December 29th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Phoenix Suns - 2-1

Holy overreactions to one bad game Batman! Lol

This is an extremely young team.

People need to check expectations.

If this is happening in late January or later I will be concerned.

Games like this happen. See Miami and the Clippers.

Mama said there would be days like this...

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Mr...... "I will tell you everything you need to know about draft prospects and how good they will be because I watched some AAU games and a handful of their college games"

now says we can't have an opinion on who a guy may or may not become from a small sample of NBA games. Okay, cool, thats fine. Then, I dont wanna see you make one projection or assumption in your 2021 Draft thread. Because, how could you know? How could you say anything about who may be good or who may not? Zion has at least played some NBA games. Those guys have played none. And most have played very few college games. So....you cant have a projection for them because god forbid I have a projection of Zion that he will be very good but not an all time great. Too early for that!

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lmao, it's not having a projection on a player based on college/NBA games, it's completely changing your projection prematurely because the guy didn't play the way you wanted in a 27 game sample. Like c'mon, stop stretching the truth to fit your agenda, I'm sure Dae requires at least a season sample of college games to make definitive judgements on players... like we all do. Obviously players can ultimately exceed or undermine those expectations coming into the NBA... but the guy's 20 and hasn't played 30 professional games. Just stop.

The real difference to me this game seemed to be 3pt and free throw shooting. It was ugly to watch. Well below expected averages. Two games in a row is a bit concerning, but I dont think we shoot 12% from 3 on the season.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

lmao, it's not having a projection on a player based on college/NBA games, it's completely changing your projection prematurely because the guy didn't play the way you wanted in a 27 game sample. Like c'mon, stop stretching the truth to fit your agenda, I'm sure Dae requires at least a season sample of college games to make definitive judgements on players... like we all do. Obviously players can ultimately exceed or undermine those expectations coming into the NBA... but the guy's 20 and hasn't played 30 professional games. Just stop.

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Yeah, the thing that MM seems to have missed here is that I do not, nor does any competent draft person, try to say that I have the ultimate definitive reading on 30+ players every year. You watch games, sample sizes that might end up being as many as 50 games or more, and you try to construct a range of potential outcomes based on the evidence you have (always being aware that there is a limitation there) and, using examples of past players and your own subjective judgement, you try to come up with a good estimate of whereabouts a player is likely to fall in those outcomes. There are some predictions which are pretty firm, if the indicators are strong and there's a surplus of evidence, and there are some predictions which are very loose, but I don't thing that I can tell you precisely what a player definitely will be or anything. I can just tell you what I think seems likely.

And also, I think it's quite telling that MM's summary of draft scouting is ''some AAU games and a handful of college games''. In many cases it's more like AAU, FIBA, shoe circuits, and then most or all of their college play; it's not like anyone said Zion, for example, was the number 1 pick off the back of 4 college games and a highlight reel. Sorry, but it's a bit more involved than that.

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Originally Posted by Nola3

I can't speak for others, but I have been enormously disappointed in Zion this year. I think we all had high expectations for him, and I don't think it's controversial to say that he has not met them. However, my concerns come because he has noticeably regressed from what we saw at Duke. And that's very concerning.

On offense, he can't score unless he's at the basket and has absolutely no dribble moves, which he showed hints of in college. He also has had all kinds of trouble making basic reads and has resulted in an abysmal 4-11 A/TO ratio. His shooting does not appear to have improved and the only way he has been able to score is if there is a play run specifically for him to get a head of steam going to his left. But, he's huge and athletic and has decent touch, so even if this is all he'll ever be, he's still a great second option on offense.

Defense is where his lack of development and effort really scares me. We've all harped on his inability to make rotations, but that's normal and should be expected from a 2nd year player with something like 25 NBA games under his belt. It's his unwillingness to run out on his man, his Demarcus Cousins-like refusal to get back on defense and his inability to stay in front on anyone because of his need to hop into every movement that make his defense appalling to watch. The recent uptick in steals has been somewhat encouraging, but I haven't noticed many (admittedly an anecdotal account) that have been the result of superlative intuition or fully leveraging his inhuman athleticism. Most of them that I have seen have come from random swiping, which will only continue to breed bad defensive habits.

The obvious caveat here is that I (and I think most others) are grading Zion on an insane curve. He was billed as a franchise savior and a potential successor to LeBron as the clear-cut best player in the league and he has been evaluated as such. Perhaps we need to take a step back and reconsider whether that should be our expectation or if we need to start looking at him as an athletic specimen who can absolutely take over games, but who's flaws need to be covered up in order to have a winning team. I want Zion to have a career that New Orleans basketball has never witnessed and he absolutely has the potential to surpass both AD and CP3. But his current trajectory suggests, at least to me, that those expectations are far too high unless he fixes some of his worst tendencies on the court.

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This is where I stand as well

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, the thing that MM seems to have missed here is that I do not, nor does any competent draft person, try to say that I have the ultimate definitive reading on 30+ players every year. You watch games, sample sizes that might end up being as many as 50 games or more, and you try to construct a range of potential outcomes based on the evidence you have (always being aware that there is a limitation there) and, using examples of past players and your own subjective judgement, you try to come up with a good estimate of whereabouts a player is likely to fall in those outcomes. There are some predictions which are pretty firm, if the indicators are strong and there's a surplus of evidence, and there are some predictions which are very loose, but I don't thing that I can tell you precisely what a player definitely will be or anything. I can just tell you what I think seems likely.

And also, I think it's quite telling that MM's summary of draft scouting is ''some AAU games and a handful of college games''. In many cases it's more like AAU, FIBA, shoe circuits, and then most or all of their college play; it's not like anyone said Zion, for example, was the number 1 pick off the back of 4 college games and a highlight reel. Sorry, but it's a bit more involved than that.

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Right....and I have an opinion on what I think is a LIKELY outcome for Zion but by no means did I say it is certain. But since its not positive, the pushback is "How dare you say what he will be, we only have 30 games!!!""

Do you get my point now?

I have projected what I think hundreds of players futures might look like in the past 10 years or so and never have I had so much vitriol sent my way as when I said what I think Zion is likely to be. And the response is always some form of "you cant even have an educated guess, he has only played X games!!!"

Okay, then we certainly cant have opinions on prospects moving forward, right?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Right....and I have an opinion on what I think is a LIKELY outcome for Zion but by no means did I say it is certain. But since its not positive, the pushback is "How dare you say what he will be, we only have 30 games!!!""

Do you get my point now?

I have projected what I think hundreds of players futures might look like in the past 10 years or so and never have I had so much vitriol sent my way as when I said what I think Zion is likely to be. And the response is always some form of "you cant even have an educated guess, he has only played X games!!!"

Okay, then we certainly cant have opinions on prospects moving forward, right?

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I've seen very similar vitriol before. It was (some times still is) aimed at me about Anthony Davis. People can't take a different take on situations without taking it personally.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Right....and I have an opinion on what I think is a LIKELY outcome for Zion but by no means did I say it is certain. But since its not positive, the pushback is "How dare you say what he will be, we only have 30 games!!!""

Do you get my point now?

I have projected what I think hundreds of players futures might look like in the past 10 years or so and never have I had so much vitriol sent my way as when I said what I think Zion is likely to be. And the response is always some form of "you cant even have an educated guess, he has only played X games!!!"

Okay, then we certainly cant have opinions on prospects moving forward, right?

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Mac, pay no heed. The reason some lash out at you is because they see exactly what you see. But, some are so invested in their 'idol worship' that they can't bring themselves to admitting the obvious truth. To date, based on all pre-draft hype, Zion has failed miserably. This is not to suggest he won't ever be serviceable (he already is serviceable at some level); it only means any sign of 'Superstardom' can't be tied only to his brute strength alone. You have to, at least, be able to play the game, in total, lest you are simply a specialist (see JJ Redick, Dennis Rodman, or Julius Randall for clarification).

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Originally Posted by Nola3

I can't speak for others, but I have been enormously disappointed in Zion this year. I think we all had high expectations for him, and I don't think it's controversial to say that he has not met them. However, my concerns come because he has noticeably regressed from what we saw at Duke. And that's very concerning.

On offense, he can't score unless he's at the basket and has absolutely no dribble moves, which he showed hints of in college. He also has had all kinds of trouble making basic reads and has resulted in an abysmal 4-11 A/TO ratio. His shooting does not appear to have improved and the only way he has been able to score is if there is a play run specifically for him to get a head of steam going to his left. But, he's huge and athletic and has decent touch, so even if this is all he'll ever be, he's still a great second option on offense.

Defense is where his lack of development and effort really scares me. We've all harped on his inability to make rotations, but that's normal and should be expected from a 2nd year player with something like 25 NBA games under his belt. It's his unwillingness to run out on his man, his Demarcus Cousins-like refusal to get back on defense and his inability to stay in front on anyone because of his need to hop into every movement that make his defense appalling to watch. The recent uptick in steals has been somewhat encouraging, but I haven't noticed many (admittedly an anecdotal account) that have been the result of superlative intuition or fully leveraging his inhuman athleticism. Most of them that I have seen have come from random swiping, which will only continue to breed bad defensive habits.

The obvious caveat here is that I (and I think most others) are grading Zion on an insane curve. He was billed as a franchise savior and a potential successor to LeBron as the clear-cut best player in the league and he has been evaluated as such. Perhaps we need to take a step back and reconsider whether that should be our expectation or if we need to start looking at him as an athletic specimen who can absolutely take over games, but who's flaws need to be covered up in order to have a winning team. I want Zion to have a career that New Orleans basketball has never witnessed and he absolutely has the potential to surpass both AD and CP3. But his current trajectory suggests, at least to me, that those expectations are far too high unless he fixes some of his worst tendencies on the court.

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This. And I think the organization is more responsible for Zion's slight disappointment more than the young man himself.

We played him when he clearly wasn't 100% last year. And he's clearly not as quick laterally @280ish as he was at 265ish.

It's better to let gifted players just dominate the ball and be gifted. Trae, Luka, Ja, are just 3 examples in the last 3 years where the franchise just turned the team over to a player and let those guys be special.

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Originally Posted by Nola3

On offense, he can't score unless he's at the basket and has absolutely no dribble moves, which he showed hints of in college. He also has had all kinds of trouble making basic reads and has resulted in an abysmal 4-11 A/TO ratio. His shooting does not appear to have improved and the only way he has been able to score is if there is a play run specifically for him to get a head of steam going to his left. But, he's huge and athletic and has decent touch, so even if this is all he'll ever be, he's still a great second option on offense.

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Wth are yall talking about? No dribble moves? He has consistently and successfully used both a behind-the-back and in-and-out dribble move in his first 30 ish games in this league. Are you going blind when he does this at least twice every game? During the preseason he went right and finished righty against 3 defenders and scored. We talked about that. Offensively, he is FAR FAR ahead of where AD was after just 30 NBA games.

Jesus Christ I gotta avoid this place.

Dang, he hasn't been looking great, but it's just been four games. I believe in the kid, sometimes I wonder though if the injuries really got to him mentally and physically. Defensively he's been disappointing, yet I mean AD wasn't the guy that helped dude win a ring, 20 something games in either. I'm seeing bad tendencies and inconsistencies so far, but I'll give him time to figure it out. I think he will, if not then back to the lottery. lol

His scoring has been there though so that's great imo.

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Originally Posted by wuggie

Dang, he hasn't been looking great, but it's just been four games. I believe in the kid, sometimes I wonder though if the injuries really got to him mentally and physically. Defensively he's been disappointing, yet I mean AD wasn't the guy that helped dude win a ring, 20 something games in either. I'm seeing bad tendencies and inconsistencies so far, but I'll give him time to figure it out. I think he will, if not then back to the lottery. lol

His scoring has been there though so that's great imo.

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Again, nobody is saying he will be a bum. Or to not give him time.

He will be good. But I dont think he has a chance to be that top level (Lebron, peak KD, Kobe, etc).... a guy who could be THE man in 4 playoff series. I dont think he can get there. I think it is a very small chance he gets to current Giannis level. Thats all I am saying -- if you would have asked me when we drafted him, I would have thought that TOP tier was possible. Now, I simply dont. Too many red flags to think that level is possible IMO

This is what happens when the pels are .500 btw.

Better hope they don't get blown out again, I'd hate to see this place during 2-3.

Interesting Read...

https://sports.yahoo.com/m/75ce3181-...A-insider.html

Remember when I used to post a dumpster on fire for every game below 500 we were? Good times.

Now we are 2-2 with a new coach and a completely different approach to the game as last years coach. With our longest tenured players being Zion and then the Lakers players. We lose a game like this and this thread has everything from blow it up to now Zion will never be more than a decent player.

You folks are worth it for the laughs!

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Wth are yall talking about? No dribble moves? He has consistently and successfully used both a behind-the-back and in-and-out dribble move in his first 30 ish games in this league. Are you going blind when he does this at least twice every game? During the preseason he went right and finished righty against 3 defenders and scored. We talked about that. Offensively, he is FAR FAR ahead of where AD was after just 30 NBA games.

Jesus Christ I gotta avoid this place.

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He does the in and out dribble at least twice a game and loses the handle on it almost every time. It worked against the Spurs for the first time in a while. He also doesn't seem to have any counters if someone cuts off his initial plan which far too often results in a charge, fumbled ball, or off target pass. Again, he has so much time to develop and I still err on the side thinking that he'll harness his unfathomable potential. But I think a lot of us were hoping he'd come out of this (admittedly very weird) offseason with noticeable improvements in his game. And I can't really point to any.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Again, nobody is saying he will be a bum. Or to not give him time.

He will be good. But I dont think he has a chance to be that top level (Lebron, peak KD, Kobe, etc).... a guy who could be THE man in 4 playoff series. I dont think he can get there. I think it is a very small chance he gets to current Giannis level. Thats all I am saying -- if you would have asked me when we drafted him, I would have thought that TOP tier was possible. Now, I simply dont. Too many red flags to think that level is possible IMO

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again, four games. jesus christ

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Originally Posted by Nola3

He does the in and out dribble at least twice a game and loses the handle on it almost every time. It worked against the Spurs for the first time in a while. He also doesn't seem to have any counters if someone cuts off his initial plan which far too often results in a charge, fumbled ball, or off target pass. Again, he has so much time to develop and I still err on the side thinking that he'll harness his unfathomable potential. But I think a lot of us were hoping he'd come out of this (admittedly very weird) offseason with noticeable improvements in his game. And I can't really point to any.

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No he doesnt lose the handle almost every time. How can you score at the rate he does and "lose the handle on it almost every time"?

You obviously go blind the countless times he's scored with it, then can suddenly see again when he doesnt. How do you think he gets to the foul line so often?

He has proven numerous times that he can score unassisted to the point that this whole argument is beyond stupid.

And just to put a cap on it, Zion is averaging 21 points and 41% of his buckets are unassisted. Anthony Davis, over the course of a full year, has never been above 37%, which just happened last year. AD's 8th year in the league.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

No he doesnt lose the handle almost every time. How can you score at the rate he does and "lose the handle on it almost every time"?

You obviously go blind the countless times he's scored with it, then can suddenly see again when he doesnt. How do you think he gets to the foul line so often?

He has proven numerous times that he can score unassisted to the point that this whole argument is beyond stupid.

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He's always going to be an incredibly productive offensive player because he's huge, ungodly athletic, and has a blinding first step. That's how he scores at the rate he does and gets fouled all the time. Not through advanced dribble moves. Which, for like the 4th time, is fine! There are basically no other humans on earth who can do what he does on a basketball court and if he never improves a single skill for the rest of his career, he'll still probably end up averaging 20/10. But, there are multiple higher levels for him to reach that aren't available to many players and in order to reach those, he needs to improve on a lot. That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

No he doesnt lose the handle almost every time. How can you score at the rate he does and "lose the handle on it almost every time"?

You obviously go blind the countless times he's scored with it, then can suddenly see again when he doesnt. How do you think he gets to the foul line so often?

He has proven numerous times that he can score unassisted to the point that this whole argument is beyond stupid.

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I posted the stats yesterday and said them on my pod. When he catches the ball on the move (on a cut), he almost always finishes. However, when he iso's and drives from a triple threat or a post possession, he is awful. Like worse than Austin Rivers in those situations first two years bad. High turnover rate, and shoots under 35% in the paint. Its really, really bad.

He also scores a very high percentage of his points when the game doesnt matter and/or isnt close. These are just objective facts. And when you present objective facts that tell fans that one of the top players on their team is great, they love hearing those facts. But when you share them and they are negative, we just dont want to hear it and will attack the people presenting those facts. Or write them off as abberations, flukes, cold streaks, etc.

But go pick any game and watch it from this year -- watch him try to iso or post up when he is not on the move and doesnt have the advantage on the defender. He will either get blocked or slip or lose the handle or put up something ugly 7-8 out of 10 times. Everyone knows his one move and when he is in a triple threat position or in the post, they just overplay his left shoulder and know he is going to the rim. Wish it wasnt true, but it is. And its a shame we cant talk about it more objectively

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Right....and I have an opinion on what I think is a LIKELY outcome for Zion but by no means did I say it is certain. But since its not positive, the pushback is "How dare you say what he will be, we only have 30 games!!!""

Do you get my point now?

I have projected what I think hundreds of players futures might look like in the past 10 years or so and never have I had so much vitriol sent my way as when I said what I think Zion is likely to be. And the response is always some form of "you cant even have an educated guess, he has only played X games!!!"

Okay, then we certainly cant have opinions on prospects moving forward, right?

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I mean, you're trying to tell us to remove the pre-draft evaluation, but that evaluation matters, particularly for a guy that, again, as much as you don't want to hear it, hasn't played a full season's worth of games in the NBA. It has nothing to do with idol worship, I'm sure most would have the same reservations projecting a low ceiling prospect into, say a superstar, based on a 30 game sample in the NBA. I think it would be fair to say that we shouldn't jump to conclusions in that instance either, right? Not when we have a much more comprehensive data set to fall back on (entire pre-NBA career)? And cut it out with the victimhood, no one here is sending you vitriol for your views. If you want to be an edgelord and assert that your projection of a player still in his infancy in the NBA is valid, go ahead. No one cares. It's when you go on to assert that everyone who doesn't think like you is biased that you deserve to, rightfully, be clowned.

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Originally Posted by Nola3

He's always going to be an incredibly productive offensive player because he's huge, ungodly athletic, and has a blinding first step. That's how he scores at the rate he does and gets fouled all the time. Not through advanced dribble moves. Which, for like the 4th time, is fine! There are basically no other humans on earth who can do what he does on a basketball court and if he never improves a single skill for the rest of his career, he'll still probably end up averaging 20/10. But, there are multiple higher levels for him to reach that aren't available to many players and in order to reach those, he needs to improve on a lot. That's all I'm saying.

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Except that's not true. He scores with advanced dribble moves about as much as you can ask a PF. Especially this early in his career. He's not a guard.

Yet he is being compared to Austin Rivers, a guard, at age 20, after only having played 1/3 of a full NBA season.

I'm done with it. I'm out of headache pills.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Mac, pay no heed. The reason some lash out at you is because they see exactly what you see. But, some are so invested in their 'idol worship' that they can't bring themselves to admitting the obvious truth. To date, based on all pre-draft hype, Zion has failed miserably. This is not to suggest he won't ever be serviceable (he already is serviceable at some level); it only means any sign of 'Superstardom' can't be tied only to his brute strength alone. You have to, at least, be able to play the game, in total, lest you are simply a specialist (see JJ Redick, Dennis Rodman, or Julius Randall for clarification).

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garbage troll take, per usual with you.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

I mean, you're trying to tell us to remove the pre-draft evaluation, but that evaluation matters, particularly for a guy that, again, as much as you don't want to hear it, hasn't played a full season's worth of games in the NBA. It has nothing to do with idol worship, I'm sure most would have the same reservations projecting a low ceiling prospect into, say a superstar, based on a 30 game sample in the NBA. I think it would be fair to say that we shouldn't jump to conclusions in that instance either, right? Not when we have a much more comprehensive data set to fall back on (entire pre-NBA career)? And cut it out with the victimhood, no one here is sending you vitriol for your views. If you want to be an edgelord and assert that your projection of a player still in his infancy in the NBA is valid, go ahead. No one cares. It's when you go on to assert that everyone who doesn't think like you is biased that you deserve to, rightfully, be clowned.

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Show me anywhere I ever wrote to remove your pre-draft evaluation. I never told a single soul to do anything.

I said what my evaluation is. And for some reason that gets people fired up. My gut is because, deep down, people are afraid I am right and probably kinda know it themselves.

But I never told anybody to do anything. Unless you tell me I cant evaluate a guy after 30 games. Then, by that logic, none of us can have a prediction on a human being who has played less than 30 NBA games. And if everyone agrees to that, I am cool. I will remove my Zion prediction.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Show me anywhere I ever wrote to remove your pre-draft evaluation. I never told a single soul to do anything.

I said what my evaluation is. And for some reason that gets people fired up. My gut is because, deep down, people are afraid I am right and probably kinda know it themselves.

But I never told anybody to do anything. Unless you tell me I cant evaluate a guy after 30 games. Then, by that logic, none of us can have a prediction on a human being who has played less than 30 NBA games. And if everyone agrees to that, I am cool. I will remove my Zion prediction.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

In what ways has/is Zion "Better"? Because he put up some numbers his first 18 games or so? (then was beyond awful in the bubble, btw - and his team has been a HUGE minus off the court in the bubble and a minus again this year)

Remove the bias. Remove the pre-draft evaluation. In what objective ways has Zion been better as a pro? He puts up more points, which has been proven to be the easiest stat in the boxscore to replace. He hasnt been available, which is more important than any stat. And he still just jogs along all game while Ja goes all out. Ja is also a leader while Zion has shown none of that.

Yes, Grizzlies fans believe that. And yes, I would take Ja today over Zion if I magically had the choice. But since Zion is on our team, I will root for him to be the best player of this generation. But, if I had to bet on it, I think he will fall far below the expectations most people had when he came out

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c'mon man. At least check your posts before you assert you've never said things you obviously said.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Show me anywhere I ever wrote to remove your pre-draft evaluation. I never told a single soul to do anything.

I said what my evaluation is. And for some reason that gets people fired up. My gut is because, deep down, people are afraid I am right and probably kinda know it themselves.

But I never told anybody to do anything. Unless you tell me I cant evaluate a guy after 30 games. Then, by that logic, none of us can have a prediction on a human being who has played less than 30 NBA games. And if everyone agrees to that, I am cool. I will remove my Zion prediction.

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And i'm not even going to go into that, because if I do, i'll say something i regret and get banned. not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

c'mon man. At least check your posts before you assert you've never said things you obviously said.

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You quote tweeted a completely different post of mine and I was referring to what you said there. But the point remains. Either we can have theories of who a player might become, or we cant. And if there is some arbitrary amount of time I have to wait to have one, just let me know how many games that is. And if it is less than 30, then we cant project college players.

All that is sound logic. So, just choose the line and I will adhere to it. If its 89 games, I will have my projection ready after game 90. If its 200, I will have it at 201. But whatever it is, I better not see any projections for college prospects, because they all will have played fewer games than this magical line being set.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

If you want to be an edgelord and assert that your projection of a player still in his infancy in the NBA is valid, go ahead. No one cares.

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Then why are you babbling?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Then why are you babbling?

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Did you forget to read the end of that post, or...

You can tell when emotion gets involved because people stop debating facts, stop adding to the conversation with new facts, etc and then just attack the person making the argument.

Its sad we can't have a quality debate about something this inconsequential. I mean, its a dumb game. A person who doesnt even know or care that any of us exist. And we can't even debate about that. No wonder political discourse is impossible

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

Did you forget to read the end of that post, or...

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LMAO!!!

Mac hasn't asserted that everyone has to think like him. He states his POV and others, like you, can't tolerate it. So it's folks like you that can't bear his opinion...not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

LMAO!!!

Mac hasn't asserted that everyone has to think like him. He states his POV and others, like you, can't tolerate it. So it's folks like you that can't bear his opinion...not the other way around.

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Correct. I would love to have an emotionless debate with someone who thinks the opposite of me on this subject and I would actually LOVE for that person to change my mind because I want so bad to believe that we have a future ultra stud on our team that will lead us to titles. I really, really want to believe that. But from what I see, I cant imagine that happening. But if someone can convince me it might be possible, that would actually make me happy.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

You quote tweeted a completely different post of mine and I was referring to what you said there. But the point remains. Either we can have theories of who a player might become, or we cant. And if there is some arbitrary amount of time I have to wait to have one, just let me know how many games that is. And if it is less than 30, then we cant project college players.

All that is sound logic. So, just choose the line and I will adhere to it. If its 89 games, I will have my projection ready after game 90. If its 200, I will have it at 201. But whatever it is, I better not see any projections for college prospects, because they all will have played fewer games than this magical line being set.

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Again. I have no problems with you having a projection. You can project whenever and whatever you want. But I am providing pushback because

A. This is an online forum, and the purpose of this forum is to share our thoughts/opinions and engage in constructive discourse. Don't get upset when someone challenges your opinion, it's a natural point of conversation. There's no vitriol in that regard

B. Were you not literally claiming in the other thread that everyone who thought Zion still had superstar potential was biased and clouded by pre-draft judgement? And that we as Pelican fans cannot be objective about this for whatever reason? Weren't you that same guy? Saying Grizzlies fans are right to not trade Ja for Zion, and that Ja objectively was better his rookie year? You think you don't deserve pushback for that?

One question, Funcrusher....

At this point in time, does Zion appear to be a cornerstone on which a franchise can build it's program around?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

LMAO!!!

Mac hasn't asserted that everyone has to think like him. He states his POV and others, like you, can't tolerate it. So it's folks like you that can't bear his opinion...not the other way around.

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Nope, try again.

Mac literally did this whole thing in another thread where he hilariously declared we as pelicans fans were all objectively biased if we still at this point would take Zion over Ja. it's all there man. He can dress it up any way he wants, it's all there.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I've seen very similar vitriol before. It was (some times still is) aimed at me about Anthony Davis. People can't take a different take on situations without taking it personally.

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You said Drummond was going to be the better NBA player than AD pretty much on draft day.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Wth are yall talking about? No dribble moves? He has consistently and successfully used both a behind-the-back and in-and-out dribble move in his first 30 ish games in this league. Are you going blind when he does this at least twice every game? During the preseason he went right and finished righty against 3 defenders and scored. We talked about that. Offensively, he is FAR FAR ahead of where AD was after just 30 NBA games.

Jesus Christ I gotta avoid this place.

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I feel your frustration. It is almost as if many were waiting to destroy him if he did not come out walking on water. He has flaws in his game. He needs to develop a mid-range and become a better FT shooter for starters. It is not like he is stinking up the court, but if you read this site, you would think he was playing like a G-League player.

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

Again. I have no problems with you having a projection. We can project whenever and whatever you want. But I am providing pushback because

A. This is an online forum, and the purpose of this forum is to share our thoughts/opinions and engage in constructive discourse. Don't get upset when someone challenges your opinion, it's a natural point of conversation. There's no vitriol in that regard

B. Were you not literally claiming in the other thread that everyone who thought Zion still had superstar potential was biased and clouded by pre-draft judgement? And that we as Pelican fans cannot be objective about this for whatever reason? Weren't you that same guy? Saying Grizzlies fans are right to not trade Ja for Zion, and that Ja objectively was better his rookie year? You think you don't deserve pushback for that?

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You have zero idea what is in my twitter mentions. But whatever, lets get away from the vitriol you dont believe exists and wouldnt care about even if it did

And yes, I do believe all fans have bias. Hence, fans (fanatic). And yes, Ja has had a better NBA career so far. And yes, Grizzlies fans would take Ja over Zion if offered today. As would I. But no, I dont think its insane to prefer Zion - whether you are a Pels fan, a fan of another NBA team, or a Grizz fan. I think there is an argument to be made there. And I would take Ja. My issue was with the person who basically said the Grizz fans were insane if they'd take Ja and my point was that if things we flipped (we took Ja and Memphis took Zion), and things played out the exact same way so far -- the majority of our fans would prefer Ja. And that wouldnt make them insane

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I feel your frustration. It is almost as if many were waiting to destroy him if he did not come out walking on water. He has flaws in his game. He needs to develop a mid-range and become a better FT shooter for starters. It is not like he is stinking up the court, but if you read this site, you would think he was playing like a G-League player.

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That is a gross exaggeration. People on one side doubt he can become an all time great. That he has certain red flags that make it incredibly unlikely he will ever reach THAT level. Nobody (but you) said G League player

If we are to have intelligent debates, we must ACCURATELY lay out our opponents case and make counterarguments against the accurate versions of what they say. What you just did above is called a Strawman

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Originally Posted by Funcrusher

Nope, try again.

Mac literally did this whole thing in another thread where he hilariously declared we as pelicans fans were all objectively biased if we still at this point would take Zion over Ja. it's all there man. He can dress it up any way he wants, it's all there.

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Yet, you say:

"If you want to be an edgelord and assert that your projection of a player still in his infancy in the NBA is valid, go ahead. No one cares."

So which is it, you care, or you don't care?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

That is a gross exaggeration. People on one side doubt he can become an all time great. That he has certain red flags that make it incredibly unlikely he will ever reach THAT level. Nobody (but you) said G League player

If we are to have intelligent debates, we must ACCURATELY lay out our opponents case and make counterarguments against the accurate versions of what they say. What you just did above is called a Strawman

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Did not quote you or reply to you.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Did not quote you or reply to you.

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No, the only First Rounder on our team that has shown, to date, that he's a "G League Player" is Jaxson Hayes. IMO!! And that's not just 28 games.

I will rise above the personal stuff and make my Zion argument clear. If someone disagrees and wants to have an emotionless debate, I would love it. My belief is:

He is limited height and length wise to be an impact two way big a la AD or Giannis, so to be an all time great he would have to do it more like Lebron has as a power perimeter player with all around skill, effort, and intelligence. But he has shown lack of effort and lack of desire to get into absolute peak condition early in his career. That is not the case for all time greats. MJ, Kobe, and others had a lot of skill things they had to work on, but never effort. Never their body.

For Zion to become an all time great level player, he will have to increase his perimeter ball handling, shot making at two of the three other levels, and defense a MASSIVE amount. Massive. On top of that, he will have to shed the tendency to go 1/4 speed for 90 percent of the game and only give one effort, max, per defensive possession.

If it was just skill he had to add, I would say he still has a chance despite being undersized for the position he probably truly is. But when you combine the need for a competitive fire and effort that the greats have, that he doesnt show many signs of having, then I think the odds are massively against him getting to THAT level.

But that is different than saying he is a bum or we should give up on him or whatever other strawmen have been made

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Originally Posted by As I See It

No, the only First Rounder on our team that has shown, to date, that he's a "G League Player" is Jaxson Hayes. IMO!! And that's not just 28 games.

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Thus far, I would have to agree. He probably should have spent some time in the G League.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I will rise above the personal stuff and make my Zion argument clear. If someone disagrees and wants to have an emotionless debate, I would love it. My belief is:

He is limited height and length wise to be an impact two way big a la AD or Giannis, so to be an all time great he would have to do it more like Lebron has as a power perimeter player with all around skill, effort, and intelligence. But he has shown lack of effort and lack of desire to get into absolute peak condition early in his career. That is not the case for all time greats. MJ, Kobe, and others had a lot of skill things they had to work on, but never effort. Never their body.

For Zion to become an all time great level player, he will have to increase his perimeter ball handling, shot making at two of the three other levels, and defense a MASSIVE amount. Massive. On top of that, he will have to shed the tendency to go 1/4 speed for 90 percent of the game and only give one effort, max, per defensive possession.

If it was just skill he had to add, I would say he still has a chance despite being undersized for the position he probably truly is. But when you combine the need for a competitive fire and effort that the greats have, that he doesnt show many signs of having, then I think the odds are massively against him getting to THAT level.

But that is different than saying he is a bum or we should give up on him or whatever other strawmen have been made

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Don't recall anyone saying you said he was a bum. You are entitled to your opinion and I think you made some legitimate points. I am not ready to write off his competitive fire or compare his body to those of much smaller men. However, your points on his defense, shot making and handle are valid. I prefer to see how that develops. If in 2-3 years he has not made significant strides in those areas, I may agree that his ceiling is not as high as many had anticipated.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

You have zero idea what is in my twitter mentions. But whatever, lets get away from the vitriol you dont believe exists and wouldnt care about even if it did

And yes, I do believe all fans have bias. Hence, fans (fanatic). And yes, Ja has had a better NBA career so far. And yes, Grizzlies fans would take Ja over Zion if offered today. As would I. But no, I dont think its insane to prefer Zion - whether you are a Pels fan, a fan of another NBA team, or a Grizz fan. I think there is an argument to be made there. And I would take Ja. My issue was with the person who basically said the Grizz fans were insane if they'd take Ja and my point was that if things we flipped (we took Ja and Memphis took Zion), and things played out the exact same way so far -- the majority of our fans would prefer Ja. And that wouldnt make them insane

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Mac, I wasn't talking about your twitter mentions, forgive me if you misunderstood. I'm strictly talking about THIS FORUM. I have no concern with whatever goes on with you there. I'm sure people can be stupid on there, it's twitter after all.

Of course fans are biased. That's nothing particularly esoteric. But I don't think an evaluation of x player from said player's fanbase inherently has to be clouded by said bias. Perhaps that is the case with the average fan, but I do not believe this forum comprises the average fan. I'm sure, speaking generally, most posters here have the requisite self-awareness to acknowledge that bias, and ultimately move past it. And IMO, there are certain things that, at a certain baseline of logic/rationale, become unarguable. Zion being a better player than Ja to this point is one of those things. If we can't come to an agreement on that, that's fine, but I don't entertain this idea that some conclusions will always be drawn subjectively. There can be a universal logic applicable to all subjects, no matter how small.

And based off of what exactly are you asserting this claim that Zion has been a better NBA player than Ja? Lets start there because i disagree with that

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I will rise above the personal stuff and make my Zion argument clear. If someone disagrees and wants to have an emotionless debate, I would love it. My belief is:

He is limited height and length wise to be an impact two way big a la AD or Giannis, so to be an all time great he would have to do it more like Lebron has as a power perimeter player with all around skill, effort, and intelligence. But he has shown lack of effort and lack of desire to get into absolute peak condition early in his career. That is not the case for all time greats. MJ, Kobe, and others had a lot of skill things they had to work on, but never effort. Never their body.

For Zion to become an all time great level player, he will have to increase his perimeter ball handling, shot making at two of the three other levels, and defense a MASSIVE amount. Massive. On top of that, he will have to shed the tendency to go 1/4 speed for 90 percent of the game and only give one effort, max, per defensive possession.

If it was just skill he had to add, I would say he still has a chance despite being undersized for the position he probably truly is. But when you combine the need for a competitive fire and effort that the greats have, that he doesnt show many signs of having, then I think the odds are massively against him getting to THAT level.

But that is different than saying he is a bum or we should give up on him or whatever other strawmen have been made

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I hope you don't get the impression any of this was personal/emotional on my part. I have no ill will towards you whatsoever. Just providing a divergent opinion/perspective. I'm sure you're a perfectly fine guy, I'm not here to smear your character, particularly on a basketball forum.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

And based off of what exactly are you asserting this claim that Zion has been a better NBA player than Ja? Lets start there because i disagree with that

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I mean? I don't think making that assertion would be that hard. My argument basically goes like this: significantly better scorer (taking into consideration volume + efficiency) + better impact metrics across the board (with the caveat of Zion having a much smaller sample size of games). I would say they're about equivalent as defenders (below average to downright bad), and Ja's obviously a way better on-ball playmaker, though I don't think the difference overall is massive considering Zion provides so much value off-ball. that would be the gist of my argument.

Just let these clowns have their "I told you so" moment. It's whatever.