingram and Ball claiming they were absolute trash and would be average NBA players. The Lakers weren’t even considered a trade partner and anybody that mentioned them was an idiot. I’m pretty darn confident many of us will be right on this one! Best young SF in the NBA!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25 View Post
    Seems everybody that actually knows basketball gives Ingram nothing but ringing endorsements.. I still have some pretty funny posts saved from a few people around here who trashed Ingram and Ball claiming they were absolute trash and would be average NBA players. The Lakers weren’t even considered a trade partner and anybody that mentioned them was an idiot. I’m pretty darn confident many of us will be right on this one! Best young SF in the NBA!
    Agreed.. I've pretty much learned that going back and forth with these types is pointless. They'll continue to post negative, and backhanded compliments on him. By mid season it will become apparent how off the analysis on Ingram was.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    It's funny, back when the trade was undecided and we were still talking about which deals for AD we preferred, people on here were posting the Thinking Basketball analysis of Lonzo Ball as evidence of his high upside, his defensive capabilities, passing skills, etc.

    Now that the trade is over, suddenly only someone like ''you'' [read, me] would post something like this

    I'm sorry, anyone who cites ppg as their argument needs to just stop. Andrew Wiggins average 24ppg for an entire season and he's hot garbage. Thanks for your input.
    PPG is an indicator of ability.. he was also one of the best isolation scorers in the NBA at 22 years old.. I only said what I said because you're consistently and persistently negative on Ingram. Just seemed fitting that you would create a thread like this.

    With that being said, I guess we'll see how it plays out once the season is underway. This isn't a matter me or you can settle with a debate.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    With that being said, I guess we'll see how it plays out once the season is underway. This isn't a matter me or you can settle with a debate.
    Well, we can certainly agree on that much. I was very low on Ingram's first few years in the league, but he has the best possible opportunity to turn it around this year, and (because I root for all of my Pelicans), I very much hope he does.

    I'm not going to make any big judgements on him until Christmas. Gotta give him a good sample size of games to get comfortable and settle into the system, same as everyone else gets.

  22. #22
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    Yea he put up a lot of stinkers during his rookie year, so I get why you feel that way.. I also had my doubts.

  23. #23
    Unstoppable! GuardianAngel25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    Yea he put up a lot of stinkers during his rookie year, so I get why you feel that way.. I also had my doubts.
    Gotta love it when Ingram is judged on his rookie year.. Convenient for people to ignore how young he is as well. I have already compared him to every SF in the NBA and less then a handful have had better stars to their careers and the ones that did are not just stars but super stars.

  24. #24
    I’m still team Ingram!

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    Agreed.. I've pretty much learned that going back and forth with these types is pointless. They'll continue to post negative, and backhanded compliments on him. By mid season it will become apparent how off the analysis on Ingram was.
    Knowledgeable Basketball folks can see that Brandon simply needs to improve his shot in order to become one of the league's ELITE scorers. His length combined with the positions he can play due to his skill set will terrorize other clubs. I'm sure he will work on his shot.

    Hell jrue shot 32% from 3 last year and everybody expects that to climb/ BI is going to shine here

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