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Thread: Brandon Ingram Contract Extension

  1. #1

    Brandon Ingram Contract Extension

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/christo.../#151d33af589c

    Pelicans have to wait til next summer, right?

  2. #2
    In my view, we have to wait.

    Ingram has never had any form of consistency, has been permanently injured since entering the league, and has basically never put it all together. He might well succeed this year and play well, and then we'll all say ''damn, we should have extended the offer early and maybe got a little discount before he went on the market'', but it's better to do that than to panic and throw him the full bag in advance and then have him file in yet another sub-par year.

    If he plays great this year and really breaks out after leaving LA, then we will have to open up the pocketbook in the Summer, but if he breaks out then he will be worth that money, and there aren't actually that many teams with multiple tens of millions of dollars in cap space next year if my memory serves correctly, so it's not likely that he will drum up any kind of massive bidding war scenario.

    Gotta wait and see what we have.
    Paying attention to the next draft too early.

    Tyrese Maxey/Isaac Okoro/Oscar Tshiebwe endorser.

  3. #3
    I think it's 50/50 at best if we should...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by donato View Post
    I think it's 50/50 at best if we should...
    and it worst? lol. I say throw 4/98-110 offer out there. Make him say no.

  5. #5
    I'd offer him up to 4/84. Given what Levert just signed, I think that isn't insulting but could end up being a team favorable contract. I think unless he regresses or totally stagnates or gets hurt again he probably gets near max from someone. One because the free agent class next year is terrible. Two because he plays the hardest position to fill in basketball and is an undeniably talented scorer with two way potential. Given the DVT scare, he might be interested in getting guaranteed set-your-family-up-for-generations money enough to make it workable. Or we see how it plays out. If we don't reach an extension and he balls out and gets his 4 year max from another team would be around 4/117 (or worse yet, a 3+1).

  6. #6
    You guys are nuts. He doesn't deserve those numbers yet in my mind at all.

  7. #7
    You've gotta let the season play out. You can't just throw money at him when you have no idea what that money will lock you into. Everyone has argued that his sub-par performances on the Lakers aren't fully representative of his skill because of coaching, drama, media pressure, Lebron's ball dominance, etc, so if we're going to accept that argument then you also have to realise that our judgement can't be based off whatever he did there. It's tainted.

    So we have to wait to see what he does this year. If he plays at an all-star level, then FINE, we'll have to pay him the big bucks, but if he's playing at an all-star level then it'll be worth it.

    If he doesn't play at a top tier level, then we can offer him the appropriate lower fee. He either takes it or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then that's fine too: we have a bunch of wing sized dudes now who can at least spell minutes at the three, and a billion draft picks. Just play Hart at the 3. Hell, Lonzo's 6'7, he can guard the three without too much issue, and draft a wing.

    There aren't a ton of wings in next year's draft class, but there are a couple, and some of them look pretty decent, and by the time of the draft we'll know what kind of pick we're working with so we'll know if we need to trade up, trade down, or just trade the pick in advance for some established player who becomes available.

    If you offer the money now, you cut off all the options, all the flexibility. Let it play out.

  8. #8
    Won't he be restricted? I'd wait until after the season and match what another team offers. No way at this point does he deserve a max contract.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    You've gotta let the season play out. You can't just throw money at him when you have no idea what that money will lock you into. Everyone has argued that his sub-par performances on the Lakers aren't fully representative of his skill because of coaching, drama, media pressure, Lebron's ball dominance, etc, so if we're going to accept that argument then you also have to realise that our judgement can't be based off whatever he did there. It's tainted.

    So we have to wait to see what he does this year. If he plays at an all-star level, then FINE, we'll have to pay him the big bucks, but if he's playing at an all-star level then it'll be worth it.

    If he doesn't play at a top tier level, then we can offer him the appropriate lower fee. He either takes it or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then that's fine too: we have a bunch of wing sized dudes now who can at least spell minutes at the three, and a billion draft picks. Just play Hart at the 3. Hell, Lonzo's 6'7, he can guard the three without too much issue, and draft a wing.

    There aren't a ton of wings in next year's draft class, but there are a couple, and some of them look pretty decent, and by the time of the draft we'll know what kind of pick we're working with so we'll know if we need to trade up, trade down, or just trade the pick in advance for some established player who becomes available.

    If you offer the money now, you cut off all the options, all the flexibility. Let it play out.
    I’d argue that in all but catastrophic situations, his pedigree, position and age would make something like 4/80 movable. Players like Rudy Gay, Otto Porter, Harrison Barnes were moved as neutral or positive value contracts despite underwhelming throughout their careers and being paid closer to the max than what I’m discussing, and I think Ingram will hold value too. I think it’ll be significantly cheaper than what he would end signing next year in restricted FA, and could make him a more valuable asset and allow for increased flexibility long-term in team building. I can see your viewpoint too, and if he doesn’t sign something that has a good chance of being be team favorable, I agree, let it play out.

    I think regardless of what we do with Ingram, we should be looking to draft more wings next year if we keep that pick. There aren’t enough of those guys in the NBA and it’s probably our thinnest position even with Ingram.

  10. #10
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! kinglio21093's Avatar
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    You're gonna have to pay him eventually. If not, then you lose a big part of the pie you received in the AD trade. Players get way overpaid these days, even on good teams, it's just a nature of the beast in this league. The one thing we can rely on, is that he's never gonna be as terrible as Solomon Hill.

    Just gotta suck it up. Maybe if he doesn't hit 20 ppg, we can leverage in paying a little bit less, but his price tag is gonna be high no matter what.

  11. #11
    Charter Member PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinglio21093 View Post
    You're gonna have to pay him eventually. If not, then you lose a big part of the pie you received in the AD trade. Players get way overpaid these days, even on good teams, it's just a nature of the beast in this league. The one thing we can rely on, is that he's never gonna be as terrible as Solomon Hill.

    Just gotta suck it up. Maybe if he doesn't hit 20 ppg, we can leverage in paying a little bit less, but his price tag is gonna be high no matter what.
    Given his medical issues, there is no way I would commit to a long term deal now. I would wait and see how the season plays out and ensure he does not have any recurrences of the blood clots first.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Biasvasospasm View Post
    I’d argue that in all but catastrophic situations, his pedigree, position and age would make something like 4/80 movable. Players like Rudy Gay, Otto Porter, Harrison Barnes were moved as neutral or positive value contracts despite underwhelming throughout their careers and being paid closer to the max than what I’m discussing, and I think Ingram will hold value too. I think it’ll be significantly cheaper than what he would end signing next year in restricted FA, and could make him a more valuable asset and allow for increased flexibility long-term in team building. I can see your viewpoint too, and if he doesn’t sign something that has a good chance of being be team favorable, I agree, let it play out.

    I think regardless of what we do with Ingram, we should be looking to draft more wings next year if we keep that pick. There aren’t enough of those guys in the NBA and it’s probably our thinnest position even with Ingram.
    His pedigree will mean very little when he's 4 years deep in the league without a single high quality year. Andrew Wiggins had a pedigree, and look at how reviled he is now. Similar sort of position too. Wiggins is only slightly older.

    No offense to Harrison Barnes or Ingram, but there's no world where Otto Porter should be lumped in with them. Is Porter a touch overpaid? Sure. Has he had an underwhelming career? Not at all.

    Otto Porter has been an incredibly impactful player throughout his career, believe it or not. He's not a lead ball handler or anything, but he's very, very good. Last season, Porter ranked 43rd in PIPM, and 17th in DRPM among small forwards: just behind Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum. The year before, he finished 23rd in PIPM, and 2nd in RPM among small forwards: just ahead of Lebron James. He finished that year 3rd in wins added among SFs, just above Paul George. For comparison, Ingram finished that year at 37th among small forwards in wins added, just head of Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, and last year, at 46th, just behind Torrey Craig.

    If Ingram can produce at an Otto Porter level, with that kind of impact on the team, then I'd be happy to throw him $20m per, if not more.

  13. #13
    As someone who has watched nearly every game BI has been in since the Lakers drafted him, you have to wait.

    If there is a time for a fire to be lit under BI, it is this year where he showcase what he is made of to earn that extension.

    IF he shows the urgency and fire Lonzo has on defense (Lonzo's offense is another story) where BI has the potential to be elite on that end, OR he gets his 3pt % up to something a little beyond respectable, OR he shows satisfactory all around skill improvement and a better work ethic/drive while showing his willingness to sacrifice for the team and cut out the entitled ISO nonsense... one of those three scenarios will earn him a lucrative reward.

    If he displays the same lack of intensity, inconsistent play, and me-ball as last year, I will be extremely happy to let him walk so we can spend that cash on a more complementary piece/pieces.

  14. #14
    The biggest problem to me is I see some dumb sonofagun throwing the max at him for absolutely no reason and putting us in an unenviable situation. If we can fool him into signing a team friendly deal, then I wouldn’t be opposed. Really is no right answer here- hindsight will be 20/20 considering on how things pan out.

  15. #15
    If there's no further health concerns, it's hard to imagine he won't get a max offer in restricted free agency. Weak free agent class, etc.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ml wave View Post
    If there's no further health concerns, it's hard to imagine he won't get a max offer in restricted free agency. Weak free agent class, etc.
    Sure, and the only way to judge whether he will be worth that for us is to watch him play.

    If he plays at a high level, then we match the max offer and keep him: he will be worth it, because he's playing at a high level.

    If he doesn't play well, then we let him walk and keep the money and future flexibility: the loss will suck, but it will be the right choice because he would be a horrible long term anchor around the franchise.

    And if he plays at a mediocre level, then we try to keep him at a reasonable deal but let him walk if he holds out for the max.

    You can't do what Griff and Trajan have done, which is set a franchise up to make long term moves in order to be successful for a long time, and then hamstring everything by panic paying a mediocre or bad player. If we're truly about long term, sustainable success, like Griff has said, then you should be willing to wait before throwing cash at people, and willing to let them walk if they will harm the future of the team.

  17. #17
    It's a weak free agency but also only a couple teams with money. No reason to bid against ourselves when we do not know who we are even competing against or how Ingram will return.

  18. #18
    RIP BDJ AUSSIE_PELICAN's Avatar
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    The same ppl asking for an extension will be the first ones to complain when Ingram doesn't live up to it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelicanidae View Post
    Sure, and the only way to judge whether he will be worth that for us is to watch him play.

    If he plays at a high level, then we match the max offer and keep him: he will be worth it, because he's playing at a high level.

    If he doesn't play well, then we let him walk and keep the money and future flexibility: the loss will suck, but it will be the right choice because he would be a horrible long term anchor around the franchise.

    And if he plays at a mediocre level, then we try to keep him at a reasonable deal but let him walk if he holds out for the max.

    You can't do what Griff and Trajan have done, which is set a franchise up to make long term moves in order to be successful for a long time, and then hamstring everything by panic paying a mediocre or bad player. If we're truly about long term, sustainable success, like Griff has said, then you should be willing to wait before throwing cash at people, and willing to let them walk if they will harm the future of the team.
    Oh, I agree totally.

  20. #20
    On the one hand, after watching what little we have seen of NAW, I am already more excited about him than I ever was about BI from when he was drafted.

    On the other hand, I feel an optimism this year about BI for some reason that I haven't felt before. I feel like he must understand that now that he is in NO and is no longer being pumped up as "the next Durant" by the team that drafted him, that Zion and Jrue are THE GUYS, and he must find a way to complement them and not take away from their games if he is going to earn his money. I am just hoping his IQ is high enough to figure that out relative to his ego.

  21. #21
    RIP BDJ AUSSIE_PELICAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels View Post
    On the one hand, after watching what little we have seen of NAW, I am already more excited about him than I ever was about BI from when he was drafted.

    On the other hand, I feel an optimism this year about BI for some reason that I haven't felt before. I feel like he must understand that now that he is in NO and is no longer being pumped up as "the next Durant" by the team that drafted him, that Zion and Jrue are THE GUYS, and he must find a way to complement them and not take away from their games if he is going to earn his money. I am just hoping his IQ is high enough to figure that out relative to his ego.
    This made me laugh. BI doesn't strike me as a high IQ player. Hope I'm wrong.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN View Post
    This made me laugh. BI doesn't strike me as a high IQ player. Hope I'm wrong.
    That's my real concern. He's never struck me as a complete idiot player either, so hopefully he's at least solid, but relying on anyone to be a high IQ guy before they've shown it is a bit of a risk.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN View Post
    This made me laugh. BI doesn't strike me as a high IQ player. Hope I'm wrong.
    based on what?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ColoradoCajun View Post
    based on what?
    I'm not the guy you're replying to, but I would guess it's because of his general lack of off-ball effort, his poor rebounding skills for his height (generally implies an inability to read the ball off the rim), and his mediocre team defense.

    All of that could easily just be a case of effort: maybe he IS high IQ and knows all those things but just didn't feel like LA was giving him reason to give his all. That's a problem in itself, the best of the best should be self motivated, but it would explain away his apparent IQ and effort issues.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
    You guys should really chill on the speculation, especially when it comes to Ingram.. You clearly demonstrate you know nothing about him when you question his IQ.

    It will become apparent to many of you just how clueless you are about him when the season starts. I don't think it's anything that could be communicated here, you'll just have to see it on the court. And you will.
    The fact is that whatever raw box score stats Ingram has put up so far in his career, they have translated to very little in terms of actual winning basketball. That fact is represented in his *ahem* shall we say, less than stellar advanced metrics and impact stats.

    Knowing that to be the case, you have to ask why that is. Why has he failed to be an impactful, winning player so far in his three years in the NBA?

    It's fair to say that he's been injured a lot, so he hasn't had a chance to get the rhythm and minutes other three year guys might have. It's fair to say he's still fairly young. It's fair to say that Lebron and the entire mess around the Lakers last year might have been detrimental to him.

    But it's also fair to ask questions about his actual game, his mentality, and his IQ. Those are normal things that people normally talk about with players, especially new players coming to their team for the first time.

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